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Already told you it's multiple verses, not one single verse. If you can't understand what the verses say, I am not going to be able to help any more than I have.
How do Amils typically deal with Revelation 19:7 in light of Revelation 21:2,9-10?
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Already told you it's multiple verses, not one single verse. If you can't understand what the verses say, I am not going to be able to help any more than I have.
Chatgpt might not be spiritually inspired yet it is able to reason things coherently. It obviously doesn't have any doctrinal bias' since it couldn't care less which interpreter might be right or wrong.
In Revelation 19, verse 19 alone proves Christ is coming to the earth in Revelation 19. Unless one wants to argue that the beast and it's armies are on another planet in that verse, such us pluto rather than the earth.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
But the fact is that not one single verse in that chapter says they come down to the earth only that they are in heaven so how can it be multiple verse?
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How does verse 19 prove Jesus coming down to the earth when it doesn’t say that?
Yes the beast and the kings are on the earth but not Jesus or even the saints. Did God come down to the earth when fire and brimstone came down on Sodom and gormora?
Can Jesus not destroy His enemies from heaven where chapter 19 shows Him to be?
The hint is that Chapter 19 describes Jesus fighting with the sword out of His mouth which is His word not a literal weapon so is it even a literal battle or symbolic for victory in Jesus word that overcomes saves and condemns?
Revelation 12
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Did you notice in the verse above that the word is the weapon?
All the chapter says about the saints is that they are in heaven with Jesus there is no mention of them in the destruction of the beast and the kings only Jesus
My point is that the OP is asking amils if the saints coming down from heaven in chapter 19 is the same event as chapter 21 but the bible doesn’t say that in chapter 19 so they are not the same event
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I asked AI for you,
Amillennialism interprets Revelation 19:7, 21:2, and the events in Revelation 9-10 through a symbolic and realized eschatological framework, emphasizing the spiritual and present reality of Christ's reign rather than a future, literal 1,000-year earthly kingdom. Revelation 19:7, which celebrates the marriage supper of the Lamb, is understood as a spiritual event that has already begun with Christ's first coming and is ongoing in the church age. The "marriage" symbolizes the union between Christ and His church, which is realized in the present era of the gospel's proclamation.
Revelation 21:2, describing the new Jerusalem descending from heaven, is interpreted not as a future physical city but as a symbolic representation of the final, eternal state of God's people, which will be fully realized at Christ's return. This new creation is seen as the culmination of the "already/not yet" tension in Christian eschatology—Christ reigns now from heaven, and believers await the full manifestation of His kingdom at the final return.
Regarding Revelation 9-10, amillennialists view these chapters as part of the symbolic and overlapping visions of Revelation, not a continuous timeline. The events described—such as the opening of the bottomless pit, the locusts with human faces, and the little scroll—are understood as symbolic representations of spiritual warfare, divine judgment, and the proclamation of God's message during the church age. The "thousand years" in Revelation 20 is seen as a figurative period representing the entire church age, during which Satan is bound in a spiritual sense, unable to deceive the nations as he once did before Christ's coming. This binding is not a literal restraint but a spiritual limitation on Satan's power, which has been significantly diminished by Christ's victory over sin and death.
Thus, amillennialists reconcile Revelation 19:7, 21:2, and Revelation 9-10 by interpreting them as interconnected symbolic visions that reflect the spiritual reality of the church age and the ultimate triumph of Christ, rather than a sequence of literal future events. The focus remains on Christ's present reign and the anticipation of His final return, which will bring about the complete and eternal fulfillment of God's kingdom.
Then prove it?
You can’t because it doesn’t say that that’s why you are avoiding it check out post #25
I find if you want answers these days, dont ask people, just ask it, you get a far more straighter answer without all the humanity pasted all over it.
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You have been shown more than once by more than one person. You won't or can't accept it, sobeit.
The point I have been making is this. Revelation 19:11 already has the bride of Christ descending out of heaven no matter how you look at it. Because, clearly the dead in Christ that rise first followed by the rapture precedes what is recorded in verses 19-21. Is one going to argue that none of the dead in Christ nor none of the saved that are raptured, that none of these are the bride of Christ?
How many times does the bride of Christ descend out of heaven? Revelation 19:11,14 involves the bride of Christ descending out of heaven and so does Revelation 21:2, 9-10. Yet Amils insist Revelation 19:11, 14 is meaning before/during the GWTJ, and that Revelation 21:2, 9-10 is meaning after the GWTJ. That would obviously add up to that the bride of Christ descends out of heaven twice at different times rather than only 1 time total.
In Revelation 19 it would look like this since we have to use Scripture to interpret Scripture in order to determine what's actually taking place here, something that seems foreign to @Marty fox in this case. Initially the dead in Christ that rise first are already in heaven with Christ before heaven is opened in Revelation 19:11. Except they are in a disembodied state at the time. Then once heaven is opened in Revelation 19:11 they rise first and leave heaven with Christ while putting on bodily immortality in the process.
At this point Christ and those that rise first are eventually in the air(our atmosphere) and descending when those remaining alive on the earth are caught up to them in the air, thus the armies seen in verse 14 that are formed. And which direction do they continue? Verse 19-21 makes it obvious that they continue descending to the earth, not make a u-turn back into heaven instead. IOW, I am determining some of this based on what 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 records, for one.
Everything I have submitted thus far adds up to that the bride of Christ has descended from heaven at this point. Except Amils, such as @Marty fox, apparently do not agree this equals this since Revelation 19:11 makes no mention of anyone coming to the earth in Revelation 19 according to him. Maybe that's because interpreters, such as @Marty fox, don't fully grasp how Scripture interprets Scripture is supposed to work?
And speaking of work, but meaning it in a different sense, Scripture interpreting Scripture involves a little work, some digging, except some interpreters apparently don't care to do a bit of work first and want everything handed to them on a silver platter, so to speak. IOW, unless the text comes right out and says this or that it can't really be meaning this or that, otherwise the text would have come right out and said so. Except this ignores the bit of work involved needed sometimes in order for the text to be saying this or that, thus Scripture interpreting Scripture.
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You keep saying that but not posting the verse that you say says it.
Having a different view isn’t proof it’s a view, I posted the verses that you say show it but they don’t and you can’t prove it so you keep making statements like you just did.
You can’t prove it and you know it so you are being stubborn and avoiding the authority of the scriptures.
Yes they are the bride of Christ but you keep saying clearly they are descending in verse 11 but the verse doesn’t say that so how is it clearl?
Did you read post #25? I gave an explanation of it and used scripture to interpret scripture
Something else I'm trying to prove in this thread, is this. Since it doesn't make sense that the bride of Christ descends out of heaven twice and at different times, this can only mean one thing in that case. Revelation 21:2, 9-10 is not meaning after the GTWJ but is meaning before the GWTJ. Which would then mean that the millennium is the first thousand years of the NHNE except that the NHNE is not in it's final form yet. IOW, the NHNE are a process that begins with the millennium and then is in it''s final state after the GWTJ. Otherwise, both Premils and Amils are left with the only logical conclusion to arrive at in that case, that the bride of Christ descends out of heaven twice and at different times. Except is it really logical that the bride of Christ descends out of heaven twice and at different times? That's what both Premils and Amils need to be asking themselves.
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I may have missed it, so I will look at in now just in case. I will then try and get back to you on what my thoughts are in regards to post 25.
No, if by that you are meaning He did not literally set foot upon the earth at the time, yet He was obviously somewhere nearby within the Earth's atmosphere since it doesn't make sense that He would be raining fire and brimstone down upon the earth from some place light years away from the earth, meaning the heaven where He dwells. Yet, the angels that initially warned about what God was about to do undeniably had set foot on earth at the time. But does that then mean God Himself can never literally come down to the earth , thus set foot on the earth in order to execute any judgments since He didn't do that during the ordeal involving Sodom and G?
Even if Revelation 19:19-21 is involving an aerial assault it would still require having to come down to the earth in order to do so.
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Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
What about this verse? All of these things already happen before anything recorded in Revelation 19 happens.
I tend to think that anything pertaining to God out of heaven doing something, is reliant on context and then using some common sense to determine what is being meant.
For example.
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven ;
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them .
In both examples common sense says that the heaven where God and angels dwell, the same heaven where Christ is presently dwelling, is not the heaven meant here.
While OTOH---
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Common sense says that the heaven where God and angels dwell, the same heaven where Christ is presently dwelling, is the heaven meant here.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Equally, common sense says that the heaven where God and angels dwell, the same heaven where Christ is presently dwelling, is the heaven meant here.
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Yet common sense again says that Christ nor any of the bride of Christ is still in the heaven where God and angels dwell, the same heaven where Christ is presently dwelling, at this point in time, though.
Something else to keep in mind is this, meaning in regards to Revelation 19. Verses 19-21 also involves those that are currently in a disembodied state in heaven. It is absurd that anyone while still in a disembodied state is helping Christ fulfill verses 19-21, in any sense, including a spiritual sense. Everybody knows, well except for maybe Catholics, that the departed have no contact with anyone on earth while in a disembodied state, nor does anyone on earth have any contact with anyone in a disembodied state while they are in heaven awaiting their bodily resurrection. Therefore, nothing in Revelation 19 can be taken to be involving the here and now in a spiritual sense.
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