How does the Theory of Penal Substitution Atonement necessitate the Cross?

[justbyfaith]

"Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee." Jerem. 7:27

God said that to Jeremiah; not necessarily to me.

But if it is to me, I know that I must still fulfill my ministry even as Jeremiah fulfilled his.

Though Jeremiah changed no one in his ministry of truth, it will be said on that day that he was faithful to give the message that God had given to him to give to the people.

Even if there would be no fruit that develops from our ministry, from God's perspective faithfulness is what matters.

Habakkuk 3:17-18.

 

[amadeus]

God said that to Jeremiah; not necessarily to me.

But if it is to me, I know that I must still fulfill my ministry even as Jeremiah fulfilled his.

Though Jeremiah changed no one in his ministry of truth, it will be said on that day that he was faithful to give the message that God had given to him to give to the people.

Even if there would be no fruit that develops from our ministry, from God's perspective faithfulness is what matters.

Habakkuk 3:17-18.

We each must do as God directs us.

 

[Behold]

And does forum credit matter to God?

If a person is on a forum trying to resist the Cross, deny the Grace of God , and accuse God of burning people in the lake of fire, who had no choice to be saved, according to their wicked theology = you can BET they are going to give account to Jesus when they meet Him, as they have spent their entire Christian life spitting on the very CROSS that Jesus died on to save them.
These people HARMED other believers. They ruined the Faith in Christ of anyone and everyone, if they possible can....
So, Yep. They are in for a serious comeuppance when they meet the Holy One they have offended all their Life.

 

[Candidus]

Wouldn't it really be the Father, Son and Spirit all suffering for our sin, even if Jesus is the one holding them?

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." 2 Cor. 5:19

The reason I say that he took our sins on him is Isaiah 53:
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
Or KJV:
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Again, I don't see this as PSA per say, but it certainly seems to indicate that our sins were put on Christ at the cross.

And no I don't understand the mystery of how this can happen to only one part of the God head.

"Surely our grief's He himself bore, And our sorrows he carried: Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, Smitten of God and afflicted, But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed." This is without a doubt the clearest prophecy about the nature of the atonement the Messiah was to suffer. Most who see a penal theme to this have not ever read the prophecy without a preconceived bias. Notice that it says, we esteemed him as stricken, smitten by God. Notice that it does not say that "God esteemed Him as under His wrath! Why would Isaiah write this but for the purpose of showing the stark contrast between the people's erroneous opinion of what happened on the Cross, and what God Himself knows that happened? Those who saw Christ suffer, instead of understanding that he was bearing the weight of the sins of others in a mediatorial capacity, imagined that he was suffering at God's hands for his own sins. God knew that people would misconceive what was transpiring on the cross. The passage does not state implicitly or indirectly that God was to smite him in any way. Penal Substitutionalists force we esteemed Him as stricken, smitten of God..." to mean that God esteemed Jesus as stricken, and under the Father's wrath and punishment. It is clear that Isaiah is pointing out that the "people" just aren't going to get it right! He is setting the record straight in advance to save us from such misconceptions as the Penal Theory!

 

[justbyfaith]

There is a very important word in that passage, "BUT"..."He was pierced through for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities."

If you don't see PSA in these verses, you won't see it anywhere else.

It remains that the doctrine is clearly espoused in this passage and others.

2Co 4:3, But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Enoch111]

The passage does not state implicitly or indirectly that God was to smite him in any way.

People can always fool themselves into believing the opposite of what is written in the Bible. Whose sword of judgment do you think was applied to the Shepherd, and who is the Shepherd?

Awake, O sword, against my Shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zech 13:7)

The LORD hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the Salvation of our God. (Isa 52:10)

Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isa 53:4)

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. (Isa 53:10)

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself:.. (Dan 9:27)

I am the Man that hath seen affliction by the rod of His wrath. He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light. Surely against me is He turned; He turneth his hand against me all the day. (Lam 3:1-3)
[Note: this is prophetic about the crucifixion and sufferings of Christ]

EXPOSITOR'S BIBLE COMMENTARY ON LAMENTATIONS 3:1-3
Nevertheless the application of the poem to the Man of Sorrows is more than a case of literary illustration; for the idea of representative suffering which here emerges, and which becomes more definite in the picture of the servant of Jehovah in Isaiah 53:1-12, only finds its full realisation and perfection in Jesus Christ. It is repeated, however, with more or less distinctness wherever the Christ spirit is revealed.

It is heresy for anyone to deny that the crucifixion of Christ and His sufferings was anything less than God's judgment against sin when Christ was made Sin for us. Therefore we have these Scriptures, as well as Psalm 22:1, which was quoted verbatim by Christ when He was on the cross.

 

[amadeus]

If a person is on a forum trying to resist the Cross, deny the Grace of God , and accuse God of burning people in the lake of fire, who had no choice to be saved, according to their wicked theology = you can BET they are going to give account to Jesus when they meet Him, as they have spent their entire Christian life spitting on the very CROSS that Jesus died on to save them.
These people HARMED other believers. They ruined the Faith in Christ of anyone and everyone, if they possible can....
So, Yep. They are in for a serious comeuppance when they meet the Holy One they have offended all their Life.

This response of yours is why I have avoided posting anything to most of your many threads. Did you really answer my question? Is it hidden in there? How does anyone understand anything about God and His Son?

 

[Candidus]

People can always fool themselves into believing the opposite of what is written in the Bible. Whose sword of judgment do you think was applied to the Shepherd, and who is the Shepherd?

Awake, O sword, against my Shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zech 13:7)

The question is not who is the Sheppard, but who is doing the smiting!

It doesn't say God!

The LORD hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations

; and all the ends of the earth shall see the Salvation of our God.

(Isa 52:10)-

Just throwing something against the wall to see if it sticks?

Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

(Isa 53:4)

God knew that there would be people that would misrepresent the work of Atonement as the Father punishing the Son, that He gave us advance warning or the heresy in this verse! You do not read it, you twist it! "...yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

As plain as the nose on your face, God said that WE would get it wrong! Yes, people can always fool themselves into believing the opposite of what is written in the Bible!

It pleased the LORD to bruise Him

; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

(Isa 53:10)

In what way was God active in bruising the Son? Genesis 3:14, 15, says, "And the Lord God said to the serpent....I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heal." It states clearly that the devil will do the bruising. But the crucifixion could not have occurred apart from God willing, and allowing it happen. In view of this, and that God foreknew the result that atonement would bring, it can be said that God was pleased to bruise him. It brought the desired result; reconciliation between God and man. The Trinity, working as One to reconcile the world to himself.

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." 2 Cor. 5:19

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself:..

(Dan 9:27)

Stick it along side the Jello you nailed to the wall!

I am the Man that hath seen affliction by the rod of His wrath.

He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light. Surely against me is He turned; He turneth his hand against me all the day.

(Lam 3:1-3)
[Note: this is prophetic about the crucifixion and sufferings of Christ]

EXPOSITOR'S BIBLE COMMENTARY ON LAMENTATIONS 3:1-3
Nevertheless the application of the poem to the Man of Sorrows is more than a case of literary illustration; for the idea of representative suffering which here emerges, and which becomes more definite in the picture of the servant of Jehovah in Isaiah 53:1-12, only finds its full realisation and perfection in Jesus Christ. It is repeated, however, with more or less distinctness wherever the Christ spirit is revealed.

If I dig hard enough, I can find someone that comments on Acts 2:1, "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord" to mean that the Apostles all rode around in a Honda.

Have you actually read Lamentations chapter 3? Instead of seeking and obscure alleged proof-text, you would see that this has nothing to do with the Atonement of Christ. "He has broken my bones" cannot be about Jesus, because the Bible says not a bone was broken. "He shuts out my prayers..." God heard Him! "He has filled me with bitterness", is not a description of Jesus Christ on the Cross! "He has broken my teeth with gravel; He has made me cower in the dust." Where do you see that fulfilled?

It is HERESY to say that One Person of the Trinity actively punished Another Person of the Trinity.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is HERESY to say that One Person of the Trinity actively punished Another Person of the Trinity.

It is not heresy; plain and simple. It is in fact a major aspect of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Candidus]

It is not heresy; plain and simple. It is in fact a major aspect of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You cannot divide the Trinity and still have God.

God the Father is seen as a Holy Being that must punish sin, and by necessity, desires that we would be the subject of His wrath. The Son on the other hand, is desirous of interceding and saving us. So by some strange imagination, God the Father is placated by "whooping up" on the Son. Can you see the absurdity of the Godhead punishing itself? It is tantamount to slapping yourself around and saying that makes forgiving others a possibility now, because you claim that God does not need Retributive Justice so He could go easy on Jesus and not really hold Him to the standard He holds us!

Somehow the Second person of the Godhead was separated from the First and Third while on the cross. Can you see the impossible contradiction here? The Trinity is One. If you can separate the Trinity, or take one Person from it, then you no longer have God. God is the Trinity at all times! The Oneness of the Trinity cannot exist if the other Two punished the Son. What we end up with are three Gods instead of One! How could Jesus be God if He were not part of the Trinity? This difficulty vanishes if we believe the Biblical data that Jesus voluntarily suffered for our sins instead of the absurdity of saying that He was punished.

How do we then reconcile the words of God who's voice burst out from heaven saying, "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" and just before he went to the cross Jesus said, "not my will but thy will" and followed through with faithful obedience. How can we believe that the Son, who is the object of blessing could moments later become the subject of wrath while he was in full obedience?

I find it much more tenable to believe that the entire Trinity was at work providing our salvation upon the cross and that God the Father was always well pleased with the Son. The cross was not the scene of the Father hurling the thunderbolts of wrath down upon the Son, but Calvary was the scene of wondrous mercy and love.

 

[justbyfaith]

because you claim that God does not need Retributive Justice so He could go easy on Jesus and not really hold Him to the standard He holds us!

Hold on a sec...are you saying that you believe that Jesus sinned?

If you can separate the Trinity, or take one Person from it, then you no longer have God. God is the Trinity at all times! The Oneness of the Trinity cannot exist if the other Two punished the Son. What we end up with are three Gods instead of One!

The Trinity exists in three distinct Persons.

How could Jesus be God if He were not part of the Trinity? This difficulty vanishes if we believe the Biblical data that Jesus voluntarily suffered for our sins instead of the absurdity of saying that He was punished.

Yet, the scripture is clear that He became sin for us in order that we might become the righteousness of the Lord in Him.

How can we believe that the Son, who is the object of blessing could moments later become the subject of wrath while he was in full obedience?

Because He didn't suffer for His own sins but for ours.

I find it much more tenable to believe that the entire Trinity was at work providing our salvation upon the cross and that God the Father was always well pleased with the Son.

This is true. When God the Father punished Jesus on the Cross He continued to be pleased with Him...His wrath upon Jesus was against the iniquity of us all which was laid upon Him.

The cross was not the scene of the Father hurling the thunderbolts of wrath down upon the Son, but Calvary was the scene of wondrous mercy and love.

It is indeed a scene of God's love to us as sinners, in that the justice of God is satisfied through our sin being punished in Jesus on the Cross.

 

[Enoch111]

It doesn't say God!

It does not have to say God. It is plain as day.

 

[Candidus]

It does not have to say God. It is plain as day.

It is sad that you feel so free to impugn God's character with eisegesis.

 

[Behold]

Wouldn't it really be the Father, Son and Spirit all suffering for our sin, even if Jesus is the one holding them? The reason I say that he took our sins on him is Isaiah 53:
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
Or KJV:
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Again, I don't see this as PSA per say, but it certainly seems to indicate that our sins were put on Christ at the cross.

Jesus became our sin on the Cross, and we become His Righteousness.

Welcome to being BORN AGAIN.

 

[Candidus]

Hold on a sec...are you saying that you believe that Jesus sinned?

You can only punish the guilty. "Sin" cannot be punished.

So, "Who" was "punished" on that Cross?

The Trinity exists in three distinct Persons.

And you also say that God is not a Trinity. Tri-Theism is not Biblical; God is One. He is always One. God cannot exist if He can be divided. You cannot go down the street in a parade and flagellate your torn and bloody back and say that you have atoned for your own sins.
When a murderer that is about to be executed for their crimes commits suicide, did they cheat Justice, or did they Pay Justice? Punishing yourself does not prove Unity and Love for yourself, but hate and loathing of the self.

Yet, the scripture is clear that He became sin for us in order that we might become the righteousness of the Lord in Him.

Yet, since there would be no supporting passages in Scripture to say exactly what "became sin" is, you will find that the statement demands explanation. Jesus did not become "sin itself," or "Sinful" in any way. If He did, then He deserved to be crucified and deserves and Eternal Hell. He died for His own sin if ours truly became His own.

Sin cannot be transferred anymore than righteousness can. That would be a mysticism that has no Scriptural support. This verse, used in isolation and not compared with other Scripture can lead to all kinds of imaginary doctrine. If the interpretation of a verse stands alone, and the weight of other Scripture is against it, it is not a correct interpretation.

Because He didn't suffer for His own sins but for ours.

Yes! He did suffer because of our sins! He was not punished; He suffered! God did not punish Him.

This is true. When God the Father punished Jesus on the Cross He continued to be pleased with Him...His wrath upon Jesus was against the iniquity of us all which was laid upon Him.

God cannot be Just and Unjust at the very same moment. God cannot be Love and pour wrath upon Himself at the same moment. God slapping His face in front of a mirror would be as useful as if i whipped my back raw to atone for my sins.

It is indeed a scene of God's love to us as sinners, in that the justice of God is satisfied through our sin being punished in Jesus on the Cross.

God did not punish Jesus on the Cross. You have nothing to show that!
Sin is a non-entity; it cannot be punished.
It is not Justice to punish the innocent, the innocent can only suffer. That is why the Scriptures never say that Jesus was punished, but ALWAYS say that He "suffered."
In order for a man to be punished, he must be guilty. To inflict what is due for punishment upon an innocent man is an injustice. But if a man voluntarily suffers in another's place to whom punishment is due, it is self-sacrifice and heroism. If it is inflicted by an arbitrary authority, it is injustice on one side, and martyrdom on the other. If I go to prison on the charge of murder, but I am innocent, then I am not punished, because I am not guilty. All I suffer is an injustice. Punishment is a legal term that presupposes guilt. It is an impossibility to punish the innocent. You cannot punish the innocent; they can only suffer the punishment due to the guilty.

You, by way of Berkhof, have already admitted that God accepted something other than an exact Retributive Justice because Jesus did not pay the non-negotiable Wages of sin... Eternal separation from God in Hell. The Atonement of Christ was not God the Father punishing the Son; the death of Christ was not Divine punishment, but a Substitute for punishment.

 

[Candidus]

Jesus became our sin on the Cross, and we become His Righteousness.

Welcome to being BORN AGAIN.

Welcome to Heathen philosophical fiction.

 

[Renniks]

Jesus became our sin on the Cross, and we become His Righteousness.

Welcome to being BORN AGAIN.

I've been born again since 1987.
I agree that Christ became sin for us. There are still aspects of how that works I don't claim to fully understand, but that's ok.

 

[justbyfaith]

"Sin" cannot be punished.

It is only justice that sin should be punished.

So, "Who" was "punished" on that Cross?

Jesus was punished on our behalf and in our place.

And you also say that God is not a Trinity.

I do not teach against the Trinity. If there is any place where God becomes three rather than One, it is when Jesus died upon the Cross and He cried out, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus did not become "sin itself," or "Sinful" in any way. If He did, then He deserved to be crucified and deserves and Eternal Hell.

Then He did indeed deserve to be crucified; but not for His own wrongdoing.

He died for His own sin if ours truly became His own.

Then He died for His own sin; while it is also true that He in His life never committed one singular act of iniquity.

Sin cannot be transferred anymore than righteousness can.

I think that you do not see the testimony of the Old Testament about animal sacrifices. A man would place his hands on the head of the animal before it would be sacrificed; and this would be representative his sins being transferred to the animal.

Yes! He did suffer because of our sins! He was not punished; He suffered! God did not punish Him.

So I don't see what your beef is about PSA then. If you actually believe the above statement, then it is only a game of semantics.

God cannot be Love and pour wrath upon Himself at the same moment.

Love requires justice. So God can indeed be love and pour wrath out upon Himself in the same moment.

God did not punish Jesus on the Cross. You have nothing to show that!

It is a prevalent theme throughout all of scripture.

But if a man voluntarily suffers in another's place to whom punishment is due, it is self-sacrifice and heroism.

So, what's your beef with PSA? it seems to me to be a matter of semantics.

It is an impossibility to punish the innocent. You cannot punish the innocent; they can only suffer the punishment due to the guilty.

Again, this is in conjunction with PSA, so what's your beef with it? It is a game of semantics that you seem to be playing.

You, by way of Berkhof, have already admitted that God accepted something other than an exact Retributive Justice because Jesus did not pay the non-negotiable Wages of sin... Eternal separation from God in Hell.

I am not Berkhof. Jesus did indeed suffer the equivalent of everlasting punishment in hell for all of those who would be redeemed. If we are each valued at 1, and He is valued at 1,000,000, then He could die for 1,000,000 souls. yet, He is valued at infinity.

The Atonement of Christ was not God the Father punishing the Son; the death of Christ was not Divine punishment, but a Substitute for punishment.

Again, it seems that you are playing a semantics game.

 

[Behold]

Welcome to Heathen philosophical fiction.

Speaking for yourself again?

 

[Behold]

I've been born again since 1987.
I agree that Christ became sin for us. There are still aspects of how that works I don't claim to fully understand, but that's ok.

Where most believers "can't see it", has to do with just one thing, really...
Its this..
Salvation, is not what you do.... It's what JESUS did for you, on the Cross, that God gives to you as "the gift of Salvation".
So, as you are trying to push through the theological junk you find on all Christian forums trying to find some Light and some depth, just notice if the person who is talking about things related to salvation is giving all the Credit to the Cross and Jesus's Blood, or if they are trying to teach that YOU have to work at it, to keep it. = salvation.
This is how you instantly recognize those who are not saved, and those who are but are heretics. (Legalists).
Just completely ignore anyone in a pulpit, on a TV, or on a Forum who tries to teach you this..

1. You can lose your salvation

2. God chooses some for hell and does not allow them their free will to Choose Christ, instead

3. That you have to keep yourself saved.

If you just notice who is teaching these 3 Heresies, you can protect yourself and your family from being "faith ruined".
As these people who teach those 3 heresies, literally have as their "ministry" the desire to ruin your Faith in Christ, and your Hope in God.