How old was Mary when she became pregnant? {How does that affect our view on the age of consent deba

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

From what I've heard it's estimated between 12-16 yrs and the latter being most likely.

How should one(christian) think about the age of consent, when such a thing shifts as the sands of tides do and political and minority groups seek to influence it according to their own agenda?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent​

 

[afaithfulone4u]

We must keep in mind that the morals and honor of marriage back then were totally different than in ours.
God established the puberty age according to when men and women could be mature in body to reproduce. Back then marriage was protected and honored.
Now days the devil has the media slathered with sexual temptations to get women to believe they will be more acceptable if they are the initiator and seducer of men being the Jezebel spirit for her intensions are not for family upbringing (for the most) but to fulfill carnal lusts.

And most men do not seek a woman for a wife to raise his seed, but to see how many young girls he can put on his "Hit" list with self centered motives and they don't include marriage for their morals are corrupted.
God is the Creator and knows what is good for us however due to the corruption of man's morals, I believe that the parents should be the judge of their own child's maturity for marriage after they reach puberty.
A number such as 18 yrs. means nothing and society has just had to MAKE A LAW of age of accountability because parents have raised lawless children in our generation with no morals nor understanding that sex is not just something to do to pass the time or to have fun... but God ordained it for bonding of the couple to raising families.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

We must keep in mind that the morals and honor of marriage back then were totally different than in ours.
God established the puberty age according to when men and women could be mature in body to reproduce. Back then marriage was protected and honored.
Now days the devil has the media slathered with sexual temptations to get women to believe they will be more acceptable if they are the initiator and seducer of men being the Jezebel spirit for her intensions are not for family upbringing (for the most) but to fulfill carnal lusts.

And most men do not seek a woman for a wife to raise his seed, but to see how many young girls he can put on his "Hit" list with self centered motives and they don't include marriage for their morals are corrupted.
God is the Creator and knows what is good for us however due to the corruption of man's morals, I believe that the parents should be the judge of their own child's maturity for marriage after they reach puberty.
A number such as 18 yrs. means nothing and society has just had to MAKE A LAW of age of accountability because parents have raised lawless children in our generation with no morals nor understanding that sex is not just something to do to pass the time or to have fun... but God ordained it for bonding of the couple to raising families.

So where should christian parents get their wisdom from when determining what age is acceptable. Surely their mind doesn't exist in a vacuum, so somewhere their knowledge base is increased to make judgement, but from where? Where should the christian parent go to get wise counsel so as to guide their children?

 

[Hepzibah]

There are just so many things wrong with thinking that Mary was a young girl of 12-16.

First of all, a girl`s body has not finished growing at this age - it is about 18 for girls and 21 for males. A pregnancy at this age would take up the nutrients needed by her own body and especially calcium. Pregnancy is a great stress to the body and emotions. Would God follow the practices of mankind that are most often ruled by financial interests?

Then there is the emotional support a young girl would need from her relatives especially her mother at such a time and more so during such an arduous journey down to Egypt. In traditional societies, women perform these duties, sexes have very clearly defined roles. It would just be too much for a young girl, but possible for an older woman who would have the knowledge and experience to carry it out as she would have seen so many pregnancies and births not to feel intimidated by the processes of her body at that time..

Then there is the consideration that God has often chosen older women even beyond child bearing age, to bear a prophet, like the mother of John the Baptist and Isaac`s mother. Children are much safer and more secure with older mothers and even more so if it is the first child. Young girls just do not have the ability to take on this responsibilty alone. How much more would this be needed considering the hatred of Satan and his wish to destroy the growing child.

The trip Mary made to visit her cousin Elizabeth during the later months of her pregnancy sounds highly unlikely to me if Mary was a young girl needing guidance and protection rather than a woman as yet unmarried but close to her cousin in age and able to give her the support she needed rather than be an extra responsibilty to a heavily pregnant woman and leaving the work she would have had in helping her own mother at home with younger siblings - the role this age of girls would have in the home.

To me, Mary sounds like she was a mature woman by the words she used and atittudes she had. I find it much more believable that the couple were of a mature age and more fitted to the role they had and the dangers they faced.

A few other clues are there - the timing of the death of Joseph, and the fact that Jesus asked John to take over the care of His mother at His death - it is my understanding that Joseph`s brothers or near relatives would traditionally marry the widower had she been still of chiildbearing age. If Mary was aged about 70 or even more, then her carers would not have been so easy to find.

 

[jimmyjames]

There are just so many things wrong with thinking that Mary was a young girl of 12-16.

First of all, a girl`s body has not finished growing at this age - it is about 18 for girls and 21 for males. A pregnancy at this age would take up the nutrients needed by her own body and especially calcium. Pregnancy is a great stress to the body and emotions. Would God follow the practices of mankind that are most often ruled by financial interests?

Then there is the emotional support a young girl would need from her relatives especially her mother at such a time and more so during such an arduous journey down to Egypt. In traditional societies, women perform these duties, sexes have very clearly defined roles. It would just be too much for a young girl, but possible for an older woman who would have the knowledge and experience to carry it out as she would have seen so many pregnancies and births not to feel intimidated by the processes of her body at that time..

Then there is the consideration that God has often chosen older women even beyond child bearing age, to bear a prophet, like the mother of John the Baptist and Isaac`s mother. Children are much safer and more secure with older mothers and even more so if it is the first child. Young girls just do not have the ability to take on this responsibilty alone. How much more would this be needed considering the hatred of Satan and his wish to destroy the growing child.

The trip Mary made to visit her cousin Elizabeth during the later months of her pregnancy sounds highly unlikely to me if Mary was a young girl needing guidance and protection rather than a woman as yet unmarried but close to her cousin in age and able to give her the support she needed rather than be an extra responsibilty to a heavily pregnant woman and leaving the work she would have had in helping her own mother at home with younger siblings - the role this age of girls would have in the home.

To me, Mary sounds like she was a mature woman by the words she used and atittudes she had. I find it much more believable that the couple were of a mature age and more fitted to the role they had and the dangers they faced.

A few other clues are there - the timing of the death of Joseph, and the fact that Jesus asked John to take over the care of His mother at His death - it is my understanding that Joseph`s brothers or near relatives would traditionally marry the widower had she been still of chiildbearing age. If Mary was aged about 70 or even more, then her carers would not have been so easy to find.

Very important to study. After the flood the royal blood line continued from Noah and Shem in Genesis 11:10. No where will you read that anyone was under the age of 16. When God selects Abraham and Sarah it is all about sending his son unto us through the Father and Mother of the Hebrews. Isaac is actually the first of hebrews not to worship idols. He is loyal only to God throughout his life. God makes Isaac and Rebekka wait 20 years. And we all know God does everything with Good Intentions. To make this as short as I can for yout to read, these 20 years are symbolic of the age of the woman to give birth unto Jesus. Mary was 20 years old when she conceived. I wish I could go into the details of this with you, but if you study and reflect on what little information is provided you will also believe that Mary was 20 years old.

 

[Polt]

How should one(christian) think about the age of consent, when such a thing shifts as the sands of tides do and political and minority groups seek to influence it according to their own agenda?

Age of consent for fornication is something different from age of consent for marriage.

.No, Mary was not as old as 20. That's ridiculous. What was she doing between puberty and 20? She wasn't going to school. She wasn't starting a career. And, she wasn't fornicating while working a part-time job.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Age of consent for fornication is something different from age of consent for marriage.

.No, Mary was not as old as 20. That's ridiculous. What was she doing between puberty and 20? She wasn't going to school. She wasn't starting a career. And, she wasn't fornicating while working a part-time job.

You have got yourself in some supernatural twist. I could try to decipher your message, but I'm not going to. That's for you to get your own head straight and follow the rules of logic and communication.

 

[Polt]

A few other clues are there - the timing of the death of Joseph, and the fact that Jesus asked John to take over the care of His mother at His death - it is my understanding that Joseph`s brothers or near relatives would traditionally marry the widower had she been still of chiildbearing age. If Mary was aged about 70 or even more, then her carers would not have been so easy to find.

How do you put so much thought into this and still reach such a ridiculous conclusion? When Mary was found to be pregnant, Joseph didn't ask how that's possible at her age, he thought Mary was unfaithful. When Mary was found to be pregnant, she didn't ask how that's possible at her age, she asked how it's possible given that she's a virgin. How's it possible that the Bible fails to remark on such a miracle as a post-menopausal women giving birth (and, offered as further evidence of the divine nature of the pregnancy)? Are we to believe that Mary was past 100 during the period of Jesus's ministry, and yet not a hint is given of her practically unheard of at the time advanced age?

It has been pointed out that the Hebrew word cited by Matthew regarding the virgin birth also means a young woman. Church tradition places Mary at 12 to 14 at the time of Jesus's birth.

But, forget all that. You think pregnancy places too much stress on a woman's body before she's 18. You think a young woman of 14, in the company of her probably older husband, is too young to travel. You think because Joseph apparently died before Jesus' ministry that Mary had to be old. You're wrong, wrong, and wrong. It's very easy for a 14-year-old to stay healthy and deliver a healthy baby. It's very easy for a young teenager to travel with her husband. It's very easy for Joseph to have died at time when dying young was very common.

You're confusing modern excuses for putting off marriage with the reality of early marriage among righteous women in Bible times.

 

[Hepzibah]

If you had read my post correctly then you would see I did not think Mary was post menopausal.

The word used for virgin merely means a woma who had not been married.

The possibilty of a young virginal girl of 12-16 having an affair in a strict moral society is ridiculous but that would have been the only conclusion ridiculous as it was

 

[Polt]

If you had read my post correctly then you would see I did not think Mary was post menopausal.

The word used for virgin merely means a woma who had not been married.

The possibilty of a young virginal girl of 12-16 having an affair in a strict moral society is ridiculous but that would have been the only conclusion ridiculous as it was

"70 or even more" is very postmenopausal

In that time and place, an unmarried woman equates with a virgin, unless she's being called whore. And, Mary explains that she has never had sex.

Do you really think a teenage girl having sex is less likely than a virgin birth?

 

[Hepzibah]

70 was my estimation of her age at her son`s crucifixion.

At that time and with that culture, a teenage girl would not be having sex. Fathers would see to that.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

70 was my estimation of her age at her son`s crucifixion.

At that time and with that culture, a teenage girl would not be having sex. Fathers would see to that.

Prove it.

 

[Polt]

70 was my estimation of her age at her son`s crucifixion.

At that time and with that culture, a teenage girl would not be having sex. Fathers would see to that.

Sorry, I took the age 70+ to be an answer to the topic (and, rereading your post, that still looks like an idea you had in mind). But, it's not realistic to think Mary was about 40. And, your only evidence of this is your own impression of how mature Mary seems to be.

An unwed teenage girl at that time and place usually wouldn't have sex, but it happens. And, your argument is 100% horse pucky that Joseph wouldn't have thought a pregnant teenager had sex.

 

[Hepzibah]

Women did not live a public life in those days. They spent their time in the home of either their father or husband and had no rights - only the man could instigate divorce. Women were merely chattels. The usual age of betrothal was 12 and the couple would marry officially a year later, with the prospective husband providing financially for his future wife during this time. Sex was banned and even in marriage was limited to certain times in the womans menstrual cycle . If a girl of that age, with the restrictions that were in place over her appearance outside the home (only allowed if she was accompanied by a male) was found to be with child, then it was highly likely to be by someone in her home, and at the age of 12, even today, it is classed as rape and of course it was the woman who would be shamed by it.

To imagine a young girl of 12 in those circumstances sneaking out to have sex with a male is just too preposterous to imagine, having all possibilities of having a `boyfriend` out of bounds and as much so to imagine a girl of that age travelling alone to visit her cousin and who scripture says was told by an angel Behold thy cousin Elizabeth , she ALSO hath conceived a son in her old age Luke 1:36.

Putting things together, if Elizabeth was post menopausal, then her cousin was likely of a similar age group, though I judge that Mary was not as old. Her still remaing unmarried could possibly be because the normal marriage arrangements had not occured with her for some reason. Maybe her mother died young and she was kept on to look after her siblings. I guess her to be about 40 but of course cannot prove it. I am just reading between the lines not having enough knowledge of the customs of that time to do more than guess about this.. But anyway, it would suit the purposes of God.


Regarding the journey to Egypt, I just do not believe that God would leave a young girl with of that age without feminine help at a late stage of pregnancy with only a man without any experience of the needs of that condition, to give assistance . An older woman however would have seen it many times amongst her relatives, and would therefore not be left in ignorance or in danger of such a huge temptation to worry, the occasion of that being so harmful to the foetus.

My expereince of the workings of God is that He allows the natural laws He has set up to take place but intervenes at times but does not place children in impossible situations, or even adults, in order to fulfill His will, without lengthy periods of preparation involving suffering.

Mary speaks and acts as a mature woman not as a girl of 12 at that time.


Sorry if you dont like your long term beliefs challenged but I cant see any evidence for the claim that she was a typical early teens Jewish girl of possibly 12-13 years of age (most were this age from what I have read) there are just too many issues that go against it though of course a young pretty girl makes nicer statues. Maybe she was very ugly and that is why she remained unmarried for so long.

The response of the innkeepers is strange too - who would be so heartless to refuse help to such a sight as a young girl ready to deliver but the sight of a mature woman - well - who knows what sort of people that wouild be .

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The conclusion

To imagine a young girl of 12 in those circumstances sneaking out to have sex with a male is just too preposterous to imagine, having all possibilities of having a `boyfriend` out of bounds and as much so to imagine a girl of that age travelling alone to visit her cousin and who scripture says was told by an angel Behold thy cousin Elizabeth , she ALSO hath conceived a son in her old age Luke 1:36.

Putting things together, if Elizabeth was post menopausal, then her cousin was likely of a similar age group, though I judge that Mary was not as old. Her still remaing unmarried could possibly be because the normal marriage arrangements had not occured with her for some reason. Maybe her mother died young and she was kept on to look after her siblings. I guess her to be about 40 but of course cannot prove it. I am just reading between the lines not having enough knowledge of the customs of that time to do more than guess about this.. But anyway, it would suit the purposes of God.

Regarding the journey to Egypt, I just do not believe that God would leave a young girl with of that age without feminine help at a late stage of pregnancy with only a man without any experience of the needs of that condition, to give assistance . An older woman however would have seen it many times amongst her relatives, and would therefore not be left in ignorance or in danger of such a huge temptation to worry, the occasion of that being so harmful to the foetus.

My expereince of the workings of God is that He allows the natural laws He has set up to take place but intervenes at times but does not place children in impossible situations, or even adults, in order to fulfill His will, without lengthy periods of preparation involving suffering.

Mary speaks and acts as a mature woman not as a girl of 12 at that time.

The idea that Elizabeth and Mary were cousins is problematic for two reasons: (1) the former was from the tribe of Levi and the latter from the tribe of Judah; (2) the Greek word translated cousins can and does mean fellow countrymen. In fact, this word is translated in the NT far more this way than cousins (only twice in Luke pertaining to Mary).

The more realistic and likely scenario is that the elder Elizabeth was the younger Mary's close confidant and role model, but not her cousin. Levites were society's teachers in those days, and Mary had likely developed a relationship with her either in Judah or Nazareth. It is possible that Mary lived before in Judah, or that Elizabeth lived before in Nazareth; Levites did move from city to city as needed. Mary probably fled to Judah to avoid the scandal in Nazareth of being pregnant at such a young age without a husband, and needed the support of someone who wouldn't judge her.

Also, women were far more capable and knowledgeable about childbirth are rearing kids than they are today. To compare that culture and age with the norms of this age and culture is simply ridiculous. I dated a woman once who gave birth to her first child at 16. Not normal for society at large, but not uncommon for that area. The Boston bomber's mother gave birth to her first child at 16. Not normal for this country, but apparently so for Chechnya.

Also, the trip to Egypt was probably not as hazardous as one might think. Joseph probably joined a caravan along that heavily traveled route, and was a man of means due to all of the wealth that the magi from Babylon had given him.

 

[Polt]

To imagine a young girl of 12 in those circumstances sneaking out to have sex with a male is just too preposterous to imagine, having all possibilities of having a `boyfriend` out of bounds and as much so to imagine a girl of that age travelling alone to visit her cousin and who scripture says was told by an angel Behold thy cousin Elizabeth , she ALSO hath conceived a son in her old age Luke 1:36.

Regardless of May's age, she was pregnant. And, regardless of age, Joseph reached the only natural conclusion possible, that Mary had an affair. It's purely ridiculous for you to argue that Mary couldn't have been young because young girls (in that time and place) didn't have affairs. In all times and places, unwed young girls have had affairs, even if it was rare at times. And, point in fact, Mary didn't have an affair.

Your reading of Luke 1:36 is incorrect. Elizabeth had a baby in spite of being barren. Mary had a baby in spite of being a virgin. The only point of Luke 1:36 is to provide Mary with example of a miraculous pregnancy. It's not that Mary is "also old" it's that she "also had a miraculous conception." That's the whole point of that verse.

 

[Hepzibah]

ChristRose

From all the information I have read, women only mixed within their families in the family home.

Yes I am sure that they were more knowledgeable about birth and death, but still, a first birth is very risky and is usually something that takes a bit of time. Its more than a matter of being knowledegable - what is needed is someone helping who knows when things are going badly and can guide the mother. Birthing a baby is somewhat different to watching it take place to someone else. The mother if very young is usually overwhelmed with the pain.

I think you are granting a young woman far more freedom than she would actually have but it is reasonable to assume that the couple did not travel alone..

You know, I am not saying that Mary MUST have been an older woman, I am just pointing out that there is little evidence that she was not but much to suggest that she was. It was just far too much for what is basically just a child to deal with. I am assuming I am speaking to men who really have no idea what childbirth is like even if they have watched their wives deliver. Times this by a girl of 12ish whose bones have not fully grown yet and it is beyond credibility to think that a girl removed from her family especially her mother would have been ordained by God to do it.


Polt

There is no indication at all that Joseph thought she was pregnant because she had had an affair. The pregnancy, according to the customs would have most likely or absolutely have been rape from someone in her household. Anyway young girls do not have affairs - they fall in love and are pushed into sex to avoid the relationship ending - sex is something that young girls who have not been corrupted are pretty scared of.

How would she have the ability to leave her home for a tryst if she was chaperoned?