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"Husband of one wife"

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Berean, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. A_Man

    A_Man Active Member

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    Brother (or sister?), I am seeing some problems with the logic of your arguments. For one thing, I am not a KJV-onlyist other translations say "if I have the gift of prophecy." And we can get this sense out of the KJV. Had Paul given his body to be burned at this time? He was still alive when he wrote the letter and tradition says he was beheaded. He is making a hypothetical argument here.

    Why not look at chapter 9 where Paul asks who pastors a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock.

    But equating the pastor role with the elder role has an aspect of church tradition to it, too. Whose to say someone cannot have the pastor and teacher gift without being ordained as an elder or overseer? One is a gift and the other is an ordained role. Those with gifts could fall into sin or just not be in a life situation which would allow them to be ordained. Couldn't a teenager have a spiritual gift, even the gifts of pastoring and teaching, and using the gifts to teach and disciple his fellow teens? But if he doesn't have any experience ruling his house well because he hasn't lived long enough, he wouldn't be qualified. If a man with gifts of pastor and teacher fell into the sin of being a drunkard, he would not be qualified. There are lifestyle qualifications, not just gift qualifications. I would not say a woman could not have the pastor and teacher gifts, but gifts alone are not the only qualification for the bishop role. Maybe an older woman could use the gift of pastoring and teaching if she were to gather the younger women and teach them to be good wives, etc. The gift can be used in discipling people.

    Churches need to be careful not to replace Biblical qualifications for the ministry role of elder/'priest'/bishop with manmade qualifications. In some of the Reformed and Lutheran traditions, there is a tendency to emphasize earning certain degrees as a qualification. Degrees are more important now in Baptist, Pentecostal, Holiness, etc. traditions than they used to be, but the traditional emphasis was on gifts and calling in those denominations. The Bible lays out certain qualifications, and having an MDiv or being able to preach well should not be a replacement for Biblical qualifcations. Personally, I think there is a problem with adding extrabiblical qualifications, but certain it is wrong to ignore Biblical qualifications and appoint those who meet traditional, man-made standards.


    Something else to consider is that the idea that Paul's instructions might have kept adult sons living in their fathers houses and slaves from being overseers if they were not in the head of household position. From a practical point of view, even, if you were under the thumb of a head of household who opposed the faith who had power of life and death over you from a legal point of view, that could inhibit your ability to minister. Women also submitted to a head of household. In marriage, the wife is supposed to submit to the husband, children to parents, (slaves to masters in Biblical times when there was slavery.) If the wife is the bishop, now she has oversight over him. It runs against the order of the home.

    I am not dead set against life-long celibate local bishops necessarily, btw. But I don't see the strongest case in scripture for it. The description of the bishop is certainly very male. The word 'elder' is used to translated a rather male word. Few women have beards.

    This is the logical error of affirming the consequent. The example in a logic textbook was:

    If someone commits suicide he is dead. George Washington is dead. Therefore he committed suicide.

    But George Washington is dead because of a fever or because of the blood-letting given as the treatment.

    Your argument is parallel to this:
    A bishop is a teacher. Paul is a teacher. Therefore He is a teacher.

    Bishops are teachers but not all teachers are bishops. Just like people who commit suicide die, but not all people who die committed suicide.
     
  2. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    If it could be said that if there were colleges in the biblical era....Paul went to college. Back then there was a concern of who baptized and who taught. Those that were taught by Paul, were considered to be more reliable than others. But still as far as women, Christ's actions with women do not match what Paul said about women. But Paul was catching on there at the end. For the rest of Christianity....it has taken them 2000 years to catch on to morality, and they are still sorting out what Christ and Paul said.
     
  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    we see you're not intrested in seeking truth. the Holy Ghost/the Lord Jesus equates Elders a pastors. Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." and these was elders whom he was speaking with and had called from Ephesus, Acts 20:17 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church."

    this KJV only is only an excuse. and what a local congergation concering qualification that's their business, the bible is clear.
    so good day.
    PICJAG.
     
  4. A_Man

    A_Man Active Member

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    If you assume the trajectory was modern liberal philosophy that makes sense. If you believe that Paul's writings were inspired scripture, it does not.
     
  5. A_Man

    A_Man Active Member

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    I see you are quick to launch unfounded judgments, attacking a person's motives when they disagree with your ideas. Did my pointing out logical errors made you feel slighted somehow? Reading out of the KJV your idea did not line up with what the passage said. Paul was not claiming omniscience. I am interested in seeking truth, and I have spent a great deal of time studying out this very topic. I can find no scripture that leaves the qualifications up to the local congregation. Paul gave a similar lists of qualifications to two different ministers of the gospel, and they appointed the elders. He and Barnabas appointed elders in churches in Acts 14.

    For the seven, who I am more likely to associate with deacons, the apostles laid out the qualifications and the congregation chose men who met the qualifications, but it does not say the congregation set the qualifications.

    The Bible does not equate elders with pastors. Pastors in the Old Testament included other government officials. In the New, it includes the shepherds who heard the angels, and were probably not all later elders in the church.
     
  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    ERROR, just simple observation, andthe excuse, "you are quick to launch unfounded judgments, attacking a person's motives ",that don't play with me.
    so when I see people using excuses as these, and not the substance of the topic, I leave them alone. Good day.
    PICJAG
     
  7. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    And she just laughed, as she has many boyfriends. :D
     
  8. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Oh, one of THOSE kinds of marriages. :D
     
  9. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    If that is what you think? :mad::rolleyes:
     
  10. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but in spite of maturity in a sense on the one hand, on the other hand, we should realize surely how immature we still really are in the eyes of God. I wouldn't pat anyone on the back too hard here yet giving them a well done. God helped the natural Israelites of old and He has helped Christians today, but the parallels I see between them of old and us today are somewhat frightening and/or sad, are they not? Consider the blindness of the Israelites in the day when Jesus walked as man 2000 years ago and the blindness of Christians today. What is an Israelite? What is a Christian?

    Help us dear Lord!
     
  11. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Oh absolutely, we are in constant danger of falling over our own feet and muddying our faces on all manner of issues...even salvation. And yes, the parallels are many and concerning. The Israelites refusal to enter the promised land through lack of faith in God's promises to do for them what they could not do for themselves echoes in our churches today. We don't trust God to keep His word so we go to the world for help...even to the point of rallying around politicians believing in their promises to give the church power...:confused:
     
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  12. A_Man

    A_Man Active Member

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    Again, humility would help. If you were a bit more humble about it, you might consider that you might be wrong about something. You might think, "Maybe Paul was not saying that he was omniscient and did not have love. Maybe he was not saying that he allowed himself to be burned." If you had a bit more fear of God, you might also be careful of speaking ill of others and pretending to see into their hearts also.
     
  13. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Respect, a vital ingredient in love?

    The Greek verb and noun for respect
    Stronge’s Exhaustive Concordance #4380
    prosópolémpteó: to have respect of persons
    Original Word: προσωποληπτέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: prosópolémpteó
    Phonetic Spelling: (pros-o-pol-ape-teh'-o)
    Definition: to have respect of persons
    Usage: I favor specially, show partiality.

    Stronge’s Exhaustive Concordance #4382
    prosópolémpsia: respect of persons
    Original Word: προσωποληψία, ας, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: prosópolémpsia
    Phonetic Spelling: (pros-o-pol-ape-see'-ah)
    Definition: respect of persons
    Usage: partiality, favoritism.

    Thayer’s Greek Lexicon and Linddell & Scott’s Greek Lexicons agree.
    προσωποληπτέω (L T Tr WH προσωπολημπτέω (see Mu)), προσωπολήπτω; a Hellenistic verb (derived from the following word (cf. Winers 33, 101 (96))), to respect the person (i. e. the external condition of a man), to have respect of persons: James 2:9

    Cultural Conditioning is a social / religious process in that, what is perceived as a norm, shapes the way we think and perceive the world around us. Factors such as religion, social customs, and experiences such as families and regional circumstances, form a template or filter where information and experiences are mentally compared and measured. Not to say that there aren’t those with a mind of their own.

    From where we came…..

    Mosaic Law and Jewish culture….Females as property…Bride price…. Polygamous marriages, concubines, selling our daughters, slavery, and the whole kill all that breaths and don’t forget the babies…but keep the virgins for yourselves……Eye for an eye….life for a life….WOW!

    Christianity did make some improvements in morality but at what cost and how long did it take us to catch on….and why? Sometimes we wonder why the vast intellect and moral nature of God did not show up sooner? This here could be the reason; We focus on and have been taught the wrong scriptures. We learn slowly from the overall spirit of the scriptures and apparently are confused easily. So it is baby steps over a painfully long period of time… Yeap, women actually do have souls…..550’s Is salvation through Christ or the Church?.... 1517…Freedom is worth fighting for….1776…. Hey, we might not want to make slaves of human beings ....1800's. Ya we know mom is human too.....1919. Satan does not necessary reside in our crouch .....1960's They may not be slaves anymore, but by golly they sure are second rate citizens….ooops! Wrong again! 1960s’…. Spare the rod and spoil the child…Ya think! National Child Protection Act 1993….Why did it take so long to understand these things? I propose that part of the problem for some, is understanding what love is.

    Are our issues with love and affection tied to a negative view of sex? God's actual first commandment and most repeated commandment was to be Fruitful and multiply and His promises were the same. This is the only commandment that is a reoccurring commandment… God says this over and over, at nearly every significant event. Demonized…not in Eden…demonized by Christianity….sex is not respectful?….that is a problem…God created the whole process from attraction to delivery of new life. Can you have a family without sex?

    Marriage was given up as a concession in the NT. No focus on the family or romantic love in the NT. Eve was blamed for nearly everything….And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression….it is good for a man not to touch a woman…. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety….washing the feet of the saints….women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

    The expansion of these negative views toward sex and women ended up warping Christianity. When you make sex evil in a male dominate society you link women to Satan, men blaming them for their desires. So then in the Middle-Ages, the things they did to themselves and to women in the Witch-hunts and inquisitions are unspeakable visions of evil and horror. Or was it a warped sense of love? …I save you by beating you, or myself…. Flagellants. Hard for us to imagine that they tortured people out of love and concern for their souls, but that was what was going on in their heads. In motion…the emotional and psychological result of removing the element of respect from love and the negative view of women allowed them to go that extra mile!...to the weird! And over time produced atrocities much worse than the holocaust. Oh that is those evil Catholics!... right? How could this happen? It is a matter of respect.

    Respect gets a bad name in Christianity. Not a respecter of men, or even humanity. In the KJV the word respect occurs 12 times with little good to say about it. So they missed the point. The moral side of platonic love or romantic love or even sex drives, is about respect for others and ourselves. It is a lesson lost in the Bible. Now this concept is strictly apostolic…. did they get this from Christ? Did they misunderstand something? The Apostles and the Early Church Fathers should have thought it through a little more. Early Christianity missed an opportunity to steer us in the right direction.

    We get our noses so close to the letters written in ink that we miss the context….that is the spirit. If anyone thinks I cannot come up with about 100 contradictory scriptures and scriptures that do not make any sense, let me know.

    Psalm 137:9 NASB
    How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

    Psalm 137:9 KJV
    Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

    Luke 14:26
    If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  14. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 12:47-49
    Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers!

    But on the matter of respect….


    Acts 10:34
    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Acts 2:11
    For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Colossians 3:25
    But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    James 2:9
    But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

    Ephesians 6:9
    And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

    Colossians 3:22 NIV
    Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

    Note: The Greek word that means slavery was translated to servant in nearly all Bibles from the Geneva Bible on, due to the controversial nature of the word slave. In other words, they intentionally mistranslated the scriptures for political reasons. Later on they would come up with the “Slave Bible” which was specifically translated for slaves….I guess they read it to them.

    Now some say that the word respect is used in relation to emperors, kings, or government, but the Bible never uses respect in relation to these authorities. In stead the scriptures use words like, must submit or be in subjection. Romans 13:1-8

    This here is a common Christian statement…love without respect….
    The first thing we need to recognize is that respecting persons is SIN, just like murder, idolatry, rape, theft, adultery, covetousness, fornication, etc; it's not just something passively frowned upon in Scripture. The great commandment of the law and prophets, to love the Lord God and your neighbor, cannot be kept if Christians are respecting persons; meaning that you are not loving the Lord God and your neighbor if you are a respecter of persons.

    Sounds a lot like….

    James 2:8-10 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    That problem is, it not only does not work, it damages our perspective of love. That is why it is important to be mindful to use the big picture to assess all scriptures. We have all heard that the scriptures are the living Word of God. But what does that mean? People read the scriptures, they may memorize the scriptures. They may understand sentence by sentence. You could memorize the whole Bible, cover to cover, but that is still the most elementary level of biblical understanding, the milk, if you will.

    People say, “The Holy Spirit guides my understanding of the scriptures. Or the Holy Spirit reveals the meaning of the scriptures to me.” Lord, if that was only true, we would not have so many denominations. One should seek to understand the scriptures as a whole, the spirit of the Gospels and then go back and read the scriptures. No one reads the Bible praying that they do not understand.

    Putting things in motion, people would have to read the scriptures over and over again to the point they think they understand them, then step back and study the spirit of scriptures and start all over again. You are looking for the overall spirit and purpose.

    But that is not what happened or what happens now, for many. So Christianity moved forward…not the respecter of people. Whether you want to call it cultural conditioning or a psychological effect, once you remove respect from love, you have seriously damaged your ability to understand it, much less apply it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  15. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Once respect was directly targeted as not a character of God, and a sin for us, whatever lofty words that followed in the scriptures fell on hardened hearts. Hearts conditioned not to respect. It does not matter if it is romantic love or platonic love, what is left is a plastic rose, only a shell of what love means.

    Without respect, men can argue with me about ruling over their wives.
    Without respect, men can argue with me about the moral righteousness of slavery.
    Without respect, men can argue with me about human rights.
    Without respect, a man can expect his mother, sister, and his wife to know their place.
    Without respect the whole “love one another” is just a cliché. Hey I’ll pray for ya! Have a nice day! Sorry for your loss! Christianity is love! Love ya brother! Easy to say, no danger, no commitment, very shallow. How can love abide without respect?

    Do all things in love. 1st Corinthians 16:14 How many Christians can actually do this? Good thing we have charities!!! Toss’em a few bucks and make yourself feel good. The problem with this is, most charities are as crocked as the day is long. With as many charities as there are, if they were actually helping, by now, there would be very few that would need help. How much do you hear of charities helping….every now and again?

    The last thing you want to do, is do Good Deeds! They will say, You are trying to work your way into heaven! No, because that is love in motion. Put there is no fuel to drive it without respect, can you even have compassion without respect? Whatever you do, don’t give of yourself, your time and your money! Love without respect is like trying to build a brick building without mortar….It will end up misshapen. A twisted representation of what it was designed to be.


    They say charity begins at home. I say respect begins at home. Love one another includes respecting one another. The thing is, love and respect, would have changed Christianity a lot sooner….common sense…common dignity. With that, a man could say, My wife and I are a team and lifelong companions. All things in perspective….some of us get it! It changes your life! Because we genuinely care because we know people are important. Are we closet respecters? Did Christ think people were important?

    So that we do not just keep making mistakes of morality and common good for another 1000 years, we need to stand back and reassess what love is and what it looks like when it is applied. In case you are wondering, love is not a picture of slavery or women subjugated.


    One of the common causes of divorce is stated as taking each other for granted…do you think that lack of respect could be one of the causes of this? One of the most suppressed statistics, is the failure rate of marriage. Take a survey, just pay attention, a general group, how many people over 50 have been divorced…..
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  16. A_Man

    A_Man Active Member

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    The concept of 'respect of persons' as the KJV renders it has to do with showing partiality. For example, James warns against saying to a rich man who comes to a gathering/synagoguge 'Sit here in a good place' and saying to the poor man, 'Stand there' or 'Sit here under my footstool' as respect of persons. Treating 'rich' important people better was sin.

    He's not saying that we should not 'respect' people in the sense of treating people with honor and dignity.

    This is a divinely revealed standard of justice. The law came through Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jesus also taught a higher standard of morality than what was previously required or regulated, for example on marriage.

    Do you know of any ancient Jewish commentators on the law or any Christian theologian of any repute who ever said that women do not have souls? The only historical reference I can think of is a conversation in George Fox's journal in which he encountered a man who argued that women had no more souls than goats, and Fox quoted, 'My soul doth magnify the Lord...'

    A right to vote-- which men without land in the Anglosphere got in the 1800's- isn't the same thing as being a human being. I do not assume God considers Democracy to be more moral than monarchies for example.

    What does that mean.

    A very American-focused presentation of history, but the Bible did not promote this racail discrimination.

    Did that forbid spanking? I saw a study out of Hong Kong that pointed out those who abusively beat their kids was put in the same category with more moderate spanking in a lot of studies, and showed positive results for the group that were more moderate. Why should we assume God is pushing people toward a left-wing view of things?
     
  17. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Again, your thoughts and attitude illustrate why it took so long to figure out right and wrong. How men justified being cruel, unfair, and even evil. Without respect, your attitude show all. The meaning of the Greek word for respect was well defined....every scripture is referring to people in general....favoritism is not the issue....general respect for persons as stated in the scriptures and the removal of respect from the context of love.
     
  18. A_Man

    A_Man Active Member

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    Yes, favoritism 'respect of persons' in KJV English IS the issue. You seem to naively think that 'respect' in this KJV phrase means the same thing as the modern term. Did you look at the Strong's glosses you yourself posted?

    And from Thayer's
    Look at what the word meant when it came into the English language according to respect | Origin and meaning of respect by Online Etymology Dictionary:

    Modern Bible translations use words like 'partiality.'
     
  19. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    The word respect is never associated to favoritism in the Bible. I would ask you to provide the scriptures that indicates respect is described as favoritism, but unlike you, I know that the word favoritism does not occur in the Bible at all. But keep talking because you prove my point in attempting to justify why it took us so long to even learn the basics of fairness. Don't feel bad, you are in the majority, it took nearly 1800, to even have a clue!
     
  20. A_Man

    A_Man Active Member

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    This argument of yours is silly. When 'respect' came into the language, it had to do with favoritism, preferential treatment, etc. The word has changed in meaning over the centuries. It's one of the disadvantages of using an old translation like the KJV and one of the reasons for newer translations. But I used to use the KJV for quite a long time and memorize out of it. As a teenager, I picked up on the idea that 'respect of persons' does not mean showing basic human respect. This is very obvious if you read James 2, which contains the example of respect of persons-- telling the rich person to sit in a good place while offering the poor person to stand or sit under one's footstool.

    The NIV does actually use 'favoritism' in this verse:

    James 2:1 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.


    The KJV says 'respect of persons'.
     
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