I SEE TWO CHURCHES IN ACTS 15

[bdavidc]

You are just giving scriptures about the body of Christ which doesnt refute there being two churches.

~Ephesians 4:4–5
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism”

~Ephesians 2:14–16
“For he is our peace, who hath made both one… to make in himself of twain one new man… that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross”

~1 Corinthians 12:12–13
“For as the body is one, and hath many members… so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles”

~Colossians 3:11
“Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision… but Christ is all, and in all”

~Ephesians 1:22–23
“And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body”

~John 10:16
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold… and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd”

~Romans 12:4–5
“So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another”

~Galatians 3:28
“There is neither Jew nor Greek… for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”

 

[bdavidc]

Peter and the apostles lead the little floch believing remnant of Israel
Paul is apostle to the the body of Christ

What you teach is false teaching. Jesus Christ is supreme. Period. “And he is the head of the body, the church… that in all things he might have the preeminence” ~Colossians 1:18. There is only one Head. If you give headship to Peter over some church and Paul over another church, you have exalted yourselves above Scripture. You have become its editor.

The apostles did not lead a church. They led under the authority of Christ. Paul was clear “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” ~1 Corinthians 3:11. Peter agreed saying Christ is our “chief corner stone” ~1 Peter 2:6. Chief means above all. Cornerstone means all is built upon Him, not the apostles.

Scripture plainly says there are not two peoples. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles” ~1 Corinthians 12:13. One body means one church. Christ did not die for there to be two separate systems operating simultaneously. He died to reconcile all into one “to make in himself of twain one new man” ~Ephesians 2:15.

Paul had the Gentiles. Peter had the Jews. This is functional, not divisive. Peter himself attested to this spiritual unity when he said, “We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” ~Acts 15:11. Same grace. Same salvation. Same Lord.

Stop twisting Scripture to make it say what you want it to say. You are not rightly dividing the word of truth. Jesus told this kind of man he was in error: “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures” ~Matthew 22:29. Peter said these people would destroy themselves because they “wrest… the scriptures, unto their own destruction” ~2 Peter 3:16.

Jesus Christ is Head. His church is one. The Bible is clear on this matter. The issue is not a lack of verses. The issue is you are misapplying the ones you have. If you don't repent, you will answer to God for this on judgement day.

 

[bdavidc]

I only gave a few scriptures as examples, but all of the teachings of Jesus, the twelve, and Paul would require application if there were only one church.

You’re not asking honest questions. You’re stacking verses, ripping them from their context, and jamming them together to force a conclusion. That’s not dividing Scripture rightly. That’s twisting it.

Jesus told the apostles to go and teach everything He commanded to all nations ~Matthew 28:20, yes. But He also promised them the Spirit would lead them into all truth and bring all His words to remembrance. ~John 16:13, ~John 14:26. You’re pretending like revelation stopped being revealed after the Gospels and Acts 2 happened. When Scripture says God continued to reveal HIS FULLNESS of gospel after the cross and resurrection! That’s your first twist.

Jesus wasn’t giving a universal command for every believer in every season. He was speaking to disciples living in a unique situation where their possessions were linked to an imminent kingdom expectation and dependence on God. You take that command out of context and make it a test of salvation. Paul shut down that kind of abuse when he said, “If any would not work, neither should he eat.” ~2 Thessalonians 3:10 And when he told believers to provide for their household. ~1 Timothy 5:8 Scripture interprets Scripture. You take one command and absolutize it while ditching the rest.

Matthew 24:14 is the result of the gospel, NOT the gospel itself. The same Jesus who preached about the kingdom later commanded His disciples that “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations.” ~Luke 24: 47 Paul preached the same gospel when he wrote “Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.” ~1 Corinthians 15:1–4 You’re not coming to the defense of the kingdom, you’re dividing what Scripture unites.

Acts 2: 38 was said to Israel under covenant guilt for murdering their Messiah. ~Acts 2: 36 Peter later says forgiveness comes BY FAITH when he says “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” ~Acts 10:43 You take Acts 2:38 and try to make it a universal formula then ignore Peter’s own explanation two chapters later.

Matthew 6:14–15 isn’t contradicted by Colossians 2:13. Jesus is simply teaching His disciples about relational forgiveness with one another, not the legal foundation of justification. Paul teaches the foundation of forgiveness which is THE CROSS. Jesus Himself affirmed both when He prayed, “Father, forgive them” WHILE He bore our sin on the cross. ~Luke 23:34. You’re manufacturing contradictions where Scripture has none.

The Bible doesn’t resolve this conflict by creating two churches. It resolves it by allowing for context, audience, and redemptive timing. Paul even warned you guys when he said men will “wrest the scriptures unto their own destruction.” ~2 Peter 3:16

There is one church. One Head. One gospel. The problem isn’t that Scripture is unclear. The problem is that you will TWIST Scripture to say what it does not say to protect a system that Scripture NEVER teaches.

 

[Doug]

~Ephesians 4:4–5
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism”

~Ephesians 2:14–16
“For he is our peace, who hath made both one… to make in himself of twain one new man… that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross”

~1 Corinthians 12:12–13
“For as the body is one, and hath many members… so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles”

~Colossians 3:11
“Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision… but Christ is all, and in all”

~Ephesians 1:22–23
“And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body”

~John 10:16
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold… and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd”

~Romans 12:4–5
“So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another”

~Galatians 3:28
“There is neither Jew nor Greek… for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”

These verses pertain to the body of Christ and say nothing about there being two churches.
Here is one that does...............[Galatians 1:13 KJV] "For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:"...............Paul is saying there was a church before he was converted, which was the little flock Jerusalem church and Jesus saved him to reveal the church the body of Christ

 

[Doug]

~John 10:16
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold… and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd”

This verse isnt speaking about Gentiles. He is talking about bringing in the scattered persecuted Jews.................[John 11:52 KJV] "And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

 

[Doug]

What you teach is false teaching. Jesus Christ is supreme. Period. “And he is the head of the body, the church… that in all things he might have the preeminence” ~Colossians 1:18. There is only one Head. If you give headship to Peter over some church and Paul over another church, you have exalted yourselves above Scripture. You have become its editor.

I didnt say Peter was the head of the church I said for lack of a better word leader,,,,,,,Paul called him a pillar

 

[Doug]

Paul had the Gentiles. Peter had the Jews. This is functional, not divisive. Peter himself attested to this spiritual unity when he said, “We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they” ~Acts 15:11. Same grace. Same salvation. Same Lord.

Peter needed grce because he couldnt keep the law. Grace isnt confined to Paul and the body

 

[Doug]

You’re not asking honest questions. You’re stacking verses, ripping them from their context, and jamming them together to force a conclusion. That’s not dividing Scripture rightly. That’s twisting it.

You would have to tell me why these questions dont apply if there is one church. Tell me why all the teachings of Jesus, the twelve, and Paul dont all apply.
As an example, Didnt Jesus say to sell all and didnt his disciples do so?.................[Acts 2:44 KJV] "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"
[Acts 2:45 KJV] "And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need."............Isnt this one of his commands, why doesnt it pertain to you to obey?

Here are the questions, please tell me why they wouldnt have be accepted as your teaching.
As far as there being one church please answer these questions:

If there is one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve and Paul are all for us.

[Matthew 28:19 KJV] "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
[Matthew 28:20 KJV] "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."............the twelve were to teach the nations to observe ALL things he commanded them. The teachings of Jesus and the twelve are one and the same.

If there is only one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve apply to us. If this is so then some verses need to be addressed.

[Luke 12:33 KJV] "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth."..........This verse would apply to whoever says there is one church. If there is one church then this command from Christ applies because ALL teachings and commands do. HAVE YOU SOLD ALL, IF NOT, WHY DOESNT THIS APPLY TO YOU?

[Matthew 24:14 KJV] "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."...........are you preaching the gospel of the kingdom? Are you preaching the prophetic kingdom on earth is at hand? Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and commanded the twelve to preach it. The gospel was the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth in which believing Israel will reign with Christ for a thousand years was at hand. It demanded repentance and water baptism. This command applies if there is one true church. ARE YOU PRECHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM?

[Acts 2:38 KJV] "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."..........If there is one true church then this command applies. To have sins forgiven (remitted) water baptism is required, otherwise sins aren't washed away. DID YOU GET WATER BAPTIZED? IF SO DID YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IT WAS TO WASH AWY YOUR SINS?

[Matthew 6:14 KJV] "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:"
[Matthew 6:15 KJV] "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."........This teaching applies to the one true church. Ones sins can't be forgiven unless one forgives others. THIS COMMAND CAUSES A DILEMMA. The one true church requires us to apply all the teachings of Jesus and the twelve, but Paul is an apostle in the one church as well and his teachings and commands apply as well. Paul teaches we are forgiven ALL trespasses..........[Colossians 2:13 KJV] "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"...........How do you reconcile this?. The twelve would have to teach we need to forgive to be forgiven. Paul teaches we have all forgiveness. Who's teaching on this do we follow? The way to reconcile this is to acknowledge there are two churches with different commands and teachings.
WHOSE TEACHING ON FORGIVENESS SHOULD YOU FOLLOW? DO YOU FOLLOW JESUS AND BELIEVE YOU MUST FORGIVE TO BE FOREGIVEN OR PAUL WHO SAYS YOU HAVE ALL FOREGIVENESS?

I only gave a few scriptures as examples, but all of the teachings of Jesus, the twelve, and Paul would require application if there were only one church.

 

[Doug]

Scripture plainly says there are not two peoples. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles” ~1 Corinthians 12:13. One body means one church. Christ did not die for there to be two separate systems operating simultaneously. He died to reconcile all into one “to make in himself of twain one new man” ~Ephesians 2:15.

You are citing Paul because you cant cite Peter talking about there being one body that evolved from the one church. Peter never talks about one body even though he met with Paul.

 

[Doug]

Jesus Christ is Head. His church is one.

Totally agree
Paul revealed the church, the body of Christ which we in this dispensation are members, but that doesnt negate there being another church

 

[David in NJ]

I contend that Acts 15 revels that there was indeed two churches. There was the little flock Jerusalem church and the body of Christ that, for a time, existed together.

[Acts 11:19 KJV] "Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.".........No Gentiles were being preached to. We have to be careful in assuming which church is being referred to in Galatians 2 and Acts 15. There were churches in Antioch before Paul was saved. Paul persecuted the little flock Jerusalem church and they were scattered as far as Antioch. These churches were not body of Christ churches, they were the little flock Jerusalem churches.

[Acts 15:1 KJV] "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.".........If they came down from Judea, chances are these men who said the Gentile believers had to be circumcised were not from the body of Christ, but from the little flock church (I will explain). ........ [Acts 15:2 KJV] "When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.".........Paul and Barnabas disputed with the men from Judea, not with the body of Christ members. It was decided that Paul and Barnabas and some of "them" from Judea should go to Jerusalem about this matter. If Paul was going to the apostles and elders, these apostles and elders were from the little flock Jerusalem church.

Paul could not have been disputing about matters within his ministry, but was dealing with stipulations being imposed on Gentile believers by some of the believing circumcision little flock..........[Galatians 1:22 KJV] "And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:".........Paul says the churches of Judea were in Christ; the Jews in the little flock who believed on the name of Christ were in Christ, not just those in the body of Christ. ........Paul was unknown to the churches of Judea who only knew he persecuted them. That is why I said that those who came down from Judea weren't in the body of Christ, the churches of Judea didn't know Paul..........[Galatians 1:23 KJV] "But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.".......It is very doubtful that those from Judea were in the body of Christ.

[Acts 15:22 KJV] "Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:".........When James says they would send men from their OWN company that precludes them from being members of the body of Christ. The apostle and elders sent chosen men of their own company which is those of the little flock, NOT of the body of Christ along with Paul and Barnabas. This wasn't done by Paul alone.
[Acts 15:23 KJV] "And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:"
[Acts 15:24 KJV] "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:".......It is certain that those who said the Gentiles had to keep the law of Moses were from the little flock churches and not the body of Christ members. The apostles and elders of the little flock did not command anybody to go to the Gentiles and say they had to keep the law.
[Acts 15:25 KJV] "It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,"........They sent believing little flock members WITH Paul and Barnabas. There was the little flock and the body of Christ in view here.
No doubt there were two churches here and saying there was just one church is incorrect.

The little flock church are those who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve. They believed only on the name of Jesus, that he was Christ, the Son of God, and had life by his name. They were persecuted and scattered under Paul. They were still in existence during the conversion and some of the ministry of Paul. The elders and apostles from the little flock church met with Paul in the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. The dispute arose from the little flock saying that Gentiles would have to follow the law of Moses. The little flock were the ones who disputed with Paul. This question would have impacted Paul and the church who were preaching liberty in Christ and that Gentiles weren't under the law.

You and @GRACE ambassador are in serious NEED for 20/20 Vision from the Holy Spirit

There is only One Gospel = and it Begins in Genesis chapter 1

There is only One Body of Christ = it Begins in Genesis chapter 1

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I was asking you questions that arise from saying there is one church. Why didnt you answer? Please answer as they are pertinant to your saying there is one church. Here they are again.

If there is one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve and Paul are all for us.

[Matthew 28:19 KJV] "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
[Matthew 28:20 KJV] "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."............the twelve were to teach the nations to observe ALL things he commanded them. The teachings of Jesus and the twelve are one and the same.

If there is only one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve apply to us. If this is so then some verses need to be addressed.

[Luke 12:33 KJV] "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth."..........This verse would apply to whoever says there is one church. If there is one church then this command from Christ applies because ALL teachings and commands do. HAVE YOU SOLD ALL, IF NOT, WHY DOESNT THIS APPLY TO YOU?

[Matthew 24:14 KJV] "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."...........are you preaching the gospel of the kingdom? Are you preaching the prophetic kingdom on earth is at hand? Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and commanded the twelve to preach it. The gospel was the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth in which believing Israel will reign with Christ for a thousand years was at hand. It demanded repentance and water baptism. This command applies if there is one true church. ARE YOU PRECHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM?

[Acts 2:38 KJV] "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."..........If there is one true church then this command applies. To have sins forgiven (remitted) water baptism is required, otherwise sins aren't washed away. DID YOU GET WATER BAPTIZED? IF SO DID YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IT WAS TO WASH AWY YOUR SINS?

[Matthew 6:14 KJV] "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:"
[Matthew 6:15 KJV] "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."........This teaching applies to the one true church. Ones sins can't be forgiven unless one forgives others. THIS COMMAND CAUSES A DILEMMA. The one true church requires us to apply all the teachings of Jesus and the twelve, but Paul is an apostle in the one church as well and his teachings and commands apply as well. Paul teaches we are forgiven ALL trespasses..........[Colossians 2:13 KJV] "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"...........How do you reconcile this?. The twelve would have to teach we need to forgive to be forgiven. Paul teaches we have all forgiveness. Who's teaching on this do we follow? The way to reconcile this is to acknowledge there are two churches with different commands and teachings.
WHOSE TEACHING ON FORGIVENESS SHOULD YOU FOLLOW? DO YOU FOLLOW JESUS AND BELIEVE YOU MUST FORGIVE TO BE FOREGIVEN OR PAUL WHO SAYS YOU HAVE ALL FOREGIVENESS?

I only gave a few scriptures as examples, but all of the teachings of Jesus, the twelve, and Paul would require application if there were only one church.

This is why you should refraqin from trying to teach believers on this forum. Your inability to understand basic writing and the rules of understanding writing is dangerous!

If you cannot tell the difference between instructions given to the twelve or the seventy versus what was taught to teh crowds, you need to learn this first before you try to teach people your dark truths.

 

[Doug]

You’re not asking honest questions. You’re stacking verses, ripping them from their context, and jamming them together to force a conclusion.

I dont mean to be contentious, but we all use individual verses to teach the scriptures. You did the same here......... The apostles did not lead a church. They led under the authority of Christ. Paul was clear “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” ~1 Corinthians 3:11. Peter agreed saying Christ is our “chief corner stone” ~1 Peter 2:6. Chief means above all. Cornerstone means all is built upon Him, not the apostles..........did you stack them? did you take them out of context? That doesnt negate my teaching.

 

[Doug]

. You’re pretending like revelation stopped being revealed after the Gospels and Acts 2 happened.

I never said that revelations stopped, Paul received revelations.......[2 Corinthians 12:7 KJV] "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

 

[Doug]

Jesus wasn’t giving a universal command for every believer in every season. He was speaking to disciples living in a unique situation where their possessions were linked to an imminent kingdom expectation and dependence on God.

I agree, because of right division, it doesn't apply to us, but you are saying we are, by believing there is one church, subject to this teaching. Paul didnt teach this to the body of Christ. This was commanded to the little flock church.

 

[Doug]

Matthew 24:14 is the result of the gospel, NOT the gospel itself. The same Jesus who preached about the kingdom later commanded His disciples that “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations.” ~Luke 24: 47 Paul preached the same gospel when he wrote “Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.” ~1 Corinthians 15:1–4 You’re not coming to the defense of the kingdom, you’re dividing what Scripture unites.

That remission of sins preached in HIS NAME neglects the cross. Israel before Paul only had to believe in Jesus's name, to believe he was their messiah, the Son of God.........[John 20:31 KJV] "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."..........it's not the same gospel

 

[Doug]

Acts 2: 38 was said to Israel under covenant guilt for murdering their Messiah. ~Acts 2: 36 Peter later says forgiveness comes BY FAITH when he says “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” ~Acts 10:43 You take Acts 2:38 and try to make it a universal formula then ignore Peter’s own explanation two chapters later.

I dont know what you mean.
Yes Peter was convicting them about crucifying Christ, but he is only preaching to believe ON HIS NAME for salvation, not he cross

 

[soberxp]

Perhaps it should be called the earliest sects, different factions.

 

[Doug]

Matthew 6:14–15 isn’t contradicted by Colossians 2:13. Jesus is simply teaching His disciples about relational forgiveness with one another,

Where can you say this is only about relationships between forgiveness for one another and not about God forgiving sins?
Jesus is saying Israel wouldnt have HIS forgiveness if they didnt forgive

 

[Doug]

You and @GRACE ambassador are in serious NEED for 20/20 Vision from the Holy Spirit

Just us No one else?