Idolators Mock the Godhead

[robert derrick]

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ.

Idolators that reject the Godhead of Jesus Christ, and declare He is not God, but only another created creature among angels and men, like to play carnal mind games with Scripture.

They mockingly say that the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost can't be true; otherwise, 1 + 1+ 1 would equal 1. And so the 'Trinity' must be the polytheism of one plus another one plus another one that makes three gods.

But the mystery of the Godhead in Scripture is simple and true:

It's, One and One and One is Three that are One: Each One is God and all Three are One Godhead.

It's not God plus the Father plus the Son, but God and the Father and the Son.

The Oneness of the Godhead in Scripture is that of perfect unity in love and truth, not of carnal numbers games.

Scripture is the water of Life to them that love Him, but is a just a bunch of numbered verses to play games with to them that reject Him as God.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

 

[Episkopos]

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ.

Idolators that reject the Godhead of Jesus Christ, and declare He is not God, but only another created creature among angels and men, like to play carnal mind games with Scripture.

They mockingly say that the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost can't be true; otherwise, 1 + 1+ 1 would equal 1. And so the 'Trinity' must be the polytheism of one plus another one plus another one that makes three gods.

But the mystery of the Godhead in Scripture is simple and true:

It's, One and One and One is Three that are One: Each One is God and all Three are One Godhead.

It's not God plus the Father plus the Son, but God and the Father and the Son.

The Oneness of the Godhead in Scripture is that of perfect unity in love and truth, not of carnal numbers games.

Scripture is the water of Life to them that love Him, but is a just a bunch of numbered verses to play games with to them that reject Him as God.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Who is in fact playing a numbers game?

The New Testament is about the coming of Christ and the revelation of Christ.

How many testaments do we need to reveal the duality of God?

1+1= 2

What we see is an avoidance of this simple formula that explains the GodHead. People are told to either see only one person in the GodHead...or three. What ever happened to 2? The word Elohim expresses a DUALITY in the divinity of God.

The Old Testament reveals the Father working through His Spirit. The New Testament reveals the work of His Son Jesus Christ in union with the Father. Same Spirit. What about the Spirit of Christ revealed in the New Testament?

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Is the Spirit of Christ another person...perhaps making this a Quadrinity? 1+1+1+1? So then we have the Father...the Spirit of the Father...The Son, and the Spirit of the Son. If we were to keep up the same logic throughout (making a person's spirit to be a separate person) we get 4 persons not three.

So we have a gap in understanding that shows how the unity of the Spirit works. Is it any wonder why there is no agreement on this?

Why can't we accept that the Spirit of Christ is the same as the Spirit of God?...the Father and Son sharing One Spirit (although separate Persons). Doesn't that position reveal the Deity of Christ? If the Spirit of Christ is separate from the Spirit of the Father...then that makes Jesus to be only human (like us)...not divine. But humans don't share their spirits with each other...only God does that.

So then the initial deviation is in trying to make the Holy Spirit to be different than the Spirit of God (or as it says in the OT "God's Holy Spirit"). God is holy. God is Spirit. There is no need to make a new person apart from the Father and the Son. And here I am supporting Jesus Christ as God...a lesser part of a greater whole. I think people underestimate just how great the Father is when they react against the ranking of God within Himself. Jesus Christ is very great. (on the scale of the world) But the Father is greater still. (on the scale of the vast universe) Our human minds are unable to ponder the infinite.

 

[Episkopos]

What I see in all these debates is a fundamental lack of understanding of God's ways and the nature of the kingdom of God.

EVERYTHING in God's order has a ranking. Without ranking everything would be the same. God would be no greater than us..or else only slightly so. The idea of co-equality comes from seeing all humans the same. But there are great and least in the kingdom. Even among humans. There will be vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour...and many rankings in between.

Without ranking there could be no worship, holiness, or order.

In our search for equality we have imposed our ideas on the nature of God. How many can only see Jesus being God if He is "co-equal" with His Father? The Father is OBVIOUSLY greater than the Son...so then if we reject the co-equal argument...do we abandon the divinity of Christ?

Or are our human minds missing something fundamental? Is there is an obvious third option that basically covers ALL the statements in the Bible perfectly?

The NT reveals that Jesus has been there all along...although covered by the name of His Father. Why doesn’t Jesus say that He came in the name of both His Father AND the name of the Holy Spirit? How many of us understand what it means that Jesus came in His Father's name?

"I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive." John 5:43

What is the name of the Father?

The name YHVH covers BOTH the Father AND the Son. The Father is the Most High..the Lord of Hosts...the God of ALL flesh. Until the coming of Christ to us He was the Lord...the God of Israel.

All of this can be proven from the biblical narrative...if one maintains the same logic throughout. (And avoid all the deviations we see that lead people astray in their understanding)

 

[Robert Gwin]

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ.

Idolators that reject the Godhead of Jesus Christ, and declare He is not God, but only another created creature among angels and men, like to play carnal mind games with Scripture.

They mockingly say that the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost can't be true; otherwise, 1 + 1+ 1 would equal 1. And so the 'Trinity' must be the polytheism of one plus another one plus another one that makes three gods.

But the mystery of the Godhead in Scripture is simple and true:

It's, One and One and One is Three that are One: Each One is God and all Three are One Godhead.

It's not God plus the Father plus the Son, but God and the Father and the Son.

The Oneness of the Godhead in Scripture is that of perfect unity in love and truth, not of carnal numbers games.

Scripture is the water of Life to them that love Him, but is a just a bunch of numbered verses to play games with to them that reject Him as God.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Most people mock God sir, when they promote other gods above Him don't you think? Although it is not what Jehovah or His people want, in the near future those mockers will be removed, that is why the ministry is so crucial today 2 Pet 3:9

 

[robert derrick]

Who is in fact playing a numbers game?

The New Testament is about the coming of Christ and the revelation of Christ.

How many testaments do we need to reveal the duality of God?

1+1= 2

What we see is an avoidance of this simple formula that explains the GodHead. People are told to either see only one person in the GodHead...or three. What ever happened to 2? The word Elohim expresses a DUALITY in the divinity of God.

The Old Testament reveals the Father working through His Spirit. The New Testament reveals the work of His Son Jesus Christ in union with the Father. Same Spirit. What about the Spirit of Christ revealed in the New Testament?

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Is the Spirit of Christ another person...perhaps making this a Quadrinity? 1+1+1+1? So then we have the Father...the Spirit of the Father...The Son, and the Spirit of the Son. If we were to keep up the same logic throughout (making a person's spirit to be a separate person) we get 4 persons not three.

So we have a gap in understanding that shows how the unity of the Spirit works. Is it any wonder why there is no agreement on this?

Why can't we accept that the Spirit of Christ is the same as the Spirit of God?...the Father and Son sharing One Spirit (although separate Persons). Doesn't that position reveal the Deity of Christ? If the Spirit of Christ is separate from the Spirit of the Father...then that makes Jesus to be only human (like us)...not divine. But humans don't share their spirits with each other...only God does that.

So then the initial deviation is in trying to make the Holy Spirit to be different than the Spirit of God (or as it says in the OT "God's Holy Spirit"). God is holy. God is Spirit. There is no need to make a new person apart from the Father and the Son. And here I am supporting Jesus Christ as God...a lesser part of a greater whole. I think people underestimate just how great the Father is when they react against the ranking of God within Himself. Jesus Christ is very great. (on the scale of the world) But the Father is greater still. (on the scale of the vast universe) Our human minds are unable to ponder the infinite.

You apparently miss the point of how idolators mock the Godhead with a numbers game, but nonetheless, your teaching on the Father and the Son being with God the Holy Spirit is good.

While men cannot have the same spirit of man, which are each created individually by Christ, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit have the same eternal Spirit of God.

We can be one in unity as they are, but not the same spirit as they are:

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.

 

[robert derrick]

What I see in all these debates is a fundamental lack of understand of God's ways and the nature of the kingdom of God.

EVERYTHING in God's order has a ranking. Without ranking everything would be the same. God would be no greater than us..or else only slightly so. The idea of co-equality comes from seeing all humans the same. But there are great and least in the kingdom. Even among humans. There will be vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour...and many rankings in between.

Without ranking there could be no worship, holiness, or order.

In our search for equality we have imposed our ideas on the nature of God. How many can only see Jesus being God if He is "co-equal" with His Father? The Father is OBVIOUSLY greater than the Son...so then if we reject the co-equal argument...do we abandon the divinity of Christ?

Or are our human minds missing something fundamental? Is there is an obvious third option that basically covers ALL the statements in the Bible perfectly?

The NT reveals that Jesus has been there all along...although covered by the name of His Father. Why doesn’t Jesus say that He came in the name of both His Father AND the name of the Holy Spirit? How many of us understand what it means that Jesus came in His Father's name?

"I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive." John 5:43

What is the name of the Father?

The name YHVH covers BOTH the Father AND the Son. The Father is the Most High..the Lord of Hosts...the God of ALL flesh. Until the coming of Christ to us He was the Lord...the God of Israel.

All of this can be proven from the biblical narrative...if one maintains the same logic throughout. (And avoid all the deviations we see that lead people astray in their understanding)

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are each God, equally God.

Speaking of position of authority is different from that of equality.

The Father was greater in authority than the Son, when He became a man and submitted Himself to the Father's commandments, that He might become the example of submission to God as a man.

Now, the Son sits in the position of authority in the throne of God: the Son on the right hand, and the Father on the left hand.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.

The Son being equal with the Father submitted Himself to the Father, and the Father being equal with the Son exalted the Son above Himself.

The Caesars used to name their sons heirs of the throne, and give them names of authority one step below their own, after they came of aga and proved themselves worthy. Only at the death of the Emperor did the son become Emperor himself.

Not so with the kingdom of God, where The Father, while alive, highly exalted His own Son to be KING of KINGS above Himself, and so sits on the right hand of their throne together.

Christians of the Roman Empire knew this to be the case, distinctly different from the manner of men, who held to their own power for as long as they could on earth.

 

[bbyrd009]

But the mystery of the Godhead in Scripture is simple and true

well, no offense meant here ok but look what you are doing; putting a definition that seems right to you for a concept that the Bible deems “mystery”
why?

 

[ChristisGod]

Who is in fact playing a numbers game?

The New Testament is about the coming of Christ and the revelation of Christ.

How many testaments do we need to reveal the duality of God?

1+1= 2

What we see is an avoidance of this simple formula that explains the GodHead. People are told to either see only one person in the GodHead...or three. What ever happened to 2? The word Elohim expresses a DUALITY in the divinity of God.

The Old Testament reveals the Father working through His Spirit. The New Testament reveals the work of His Son Jesus Christ in union with the Father. Same Spirit. What about the Spirit of Christ revealed in the New Testament?

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Is the Spirit of Christ another person...perhaps making this a Quadrinity? 1+1+1+1? So then we have the Father...the Spirit of the Father...The Son, and the Spirit of the Son. If we were to keep up the same logic throughout (making a person's spirit to be a separate person) we get 4 persons not three.

So we have a gap in understanding that shows how the unity of the Spirit works. Is it any wonder why there is no agreement on this?

Why can't we accept that the Spirit of Christ is the same as the Spirit of God?...the Father and Son sharing One Spirit (although separate Persons). Doesn't that position reveal the Deity of Christ? If the Spirit of Christ is separate from the Spirit of the Father...then that makes Jesus to be only human (like us)...not divine. But humans don't share their spirits with each other...only God does that.

So then the initial deviation is in trying to make the Holy Spirit to be different than the Spirit of God (or as it says in the OT "God's Holy Spirit"). God is holy. God is Spirit. There is no need to make a new person apart from the Father and the Son. And here I am supporting Jesus Christ as God...a lesser part of a greater whole. I think people underestimate just how great the Father is when they react against the ranking of God within Himself. Jesus Christ is very great. (on the scale of the world) But the Father is greater still. (on the scale of the vast universe) Our human minds are unable to ponder the infinite.

Why not stick with scripture instead of human reasoning, math or formulas ?


Holy Spirit distinct from the Father and Son


John 14:16-17
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14:23
My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name(singular not plural names) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons

hope this helps !!!

 

[robert derrick]

Most people mock God sir, when they promote other gods above Him don't you think? Although it is not what Jehovah or His people want, in the near future those mockers will be removed, that is why the ministry is so crucial today 2 Pet 3:9

Certainly. Such as any god that was supposed to be with Him in the beginning, that they call a son and christ.

 

[robert derrick]

Why not stick with scripture instead of human reasoning, math or formulas ?


Holy Spirit distinct from the Father and Son


John 14:16-17
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14:23
My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26-27
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:5-8
"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?' 6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

John 16:13-15
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name(singular not plural names) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons

hope this helps !!!

True. Each one is distinctly God, and neither are separate from God.

This obvious teaching of Scriptural unity of the Godhead really is not difficult.

I now believe those who reject Jesus as God simply do so, because they don't want Him for the Lord and God, even as the Jews not receiving Him.

Idolatry and special pagan cultism is much more exciting and fun with the intellect. Intellectual stimulation of something 'different' from the normal sense of things, is much more appealing than just believing and doing the truth as written.

Just believing and doing what is written doesn't require a whole lot of high-thinking scholarship with original languages and fanciful cases of scenario:

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Certainly. Such as any god that was supposed to be with Him in the beginning, that they call a son and christ.

The Word which I think we agree refers to Jesus, was in fact with Him in the beginning as Jn 1:1 states, what is that beginning? I believe it means the beginning of Creation, perhaps you can enlighten me on what you think it means sir.

 

[ChristisGod]

The Word which I think we agree refers to Jesus, was in fact with Him in the beginning as Jn 1:1 states, what is that beginning? I believe it means the beginning of Creation, perhaps you can enlighten me on what you think it means sir.

Before Creation like Genesis 1:1 and John 17:5 where we read the Son was together with the Father prior to Creation sharing the same glory together with the Father.

 

[robert derrick]

The Word which I think we agree refers to Jesus, was in fact with Him in the beginning as Jn 1:1 states, what is that beginning? I believe it means the beginning of Creation, perhaps you can enlighten me on what you think it means sir.

Exactly what Scripture says: In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There was no god ever with God, not in the beginning, nor now. All such gods who make nothing shall perish:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word is Christ our Maker.

Those who follow a word and son and god as hero of heroes are pagan cult makers, not Christian worshipper of the true God and eternal life, Jesus Christ.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Before Creation like Genesis 1:1 and John 17:5 where we read the Son was together with the Father prior to Creation sharing the same glory together with the Father.

Jn 1:1 leads off with In the beginning. The beginning is the start of creation Chris. The verse points out that Jesus was with God at the start. Jesus was created however as the Bible points out at Rev 3:14, and since he was the only creation done exclusively by Jehovah, Jesus is referred to as the only-begotten from among all of God's sons. Jesus being the master craftsman Pro 8:30 had a hand in everything else that was created, brought forth through him, and actually for him as well. Col 1:16 Likely that is why Jesus is so very dedicated in bringing everything back in harmony with the original purpose and then hands it back to his God 1 Cor 15:24

 

[Robert Gwin]

Exactly what Scripture says: In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There was no god ever with God, not in the beginning, nor now. All such gods who make nothing shall perish:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word is Christ our Maker.

Those who follow a word and son and god as hero of heroes are pagan cult makers, not Christian worshipper of the true God and eternal life, Jesus Christ.

Exactly Rob! That is why the Bible does not say the Word was God, because God has no God Ex 20:3,4
With the exception of himself Rob, everything was made through him and for him sir Col 1:16

 

[robert derrick]

Exactly Rob! That is why the Bible does not say the Word was God, because God has no God Ex 20:3,4
With the exception of himself Rob, everything was made through him and for him sir Col 1:16

Lying against Scripture and to oneself is getting more and more blatantly silly. It's not just mocking the Godhead, but it also mockery of any common intelligence.

You say the word was a god with God, and Scripture declares there is no god with God.

I appreciate your responding elsewhere to certain proofs against jehovah idolatry; however, not only did you evade 4 of the points completely, but now you are degrading yourself into childish pranks with Scripture and words.

You really do need to at least try and recognize how blindly you are clinging to your false idolatry.

Nonetheless, you can keep it coming, because you always find a way to add more foolishness for the records.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

I don't mock the biblical Godhead. What i refuse to do is acknowledge the pagan triune gods of counterfeit Christianity as God. Trinitarians are basically like the Ephesians who ran around shouting "great is Diana of the Ephesians!" like nutcases when Paul was teaching people about the true Godhead.

Trinitarians are the idolaters because they subscribe to a false idea of God that came from Babylon, as well as rejecting the God and Jesus that the Bible reveals. There is a mountain of evidence that shows no apostle ever taught such a doctrine(in John's case, he even spent his epistles, gospel account, and Revelation teaching against it), and trinitarians still insist on finding inventive ways to make the Bible appear to support this obviously false doctrine.

The faithful adherence to the trinity doctrine only serves to prove what John wrote in Rev. 17 true about how the Babylonian churches of this world have made the world drunk by passing their false doctrines off as "Christian". If the trinity was biblical, then there would be 3 Beings mentioned in John 1:1 as God since it chronological takes place before the angels and the physical universe were created. And yet it doesn't. Why? Because the Holy Spirit is not a God. As the angel Gabriel clearly mentions in Luk. 1:35, it is the power that allows God to exercise His will. That's why Jesus consistently refers to it as water in John's gospel account.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Lying against Scripture and to oneself is getting more and more blatantly silly. It's not just mocking the Godhead, but it also mockery of any common intelligence.

You say the word was a god with God, and Scripture declares there is no god with God.

I appreciate your responding elsewhere to certain proofs against jehovah idolatry; however, not only did you evade 4 of the points completely, but now you are degrading yourself into childish pranks with Scripture and words.

You really do need to at least try and recognize how blindly you are clinging to your false idolatry.

Nonetheless, you can keep it coming, because you always find a way to add more foolishness for the records.

Jn 1:1 says it Rob

 

[RedFan]

Trinitarians are the idolaters because they subscribe to a false idea of God that came from Babylon . . .

From Bablyon? This is news to me. (I would have bet money on Alexandria or Carthage.) Tell me more about the original source of Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[robert derrick]

Jn 1:1 says it Rob

Deut 32:39 says not.