If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

[Wrangler]

The notion that an entity would cause horrific suffering as a way to get people to worship them is utterly wicked and repugnant.

I didn't say anything remotely like God causes suffering. Your wicked and repugnant mind may never open up to God. Point is suffering does bring people closer to God. People do not tend to pray as often or as earnestly when things are going well. Who is there for those who suffer? Not Atheists?


Romans 5:3-5 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

James 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, and that's what I'm iterating. The notion of an all-powerful all-loving god is patently absurd. If there's a god then it is either powerless to act or indifferent to human suffering. Doesn't matter which, which ever it is its not a god worth worshipping.

i cant help but be minded of a fourteen year old telling their parents how much they hate them, bc they have ruined their life? lol?

 

[Wrangler]

If there's a god then it is either powerless to act or indifferent to human suffering.

Typical Atheist moral reasoning, supposing not only are they morally superior to their own Creator but also supposing he is a vending machine God required do the bidding of his creation. Let me appeal to your power of reasoning. Why should God act to stop human suffering when they have not followed his commands?

Regarding the supposition that he is indifferent; why should God care that humans suffer when that is the consequence of their choices (not followed his laws)? (I look forward to more arrogant moralizing.) As folks like you inexorably head toward the cliff of oblivion, your hard heart is revealed for the pure evil it is, damning God for the consequences of your own choices.

You'd rather die than repent. You'd rather die than submit to his lordship. Amen. So be it. God will respect your choice - for all time. The famous Atheist philsopher Ayn Ran stated there is only one right - the right to life. That life has an expiration date, by default. The Australian minister, Steve Cioccolanti, said the entire Bible can be summed up in 2 words. Choose Life.

God is giving you a choice. Choose life - through his son Jesus - or perish. Choose wisely.

 

[bbyrd009]

This has the air of the Fraternity about it . . .

yes?

 

[bbyrd009]

simply to highlight that the belief system itself is an utter nonsense, doesn't stand up, doesn't hold water and is rally just an oppressive psych

ha look pls contemplate how the virgin will be with child would have been understood in that mileiu, and what an empty room for a holy of holies meant ok, they were also considered “atheists” by the Romans.

and imo you must consider that Jesus roundly clowned the religious around Him, while giving the highest praise to the “atheist” (samaritan) and the pagan (roman centurion)

best wishes to you

 

[Lapidem]

well as we have already discussed, and you are aware of, Yah admits to creating evil

Yep and I've read the Bible verses confirming this. Strange how some Christians deny it and lay the blame elsewhere.

well, so you say, but you seem to make no allowances for self-inflicted suffering at all, as in the case of irresponsibility viz ones children; is it God's responsibility to twinkle His nose and solve all problems? What are you doing to curtail all this human suffering that you seem so upset about?

I'll reiterate what I told Wrangler. I, as a person am not claiming to be all-powerful and all-loving nor am I trying to make everyone else worship me and follow my dictats. The so-called Christian concept of god however IS wanting everyone to worship and adore him, wants everyone to accept him as ruler and is claimed to be both all-powerful and all-loving. There's the key difference. As stated numerous times now we MUST ABSOLUTELY expect and demand that any potential ruler displays the kind of behaviours that he/she wants from their subjects and the kind of traits that we humans would deem worthy of worship. Herein lies a key problem with Christianity for the god of this psychological system of control is recounted in the Bible to be a mass murderer of men, women, children and babies and even as yet unborn babies. He has according to the Bible killed countless people, numerous innocents, numerous animals, has engaged in ethnic cleansing and of course genocide. Yet this would-be ruler requires of his subjects that they should not kill.

This of course does not wash. We may as well worship Hitler by those standards.

Add to this that he turns a blind eye to the worldwide crime of the sexual abuse of little children, and to the sex slave trade and to the starvation of millions and the terminal affliction of children to diseases like Leukaemia and so on and all in all he doesn't appear to be either all-powerful or all-loving.

There is no justification for worshipping such an entity imho. Those that do are compartmentalising all these issues and ignoring them because of their religious indoctrination.

Personally i am not suffering at all, and my kids arent either, so wadr i am not sure where this is coming from tbh.

This is a ludicrous statement. It's basically an "I'm all right Jack" approach and nothing else matters. The reality is that society is a collective and we are all affected by crimes and atrocities even if they don't directly happen to us. It's also a very unchristian attitude.
You surely are not denying the widespread sexual abuse of children or the sex slave trade and the like?

I think we live in a pretty much perfect place, and pretty much everyone seems to get what they give away, imaginary and unconfirmed molested children aside. And for those that are real then cant their parents sue?

What good does suing someone achieve? The child that has been sexually abused will be scarred for life. It will affect their whole life and approach to people and relationships going forward. There's nothing remotely perfect about where we are. We are born into a slave system that is already mastered and controlled by wicked humans. We are shackled the moment we emerge from the womb.

but really i think you are just inventing maladjusted scenarios as reasons to disavow God, tbh.

I'm inventing nothing and to deny that the crimes and atrocities I have raised exist is ridiculous. I didn't expect this from you TBH.

I mean, let's go find some victims to blame God about much? If that putz Jerry Seville molested any kids, this is certainly the right climate to sue for damages in, eh?

Again this idea of suing someone is puerile.

but really all most of this is is looking for the bad, rather than celebrating the good, imo. We have made huge strides in the last thousand years, and i srsly doubt that you would prefer to live in 1023 over 2023 if you had the option?

It's neither looking for the good or bad. It's simply highlighting that there is no all-loving all-powerful god. We a re literally drowning in evidence every day of this. What that means then is that if there do exist one or more highly advanced super beings, then we have been badly mislead about them by the church and religions and we must start to search in new directions to find the truth and stop living in silly denial.

 

[Lapidem]

Longevity: The Judeo-Christian belief system has been around for 4,000 years, since the time of Abraham.

Members: More than any other belief system.

Your critic does not stand up.

Your view of what "stands up" means is childish and fallacious. People believed for centuries that the Earth sat at the centre of the universe. That didn't make it right. Millions of people believed it. That didn't make it right. Only facts count here. Hard evidence. Objective reality. You have no interest in those things and understandably so because your belief system is founded on subjectivity and emotion.

 

[Lapidem]

I didn't say anything remotely like God causes suffering.

Yep you did. You said "Do you suppose a non-Christian would turn to the Christian God if not for suffering. "

The implication being that suffering, which god causes and /or allows to happen is used to turn people toward him.

Your wicked and repugnant mind may never open up to God.

Ah we've reached the point of insults. How very "Christian" !

My mind will never open up to your ridiculous and utterly fallacious concept of god. I was born with innate capacity to think and reason and exercise critical thinking. I choose to use those attributes and they expose for me the lies of your belief system and its corruption.

My mind remains totally open to the possibility of one or more advanced beings who may have had a hand in the creation/design of human DNA and other forms of life here on Earth.

My mind remains open to the possibility that the true source of life is a kind of universal life energy that pervades everything around us and that our human form perish because we do not receive or take in enough of that life energy on a daily basis. That we should have access to that energy but it has been reemoved from us by corrupt and wicked people who keep it for themselves.

Point is suffering does bring people closer to God. People do not tend to pray as often or as earnestly when things are going well. Who is there for those who suffer? Not Atheists?

Gosh that's such an ignorant statement. Atheists and humanists the world over are active in looking after others. Again your telling Christian piousness rears its ugly head.

The vast majority of so-called Christians are sitting snug and warm in their homes, trotting off to church every Sunday chanting moronic phrases and signing words they don't really believe in. They abhor drug users and alcoholics and wouldn't go near them. They appase their guilty consciences once every year at Christmas when the pathetic adverts for the Sally Army are played to the music of "In the bleak mid-winter" and they take that opportunity to rifle through their wardrobes and pluck out all the dross jumpers and scarves and gloves they no longer want and give them to the Sally Army thinking they are doing a good deed. They are totally clueless of the situation, clueless of what these people need, clueless of what really happens to the cast off clothes they donate. Just pathetically clueless and ignorant.

But they wouldn't touch these people. Wouldn't go near them. Wouldn't tolerate them sitting on the ground begging in their neighbourhoods.

Where would Jesus be? Right there among them.

Your vitriol constantly exposes you to be one of the "billions" that bbyrd009 talks about. Those that are just playing along, haven't really heard the message, full of piousness and pride, needing to appear authoritative, superior when the reality is that you have fallen very far from grace.

I won't grace you with the list of activities I undertake for the less fortunate in my home city. I won't cast pearls before swine.

Your attitudes are archaic and blinkered like so many other so-called "Christians". You're on the wide path.

 

[Lapidem]

i cant help but be minded of a fourteen year old telling their parents how much they hate them, bc they have ruined their life? lol?

Again your similies/metaphors make no sense. Parents aren't claiming to have created the universe, not claiming to be all-powerful, not claiming to be all-loving. If they were doing so then the teenagers would have valid cause to vent their angst.

 

[Lapidem]

Typical Atheist moral reasoning, supposing not only are they morally superior to their own Creator but also supposing he is a vending machine God required do the bidding of his creation. Let me appeal to your power of reasoning. Why should God act to stop human suffering when they have not followed his commands?

Why should anyone follow his commands? Why should anyone follow Hitler's commands? Or Putins?
We are free men and women. We only allow ourselves to be ruled by others voluntarily or by force. If it's going to be voluntarily then as I have explained numerous times now we MUST demand that any ruler displays the type of behaviours that the ruler expects of us and we must demand that the behaviours are the kind we want to see in this world.

If we are being forced to follow commandments then there is no free will and it's just tyrannical rule. If you're happy to be ruled by a tyrant then that's your choice and good luck to you. History shows us that living under tyranny is not a good lifestyle.

It's entirely feasible for a god to not care about humans and to let them suffer and die particularly if that god is weak/impotent or just uncaring or malevolent.

Regarding the supposition that he is indifferent; why should God care that humans suffer when that is the consequence of their choices (not followed his laws)?

This is utter nonsense and you know it. Can you tell me please what laws or commandments a 5yr old girl has failed to follow when she's being forcibly held down and sexually abused by the likes of Jimmy Savile? What choices did that innocent child make that justify this traumatic experience? Please tell us, we're all ears and need a bit of entertainment !

(I look forward to more arrogant moralizing.) As folks like you inexorably head toward the cliff of oblivion, your hard heart is revealed for the pure evil it is, damning God for the consequences of your own choices.

Classic fundy rhetoric. I reject totally your unfounded and ridiculous threats and scaremongering. Get thee behind me.

You'd rather die than repent. You'd rather die than submit to his lordship. Amen. So be it. God will respect your choice - for all time.

Ditto. You sound more and more desperate and ridiculous. Readers will see the vitriol being expressed here and know the truth. You are on the wide path. You have no love in you.

The famous Atheist philsopher Ayn Ran stated there is only one right - the right to life. That life has an expiration date, by default.

No it doesn't. More lies. Your life has been there since the universe began. It is indestructible. Your human form is just a transient vessel in which your life has been trapped and from which it will later be freed. No-one needs to worship any imaginary entity for this to remain true. No-one needs to cow-tow to the false church and pour their money into its coffers for this immortality. It's the greatest lie the devil ever told. Where the hell do you think you actually came from? Do you think the sperm and egg produced life? Or were they just the perfect vessels needed for life that was already there, to enter within?

God is giving you a choice. Choose life - through his son Jesus - or perish. Choose wisely.

Get thee behind me. You are misguided and have swallowed lies hook line and sinker.

 

[Wrangler]

Your view of what "stands up" means is childish and fallacious. People believed for centuries that the Earth sat at the centre of the universe. That didn't make it right.

You keep using your own definitions and appeal to ignorance to attempt to deny reality. Yes, "people" may have not had a good understanding of astronomy. Really has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

 

[Lapidem]

You keep using your own definitions and appeal to ignorance to attempt to deny reality. Yes, "people" may have not had a good understanding of astronomy. Really has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

Your constant deflection here holds no water. You were trying to justify your belief system based on a numbers game essentially saying it must be true since so many other people believe in it. I point out to you that the same is true of numerous other beliefs like the sun going round the earth or the earth being flat but then you just choose to ignore this. That's plain denial.

Numbers of people choosing to believe something in no way demonstrates that the something is true. Simple fact. It likely means that just like astronomy in past days, the people have poor understanding of what is true today. Talking with most so-called "Christians" it's easy to see why little has changed in all these years. The beliefs are still founded on ignorance, superstition, fearmongering psychology and a total lack of critical thinking coupled with gutless cowardice to confront the reality around them.

 

[Wrangler]

Why should anyone follow his commands?

Because following the commands of God is the only way to live. What a blasphemous question!

 

[Wrangler]

If we are being forced to follow commandments then there is no free will and it's just tyrannical rule. If you're happy to be ruled by a tyrant then that's your choice and good luck to you.

We are slaves. We are ruled by a tyrant in that It is God's way and no other way. We've been over this before.

However, you are falsely equating tyranny with absolute power of God. Another False Alternative. By definition, tyranny is outside the law; God is the law provider. Therefore, it is impossible for God to be a tyrant - by defintion.

There is obvious rebellion in your heart. Attributing such blasphemous attributes of God is the only unforgivable sin. I'll pray for you - again!

 

[Wrangler]

It's entirely feasible for a god to not care about humans and to let them suffer and die particularly if that god is weak/impotent or just uncaring or malevolent.

That's a probability wrapped in speculation and conjecture. Desperate. More blasphemy.

Listen well. God cannot have all these negative attributes AND not exist.

 

[Wrangler]

Regarding the supposition that he is indifferent; why should God care that humans suffer when that is the consequence of their choices (not followed his laws)?

This is utter nonsense and you know it. Can you tell me please what laws or commandments a 5yr old girl has failed to follow when she's being forcibly held down and sexually abused by the likes of Jimmy Savile? What choices did that innocent child make that justify this traumatic experience? Please tell us, we're all ears and need a bit of entertainment

What? You are blind to Orginal Sin and it's consequences. Yes, the 5-yo girl is innocent but her parents weren't and neither were her assailants. If you read Exodus 20, God talks about multiple generations reaping the consequences.

Again, you are being myopic. Extremely myopic. Only in this little sliver of a scenario does your position seem reasonable. In the bigger picture of a fallen world, it is merely the consequences of sin. And being outraged at your scenario designed to fail God, you have failed to answer the question; why should God care that humans suffer when that is the consequence of their choices (not followed his laws)?

 

[Wrangler]

(I look forward to more arrogant moralizing.) As folks like you inexorably head toward the cliff of oblivion, your hard heart is revealed for the pure evil it is, damning God for the consequences of your own choices.

Classic fundy rhetoric. I reject totally your unfounded and ridiculous threats and scaremongering. Get thee behind me.

You are a fool. The beginning of wisdom is fear of the LORD. It is not ridiculous that humans die by default. God has reached out a saving hand - and you, being the fool that you are - slapped it away. God is pursuing you but you keep slapping his saving hand away.

 

[Wrangler]

You'd rather die than repent. You'd rather die than submit to his lordship. Amen. So be it. God will respect your choice - for all time.

You are on the wide path. You have no love in you.

Double standard. You have no love for God.

Also False Alternative. You are again attempting to set the standard AS IF the only way I can prove my love is to not respect your choice. That's how sick you are.

It's not that I don't have love. I have saddness that you are choosing death.

 

[Wrangler]

The famous Atheist philsopher Ayn Ran stated there is only one right - the right to life. That life has an expiration date, by default.

No it doesn't. More lies. Your life has been there since the universe began. It is indestructible.

Wow! What makes you think life is indestructible? I just buried my mother-in-law. I'm sure you know many who've died also.

 

[Wrangler]

God is giving you a choice. Choose life - through his son Jesus - or perish. Choose wisely.

Get thee behind me. You are misguided and have swallowed lies hook line and sinker.

How am I misguided?


So if you believe deep in your heart that God raised Jesus from the pit of death and if you voice your allegiance by confessing the truth that “Jesus is Lord,” then you will be saved!
Romans 10:9 The Voice