If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

[Wrangler]

You were trying to justify your belief system based on a numbers game essentially saying it must be true since so many other people believe in it.

No. My belief system is justified because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There are BILLIONS of witnesses to his glory. You are just in denial, demanding evidence while drowning in evidence.

 

[Lapidem]

We are slaves. We are ruled by a tyrant in that It is God's way and no other way. We've been over this before.

Glad you admit it ! So there's no such thing as free will then. God is a tyrant forcing everyone to his way otherwise he consigns you to hell, at least according to the farcical tenets of mainstream Christianity. There can be no free will if you are under the gun. I don't believe any of this of course because I don't believe your silly conception of god is true, I'm simply pointing out the endless fallacies in the system.

However, you are falsely equating tyranny with absolute power of God. Another False Alternative. By definition, tyranny is outside the law; God is the law provider. Therefore, it is impossible for God to be a tyrant - by defintion.

I'm not going to waste more time with you on your personal definitions of language. We've all seen what a farce that has been throughout this and other threads. Tyrants rule by fear and threats of violence and death.

There is obvious rebellion in your heart. Attributing such blasphemous attributes of God is the only unforgivable sin. I'll pray for you - again!

Blasphemy is the purview of religious zealots and extremists.

The real god is nothing like you believe or describe. It would never consign anyone to hell or eternal torture. It would never seek to force anyone to worship it through any kind of threat or fearmongering. It would take action to help innocent victims where ever it could just as any loving human would for their own children. You've allowed yourself to believe in a ridiculous concept that is totally at odds with the Bible secrets and the stark warnings of Jesus. No worries though. You will be recycled over and over and maybe if in those iterations you can find some shred of humility and cast off your zealous piety and start a proper spiritual/esoteric search you'll find the true thing you need to sustain your form. A real tangible thing, not some mythology handed down to you through generations of other zealots.

 

[Lapidem]

That's a probability wrapped in speculation and conjecture. Desperate. More blasphemy.

Listen well. God cannot have all these negative attributes AND not exist.

You mean YOUR god can't. It's entirely feasible that you are wrong and that god is nothing like you think he/she/it is. Or that there is no god at all. But your blinkers don't permit you to entertain such critical thinking notions.

 

[Lapidem]

What? You are blind to Orginal Sin and it's consequences. Yes, the 5-yo girl is innocent but her parents weren't and neither were her assailants. If you read Exodus 20, God talks about multiple generations reaping the consequences.

Again, you are being myopic. Extremely myopic. Only in this little sliver of a scenario does your position seem reasonable. In the bigger picture of a fallen world, it is merely the consequences of sin. And being outraged at your scenario designed to fail God, you have failed to answer the question; why should God care that humans suffer when that is the consequence of their choices (not followed his laws)?

More fundy nonsense. Original sin is the invented schtick of the church which is needed to establish everyone in a position of vulnerability, failing and need so it can then offer the solution. The weak-minded fall for it.

 

[Wrangler]

The real god is nothing like you believe or describe. It would never consign anyone to hell or eternal torture. It would never seek to force anyone to worship it through any kind of threat or fearmongering.

On this, we agree. I reject eternal suffering.

We disagree about there being no free will. Perhaps you are so sick as to define true free will to mean there are never any consequences to one’s choices.

You mentioned a 5-yo getting gang raped. If there is no free will, there can be no rape, correct?

2nd death means oblivion.

 

[Wrangler]

Original sin is the invented schtick of the church which is needed to establish everyone in a position of vulnerability

Everyone is in a position of vulnerability; we are all going to die.

 

[Lapidem]

You are a fool. The beginning of wisdom is fear of the LORD. It is not ridiculous that humans die by default. God has reached out a saving hand - and you, being the fool that you are - slapped it away. God is pursuing you but you keep slapping his saving hand away.

The fool is the one casting aside his own innate intelligence, reasoning and moral critical hinging in favour of superstition and mythology spoon-feed them by other humans posing as authority. You have no idea what wisdom is.

Proverbs 3:13-20: "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is
better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou
canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. Her ways are
ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that
retaineth her. The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew."

You're so blinkered by your indoctrination that you don't even understand this Bible verse. It's one of the most important there is. It speaks of the true wisdom and the great secret which is more valuable than silver and gold and which offers longevity. But you can't see what it is talking about because you have not the "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" that Jesus said were needed. These things are hidden from you because you are not ready, because you're in shackles and behaving as a zealot.

Anyone with the real "wisdom" knows exactly what that passage is talking about. It's not talking about wisdom itself. It's talking about something else.

 

[Lapidem]

Double standard. You have no love for God.

You keep making this same fundamental mistake. I have no love for YOUR silly childish concept of god which is patently false. I have love for the real "god" though I personally would not use the term "god" at all given how bastardised it has become as a result of false religion.

 

[Lapidem]

How am I misguided?

Matt 13:

He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’ a

 

[Lapidem]

No. My belief system is justified because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There are BILLIONS of witnesses to his glory.

As has been explained to you umpteen times by different posters you don't have billions and most are just blind believers not witnesses of any kind. They have allowed religious indoctrination to shackle their objectivity and are consequently little more than Horoscope believers desperately attributing any positive event to their belief system whilst ignoring all the negative events.

Jesus was healed using the incredible substance that Jesus himself told us about. The same substance he himself used to heal the sick, restore the sight of the blind, raise the recently dead and so on. I assume his disciples (who he had taught these secrets to) administered this substance to him before and after his crucifixion. Everything else is a smoke screen. Mythology used to craft a psychological system of control to enslave humans. Hocus pocus. Preying on people's lack of knowledge and thereby making them believe in magic just as shamans and witchdoctors have done throughout the centuries.

Jesus, if he walked this earth today would likely be appalled at the church and mainstream religion and would set about tearing it all down.

 

[Lapidem]

On this, we agree. I reject eternal suffering.

So you don't believe that part of the Bible then. Another "Pick 'n' Mix" Christian !

We disagree about there being no free will. Perhaps you are so sick as to define true free will to mean there are never any consequences to one’s choices.

For every action there is a reaction. That is the nature of the universe. Free will by its very definition means you can do whatever you will. To have free will you must therefore be omnipotent for otherwise you could not exercise your will and manifest what you wanted. The only entity with free will would be god in your belief system since no human is free to exercise their will. In your world, your god rules everything and says if you do X then I will do Y as punishment. That is not free will. That is tyranny.

It's even worse than that because your god says you must not kill, and yet wilfully kills anyone and everything he decides he wants to. It's a "Do as I say, not as I do" system of rule, which again is simply tyranny.

I reject totally your belief system. It's concepts are asinine and patently absurd.

You mentioned a 5-yo getting gang raped. If there is no free will, there can be no rape, correct?

One assumes that within your belief system the perpetrator is going to be severely punished. So he isn't free to do what he wants he just thinks he is free. Just as a person who walks into a school and shoots people will quickly find that they are shot by police or incarcerated for life. They don't have free will. They are not free to do anything they like. Your god on the other hand is free. If he wants to kill an innocent child then he does so and the Bible recounts he has done that numerous times. As he has also killed men, women and babies.

No-one has free will. The concept is ridiculous. Everyone is constrained by those with more power, more knowledge and more technical advancement. That's a pyramid structure of power and at the top of it sits a tyrant who wants to keep that power and as a result removes or suppresses knowledge and information from those below him.

2nd death means oblivion.

Is that like 2nd breakfast !

Ludicrous. Death is just change, nothing more. You have already "died" numerous times since the universe began. This will go on and on indefinitely.

 

[Lapidem]

Everyone is in a position of vulnerability; we are all going to die.

No, we're all going to change. We will not "die" in the sense you and your fallacious belief system claim.

 

[Wrangler]

The fool is the one casting aside his own innate intelligence, reasoning and moral

Explicitly contradicting the Bible.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
Proverbs 3:5

 

[Wrangler]

On this, we agree. I reject eternal suffering.

So you don't believe that part of the Bible then. Another "Pick 'n' Mix" Christian !

Sir, it is one thing to disagree agreeably. You agree disagreeably.

It's not the Bible but the myth in Christiandom that I don't believe. Hell is derived from Gehenna, which was a place trash was put. Most cities burned their trash and Jerusalem was no exception.

I believe early translators took "the place where the dead go" mistakenly as burning forever in agony.

 

[Wrangler]

Free will by its very definition means you can do whatever you will. To have free will you must therefore be omnipotent for otherwise you could not exercise your will and manifest what you wanted.

Your definitions are absurd. In no way does the gift of Free Will mean we are God for we are still confined by the limitations put on us my our Creator. We cannot fly, breath under water, go to another planet breathing the absence of air along the way. We must eat, sleep and all the other limitations of life forms, including age.

A pattern I've noticed among Atheists, including you, is your propensity to attach new meaning to words to fit your world view.

 

[Wrangler]

You mentioned a 5-yo getting gang raped. If there is no free will, there can be no rape, correct?

One assumes that within your belief system the perpetrator is going to be severely punished. So he isn't free to do what he wants he just thinks he is free. J

Not an answer to my question. If there is no free will, there can be no rape, correct?

 

[Wrangler]

Ludicrous. Death is just change, nothing more.

Your holding back. Death is the ultimate change, the final change of the living. It is the end, oblivion.

 

[Lapidem]

Your definitions are absurd. In no way does the gift of Free Will mean we are God

I never suggested this. I said the only person with free will is your god.

 

[Lapidem]

Not an answer to my question. If there is no free will, there can be no rape, correct?

If there is free will then the victim can prevent herself being raped correct?

 

[Wrangler]

I never suggested this. I said the only person with free will is your god.

And that is wrong because you are distorting what Free Will means to suit your ideology. IF man has no Free Will, our entire system of justice is based on a flawed premise, right?