If Eternal Security Is Conditional...

[Duckybill]

Not only can Christians forsake God and return to their sins, the Bible predicts such.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[Butch5]

Jesus doesn't choose our lives for us. You're proof texting the passages. I also find it hard to believe that you don't sin.

 

[rockytopva]

This eternal security thing is Sardisean in nature (citing http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13598-the-seven-church-ages-per-gods-word/) as it was invented by John Calvin.

Hyper-Calvinism

Hyper-Calvinism first referred to an eccentric view that appeared among the early English Particular Baptists in the 18th century. Their system denied that the call of the gospel to "repent and believe" is directed to every single person and that it is the duty of every person to trust in Christ for salvation. While this doctrine has always been a minority view, it has not been relegated to the past and may still be found in some small denominations and church communities today, most notably Fred Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas, which is infamous for its picketing of soldiers' funerals. The term also occasionally appears in both theological and secular controversial contexts, where it usually connotes a negative opinion about some variety of theological determinism, predestination, or a version of Evangelical Christianity or Calvinism that is deemed by the critic to be unenlightened, harsh, or extreme. (citing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism)

I had a friend who wanted to get saved but did not want to go to my Pentecostal Holiness church. So I took him to a Baptist church. I had a friend named Ray who was die hard Baptist. We went to church on a Sunday night and the guy went forward to get saved. Well since that church had taken the alters out of the sanctuary they took him to a separate room where they proceeded to talk him out of salvation. I am like my goodness! The guy has tears streaming down his cheek! I barged in, said the sinners prayer, and assured my friend that he was indeed saved.

It was the good old Jacobus Arminius who came along around 1600 AD saying that John Calvin was basically full of old Sardisean hot air (citing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_Arminius).

So I am not Calvinist but Armenian. I believe that Christs free gift is something everyone can cling to or walk away from. I believe the possibility of eternal security true to those willing to believe in it, however this is something we human beings can walk away from.

 

[Thankful 1]

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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Every single time, every single instance? Since you have been saved, there has not been a single time that you slipped for just a sec? Are you really claiming to have lived a perfect life since you have been saved? That you have never done something that you knew was wrong since you have been saved?[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]If that is the case, then you need to take a real hard look at what sin is. Because the problem is not with you sinning or not sinning, but with the fact that you believe everything you do is perfect.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Joshua David[/size][/font]

I would like you to understand that beingsaved to me means that one has been judged by God and has been accepted intoHeaven.



Jesus called me into his ministry andpersonally taught me about him for over a year, when one day he told me to gobe cleansed. I knew he meant to goconfess my sins. I was not aware of anysins that I had committed for the last year, but there were many before thatyear. I knew a Catholic priest and hecame over to my residence and heard my confession. The next morning Jesus told me that now I was clean and he coulduse me. That was over thirty years agoand God has protected me form Satan/sin ever since.



For all of you that may believe myunderstanding of sin is liberal, let me share just how tight a reign the HolySpirit keeps on me.



When I was first in to God’s ministryJesus scolded me, and I cried for three days. When I got back to living again and met some people that had cheated intheir dealings with me, I remembered their cheating and started to thinknegative of them. As soon as I startedto think negative of them the Holy Spirit flooded my mind with positivethoughts about the person. I was taughtnot to think negative of people, and that my negative thoughts hurt thosepeople.



If I drop a piece of paper on the street,and even think of just ignoring picking it up the Holy Spirit will not let me.



If someone is in need and I am a littledistracted the Holy Spirit will make sure that I am open to help take care ofthat need. I may not want to bebothered but the Holy Spirit does not give me an out.



What one needs to understand is when aperson becomes a slave of God, he or she will do as God directs him orher. One’s mind is guided by his or herheart/spirit.



There is no way I would deliberatelycommit an act that I knew was wrongful. You see God gives me the grace never to sin. If I refused to take advantage of that gift, and deliberatelysinned, then I would go to Hell.

 

[Joshua David]

If I refused to take advantage of that gift, and deliberatelysinned, then I would go to Hell.

Thankful,


So if you saw a Christian Brother or Sister willingly commit a sin, does that mean that they are completely lost? That there remains no more sacrifice for them? Would you no longer consider them a brother or sister? Would you in fact pity them all the more since they lost their one chance for Salvation?


Joshua David

 

[Duckybill]

If I refused to take advantage of that gift, and deliberatelysinned, then I would go to Hell.

You would go to Hell for one intentional sin? I commend anyone for living a Godly life. But I only know of one sin that is absolutely unforgivable.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Okay, Thankful1,

I completely understand where you're comming from. I completely understand why it is you understand what you read the way you do. No problem.

There was a time when I believed and thought just like you, (as far as I can tell from your writing. )

If you are now absolutely sinless,, Great! Maybe you're a stronger person/believer than the rest of us. I'm not saying it's not possible through Christ. As we live longer and the Lord teaches us, our sins or mistakes become less and less. Some come to full maturity faster than others, some it takes a while, and some it's a rocky bumpy hard road.

One thing I'd like to know is this....

If a person is a believer, and has been saved, and commits any sin, if there is no way for them to be able to repent, WHY WOULD THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICT THEM?

If you're not saved, the Lord wouldn't waste any time to chastise you or discipline you. On that note, why would you need discipline if you never sinned? Also, if there was a time for a whole year that you didn't know you sinned, how can you believe that you don't sin now? On another note, Why do you feel you need to confess to a priest? Another question, Are you Catholic?

 

[Duckybill]

If you're not saved, the Lord wouldn't waste any time to chastise you or discipline you. On that note, why would you need discipline if you never sinned?

Excellent point! Why would God chasten us for not sinning? I am by no means defending living in sin.

Hebrews 12:6 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.

 

[Thankful 1]

Christianity is aSpiritual walk with God. One needs tobe possessed by the Holy Spirit/God to be able to understand and have thevictory over Satan/sin.



One needs to truly betaught by God to come to know God. Readingscripture, listening to a preacher, going to a seminary, doing good works dayand night, will not teach one to know God.



(1 John 2:27) “But youhave not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone toteach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed withtruth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”



Once a person has cometo know God/has become spiritual he or she is then protected fromSatan/sin. Hebrews explains whathappens to those who have become spiritual and deliberately commit sin.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of thetruth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer anysacrifice for them. There is left onlythe dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour yourenemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses isruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may besure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood ofthe covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults theSpirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said:Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the livingGod.”



(Hebrews 6: 4-6) “As for those people whowere once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and receiveda share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and thepowers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it isimpossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Sonof God and openly mocked Him.”















Paul gives us a definition of a Christian that has not yetbecome spiritual, a Christian who has not yet come to know God.



(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you aspeople of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants inChrist. What I fed you with was milk,not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still notready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there isamong you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Christianity is aSpiritual walk with God. One needs tobe possessed by the Holy Spirit/God to be able to understand and have thevictory over Satan/sin.



One needs to truly betaught by God to come to know God. Readingscripture, listening to a preacher, going to a seminary, doing good works dayand night, will not teach one to know God.



(1 John 2:27) “But youhave not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone toteach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed withtruth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”



Once a person has cometo know God/has become spiritual he or she is then protected fromSatan/sin. Hebrews explains whathappens to those who have become spiritual and deliberately commit sin.



(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of thetruth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer anysacrifice for them. There is left onlythe dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour yourenemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses isruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may besure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood ofthe covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults theSpirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said:Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the livingGod.”



(Hebrews 6: 4-6) “As for those people whowere once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and receiveda share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and thepowers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it isimpossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Sonof God and openly mocked Him.”















Paul gives us a definition of a Christian that has not yetbecome spiritual, a Christian who has not yet come to know God.



(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you aspeople of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants inChrist. What I fed you with was milk,not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still notready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there isamong you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

I agree with the first part of what you said. However, I don't believe your explaination of these verses. This isn't to say that your understanding is without merrit. I see what you mean, and I believe in the idea and long for a time when we are all sinless. I do believe it's possible for a human through God to live sinless.

At this point, I'm going to drop out of this part of the conversation. We're running in circles. Maybe later my understanding may change and we can come back to this.

Blessings to you.

 

[timf]

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they notthen sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

"have" = ECHO = to hold (present active indicative)

1John 1:8 If we say that sin we are not having, ourselves we are leading astray , and the truth is not in us. (Wuest - professor (Greek) emeritus Moody Bible Institute)

Verb tenses can make a significant impact on understanding a particular verse. For example if forgiveness is continual, then we have a different view than if it occurs once in the past. The idea of once in the past opens up a can of worms;

1. You can lose your salvation.
2. You do not sin.
3. Sin is just big things.

This is the path the Pharisees were on. The rich young ruler said that he had kept all the commandments from his youth. Yet on the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus expanded the definition of the law to include the purpose of the heart using lust and murder as examples.

We can read that the purpose of the law is to show us our complete inability to keep it and our subsequent need for Jesus. If when we became a Christian, we instantly became sinless like Jesus, we would have no need of Him.

 

[Thankful 1]

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

"have" = ECHO = to hold (present active indicative)

1John 1:8 If we say that sin we are not having, ourselves we are leading astray , and the truth is not in us. (Wuest - professor (Greek) emeritus Moody Bible Institute)

Verb tenses can make a significant impact on understanding a particular verse. For example if forgiveness is continual, then we have a different view than if it occurs once in the past. The idea of once in the past opens up a can of worms;

1. You can lose your salvation.
2. You do not sin.
3. Sin is just big things.

This is the path the Pharisees were on. The rich young ruler said that he had kept all the commandments from his youth. Yet on the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus expanded the definition of the law to include the purpose of the heart using lust and murder as examples.

We can read that the purpose of the law is to show us our complete inability to keep it and our subsequent need for Jesus. If when we became a Christian, we instantly became sinless like Jesus, we would have no need of Him.

I will tell you something and you would be well advised tolisten. Jesus personally taught me andhe pointed out those scriptures to me. He also explained them to me.



You don’t realize it but your teachers about God havepicked out verses and told you what they believe they mean. You have believedman’s teachings about God, and those teachings are not of God.



Ask yourself if any of your teachers were still sinners,and if they were or are then they are of Satan. So that means that Satan was your teacher.



(1John 5:18) “ We know that anyone born of Goddoes not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and theevil one cannot harm him



(1 John 3:8) “Hewho does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinningfrom the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy thedevil's work”

 

[Duckybill]

I will tell you something and you would be well advised tolisten. Jesus personally taught me andhe pointed out those scriptures to me.

Are you saying that Jesus appeared to you? If so, how do you know it was Jesus?

 

[Thankful 1]

Are you saying that Jesus appeared to you? If so, how do you know it was Jesus?

(John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter thesheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and arobber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. Thewatchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he hasbrought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow himbecause they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run awayfrom him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."


Jesus has appeared to me many times over the last thirtysome years. You ask how do I know itwas Jesus, well in some ways the same way Paul knew it was Jesus.



Jesus gave me many of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He has healed people through me. He has me walking a sinless life. A number of miracles have happened in Jesus’name through me. Jesus has told me heis God, and he told me that the bible is his written Word. Jesus is my Lord and God. I only trust in Jesus.



Remember Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit. Well the tree he planted in me only bearsgood fruit. That to me is the greatestproof that it is God who has been teaching me for over thirty years.



Everything Jesus has taught me about him is scriptural. Scripture that says just what is written,and not scripture that has to be reinterpreted to be understood.



Example: Jesus told me we were not to hurt/harm anyone forany reason.



(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and toothfor tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked manno resistance.”

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus has appeared to me many times over the last thirtysome years. You ask how do I know itwas Jesus, well in some ways the same way Paul knew it was Jesus.

Actually, I was wondering how you knew it wasn't Satan.


2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

 

[Foreigner]

Actually, I was wondering how you knew it wasn't Satan.


2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

-- Actually, Ducky has a point. What convinced you that it was Jesus?

 

[Thankful 1]

-- Actually, Ducky has a point. What convinced you that it was Jesus?

Did you read post #54?

 

[Joshua David]

Did you read post #54?

Can I point out something here please... When someone claims that Jesus appeared to them, I am, like many of the rest of you, a little skeptical. But, how do we know that Thankful isn't telling the truth? Do I think that it is impossible for Jesus to appear to someone? No, I do not. I believe that he appeared to people in the old testament in the form of the 'Angel of the Lord'. I believe that he appeared to both John on the Isle of Patmos, and to Paul, both of which was after his resurrection, and I think we all agree, if nothing else, that he appeared to people while he was alive before the crucifixion. And we also agree that as God, he certainly has the power to appear to anyone at anytime, should he desire it.

Now I am not saying that we should accept what anyone says, just because they claim that "Jesus appeared to me, and told me so." I am not claiming that at all. I am just saying that we shouldn't totally dismiss the idea out of hand, just because we think that it is unlikely.

Joshua David

 

[Foreigner]

Did you read post #54?

-- Yes I did. The question stands.

 

[Duckybill]

Satan can appear and say he is Jesus. He can be very persuasive. There is a way to know.