If's...

[Nancy]

There are lot's of "IF'S in Gods Word. And it is never about God Himself but us! Only He is perfectly faithful and does NOT waver. We, on the other hand...mmmnnnot so much. I know there are way more scriptures pertaining to the "if's" but, here are some that come to me:

Deutoronomy 26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
27 the a blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today;

28 and the acurse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God,"

Deutoronomy 28:13 “The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me"

"If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; – Psalm 66:18

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;" – Romans 10:9

It seems that His promises are indeed conditional=free will??
Anyone care to chime in?

 

[Helen]

There are lot's of "IF'S in Gods Word. And it is never about God Himself but us! Only He is perfectly faithful and does NOT waver. We, on the other hand...mmmnnnot so much. I know there are way more scriptures pertaining to the "if's" but, here are some that come to me:

Deutoronomy 26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
27 the a blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today;

28 and the acurse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God,"

Deutoronomy 28:13 “The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me"

"If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; – Psalm 66:18

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;" – Romans 10:9

It seems that His promises are indeed conditional=free will??
Anyone care to chime in?

..yes indeed..I am chiming in!!

The if's used to bother me, until...
I came to the point that IF it was all down to me...then it would never ever get done...because I just cannot.

Philippians 1 is where I landed. 6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.."
Not only does He first call us, but He then gives us the ability to follow...He will never lead us wrong.
I think the Enemy loves the IF'S

Back in 1981 I did a bible study and circled all the IF's I could find...I almost got myself "unsaved"...!!!! They all weighed very heavy...I was ready to give up!!

Then I remembered Satan coming to Jesus in the wilderness three times..
... " IF thou be the Son of God then...."
We know that Jesus answered with- " It is written....."

So for every IF, there is also an "It is written..."

I loved reading the stories of Mumfi to my grandkids.
( also the Disney movie)
We have Scarecrow what was a "What-iff-er"... Then Scarecrow learned to see the other side and answer to all his... "what-if's ".

Blessing...H

 

[Nancy]

..yes indeed..I am chiming in!!

The if's used to bother me, until...
I came to the point that IF it was all down to me...then it would never ever get done...because I just cannot.

Philippians 1 is where I landed. 6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.."
Not only does He first call us, but He then gives us the ability to follow...He will never lead us wrong.
I think the Enemy loves the IF'S

Back in 1981 I did a bible study and circled all the IF's I could find...I almost got myself "unsaved"...!!!! They all weighed very heavy...I was ready to give up!!

Then I remembered Satan coming to Jesus in the wilderness three times..
... " IF thou be the Son of God then...."
We know that Jesus answered with- " It is written....."

So for every IF, there is also an "It is written..."

I loved reading the stories of Mumfi to my grandkids.
( also the Disney movie)
We have Scarecrow what was a "What-iff-er"... Then Scarecrow learned to see the other side and answer to all his... "what-if's ".

Blessing...H

"I almost got myself "unsaved" LOL...NEVER!
I know what you mean, they did the same to me...the if's. I now see them as promises because IF we follow His ways, He will make our paths smooth and His ways are SO much higher than ours so...IF we follow His ways...we will be blessed in every way ♥ He will fill us with all of His promises!

 

[Helen]

"I almost got myself "unsaved" LOL...NEVER!
I know what you mean, they did the same to me...the if's. I now see them as promises because IF we follow His ways, He will make our paths smooth and His ways are SO much higher than ours so...IF we follow His ways...we will be blessed in every way ♥ He will fill us with all of His promises!

I also see the OT commands like that too...
Once through the cross, they are now...

Thou shalt not ....
Thou shalt not...
etc etc..
He changes the negative into a positive... If and when we follow His Way.....
we will not do what we once did.."We shall not.."

 

[FHII]

People who hold to free will use the "if" as proof that we have free will. There is another point of view: the "ifs" are more about identification than a letter of free will. In other words, they don't indicate we have free will but instead tell us who is predestinated for what purpose.

However, I don't like participating in free will type discussions anymore. I only do it now because it is an interesting topic and a worthy one. What I don't like about "free will/predestinated" discussions is the meaningless of them.

They are meaningless because either way you are not excused from responsibility (and I am not talking about works of the flesh) and you aren't given the knowledge you will finish your time on Earth "in the faith". God gives that diploma when you finish!

So if we must still continue to the end and God doesn't tell us if we will... What good is it all? I believe God knows who will and yes I believe he predestinates... But I don't see him revealing it by name. The only possible exception are Peter, Paul and John.

BUT what "ifs" do is give us a direction. They are our biblical maps. It is vital information whether you believe in free will or predestination.

 

[Helen]

People who hold to free will use the "if" as proof that we have free will. There is another point of view: the "ifs" are more about identification than a letter of free will. In other words, they don't indicate we have free will but instead tell us who is predestinated for what purpose.

However, I don't like participating in free will type discussions anymore. I only do it now because it is an interesting topic and a worthy one. What I don't like about "free will/predestinated" discussions is the meaningless of them.

They are meaningless because either way you are not excused from responsibility (and I am not talking about works of the flesh) and you aren't given the knowledge you will finish your time on Earth "in the faith". God gives that diploma when you finish!

So if we must still continue to the end and God doesn't tell us if we will... What good is it all? I believe God knows who will and yes I believe he predestinates... But I don't see him revealing it by name. The only possible exception are Peter, Paul and John.

BUT what "ifs" do is give us a direction. They are our biblical maps. It is vital information whether you believe in free will or predestination.

Good post...I like that

 

[Helen]

@Nancy

Thinking of you...

There are lots of situations in our lives that don’t make sense to us.
We worry and wonder and coax and try to fix and we can’t figure out why all we get is a big question mark.
When dreams die and despair grows and sorrow builds and hope plummets … we just want to fix it all. But, when we really trust God, we won’t have to try to figure it all out and fix what doesn’t make sense to us.

Instead, we can lean hard on the God who knows all.
We can look at all the hard things in our lives and just say, “Lord.… I don’t get it!
And, We don’t have to. ” So, take a break today.
We can stop trying to fix it and just focus our eyes on Jesus instead.

 

[Enoch111]

Anyone care to chime in?

What you have quoted comes from the blessings and curses which were an integral part of the Old Covenant. They are a warning to Christians to walk in newness of life.

However, under the New Covenant, this is the only "IF" that matters:

ROMANS 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Of course, that is only step #1. There is much more to being saved and working out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Episkopos]

Salvation is conditional...and remains conditional until we finish our race here on this physical plane. But that doesn't sell well so people just drop the "if's" so as to make certainty appear as coming from the bible.

...the holey bible. (full of holes)

 

[CoreIssue]

Salvation is conditional...and remains conditional until we finish our race here on this physical plane. But that doesn't sell well so people just drop the "if's" so as to make certainty appear as coming from the bible.

...the holey bible. (full of holes)

Romans 8 said you are wrong.

Back to your Gnostic cave.

 

[Helen]

Salvation is conditional...and remains conditional until we finish our race here on this physical plane. But that doesn't sell well so people just drop the "if's" so as to make certainty appear as coming from the bible.

...the holey bible. (full of holes)

Can't agree.
Once we are saved, there are no conditions but faith, true faith in what He has done.

What is conditional is our position in the kingdom. Close or in the back 40...

What conditions do you see other than Faith?
That puts us back 'working' to keep a gift that were have received

 

[Episkopos]

Can't agree.
Once we are saved, there are no conditions but faith, true faith in what He has done.

What is conditional is our position in the kingdom. Close or in the back 40...

What conditions do you see other than Faith?
That puts us back 'working' to keep a gift that were have received

It depends how we view salvation. If we see a saved status that we can own...so it is "mine"...then we are seeing God as a possession of ours.

We can be the Lord's and still be under the law. We are learning. The law becomes our tutor...to bring us to Christ in every way. Not only to bring into the experience of Christ but also to His character. As such we may need a time of conditioning under the law.

In this way we go in and out of the Spirit.

Remember when John says in Revelation...I was IN the Spirit on the Lord's day. That assumes that he was not ALWAYS in the Spirit.

So then we can't see this 2 dimensionaly. God does what He has to do to save us in the larger sense.

Even Paul gave over a man to satan so that he would have his soul conditioned to receive salvation later. So God can still watch over us when we are under the law. Again...the law is a tutor till we come to Christ...or back to Christ.

We are never out of God's oversight.

God remains in control of they who are His. But God's ways are not so neat and tidy from a religious POV.

People are dogmatic so often...God is never dogmatic.

 

[Dave L]

There are lot's of "IF'S in Gods Word. And it is never about God Himself but us! Only He is perfectly faithful and does NOT waver. We, on the other hand...mmmnnnot so much. I know there are way more scriptures pertaining to the "if's" but, here are some that come to me:

Deutoronomy 26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
27 the a blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today;

28 and the acurse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God,"

Deutoronomy 28:13 “The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me"

"If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; – Psalm 66:18

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;" – Romans 10:9

It seems that His promises are indeed conditional=free will??
Anyone care to chime in?

You need to differentiate between "characteristics" of those who believe. That is, if you confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, you will be saved. Not because you do this, but instead those who do this are saved. It is a characteristic of those whom God saves.

In the OT passages, the law could not save. So God threatened death for disobedience and promised temporal rewards for obedience. He would say, If you do this you will prosper. If you do not you will lose all and even die.

 

[Taken]

There are lot's of "IF'S in Gods Word. And it is never about God Himself but us! Only He is perfectly faithful and does NOT waver. We, on the other hand...mmmnnnot so much. I know there are way more scriptures pertaining to the "if's" but, here are some that come to me:

Deutoronomy 26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
27 the a blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today;

28 and the acurse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God,"

Deutoronomy 28:13 “The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me"

"If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; – Psalm 66:18

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;" – Romans 10:9

It seems that His promises are indeed conditional=free will??
Anyone care to chime in?

BINGO! Many IF's in Scripture AND many "THEN's" depending upon one accomplishing the "IF".

Glory to God,
God Bless you,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

It depends how we view salvation. If we see a saved status that we can own...so it is "mine"...then we are seeing God as a possession of ours.

We can be the Lord's and still be under the law. We are learning. The law becomes our tutor...to bring us to Christ in every way. Not only to bring into the experience of Christ but also to His character. As such we may need a time of conditioning under the law.

In this way we go in and out of the Spirit.

Remember when John says in Revelation...I was IN the Spirit on the Lord's day. That assumes that he was not ALWAYS in the Spirit.

So then we can't see this 2 dimensionaly. God does what He has to do to save us in the larger sense.

Even Paul gave over a man to satan so that he would have his soul conditioned to receive salvation later. So God can still watch over us when we are under the law. Again...the law is a tutor till we come to Christ...or back to Christ.

We are never out of God's oversight.

God remains in control of they who are His. But God's ways are not so neat and tidy from a religious POV.

People are dogmatic so often...God is never dogmatic.

Romans 8
Salvation is a gift from God. It is unconditional grace

Predestined to those he foreknew would love him all the way to glorification.

It is in his hand and no one can take us from him. No one.

 

[Dave L]

Romans 8
Salvation is a gift from God. It is unconditional grace

Predestined to those he foreknew would love him all the way to glorification.

It is in his hand and no one can take us from him. No one.

If foreseen = not grace. But earned wages.

 

[CoreIssue]

If foreseen = not grace. But earned wages.

Foreseen by God.

Your comprehension ability is about a -9.

 

[Nancy]

BINGO! Many IF's in Scripture AND many "THEN's" depending upon one accomplishing the "IF".

Glory to God,
God Bless you,
Taken

So simple yet so difficult too! ♥

 

[APAK]

There are lot's of "IF'S in Gods Word. And it is never about God Himself but us! Only He is perfectly faithful and does NOT waver. We, on the other hand...mmmnnnot so much. I know there are way more scriptures pertaining to the "if's" but, here are some that come to me:

Deutoronomy 26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
27 the a blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today;

28 and the acurse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the Lord your God,"

Deutoronomy 28:13 “The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me"

"If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; – Psalm 66:18

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;" – Romans 10:9

It seems that His promises are indeed conditional=free will??
Anyone care to chime in?

Nancy: True believers comply and execute these 'ifs,'not of their own natural free-will as they are bought as slaves of God through Christ and are compelled with the new spirit to say 'yes' effortlessly. It's really not a decision as we understand it in a carnal sense. It is never a carnal so-called free-will decision. The spirit is in them and they are baptized in it! How then can they make spiritual decisions on their own from that point forth? Impossible! Before the spirit of life they made all the decisions on their own and it came/comes to nothing - no true spiritual transformation. Only the faker believers reckon they are truly transformed and make spiritual decisions through their own efforts or through their own proud free-will mechanism. Not I...

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Nancy]

Nancy: True believers comply and execute these 'ifs,'not of their own natural free-will as they are bought as slaves of God through Christ and are compelled with the new spirit to say 'yes' effortlessly. It's really not a decision as we understand it in a carnal sense. It is never a carnal so-called free-will decision. The spirit is in them and they are baptized in it! How then can they make spiritual decisions on their own from that point forth? Impossible! Before the spirit of life they made all the decisions on their own and it came/comes to nothing - no true spiritual transformation. Only the faker believers reckon they are truly transformed and make spiritual decisions through their own efforts or through their own proud free-will mechanism. Not I...

Bless you,

APAK

Hi Apak,
I consider myself a bond-servant/slave to Christ because He called me, and I gladly serve Him. He did not force me into anything and, I do not believe He ever would. He loved me first, He died in my place, He blesses me and keeps me. I could walk away if I so chose but, I choose life so...He IS the ONLY true Life...where else would I ever want to be but under His direction? I hardly know all truth where this is concerned yet, I cannot stop believing what I have come to believe. They have changed over the years and I am sure they will again as I grow. Also, how do you equate free will with pride? And, why would a good God have to force people to love Him?
Just my thoughts ♥