Illegitimate God, or illegitimate churches?
- Thread starter Hopeless
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Folks, hurting people are sometimes blinded by their pain. As a result, they cannot see things properly.
When dealing with hurting people, one needs to be tactful, gentile and diplomatic, just as Jesus was when He encountered hurting people.
Obviously, the author of this thread's OP is a hurting person. So, how about trying the "Jesus" approach to his pain?
When dealing with hurting people, one needs to be tactful, gentile and diplomatic, just as Jesus was when He encountered hurting people.
Obviously, the author of this thread's OP is a hurting person. So, how about trying the "Jesus" approach to his pain?
I am very much afraid that this thread is turning in to a mud slinging match.
It appears that on one side we have those who feel it is okay to scoff at someone's pain (regardless of what you feel is legitamate in Hopeless' story, it is clear he is in pain, and if you cannot respond to him by saying what you need to without a little compassion tossed in there, then why oh why are you kidding yourselves that you are the 'better' Christians??).
And then....Hopeless. Welcome here, and I truly do hope you find some...well, hope! Truly....God loves you and can help you conqueor your past hurts. I know there are many, many Christians who do not respond as Christ would...but we are human, sadly we trip and fall often. But that does not mean all Christians are 'bad', or that our oft times poor behaviour reflects apon our Lord. Jesus is perfect...in his love and forgiveness. Please try and remember that every time a Christian fails to be Christlike, that they are failing themselves and their relationship with Christ more than they are failing anyone else.
The other thing I feel I must say is; while some on this thread have been less than gracious, some here have been sincere in their comments. It's very true that you mustn't poor blame on some Churches for not helping you if you are not a member or have never been there. Consider; how many people do you think try and take advantage of Churches? In the tiny town I live in you would think it be few, but it's not. There is often a steady stream of people who have spent all there money on drink or drugs, and figure the Church will pay their bills. God calls the Church to be generous and loving....but not to be stupid. To hand out money to someone who expects handouts, will only be hurting them in the long run, and there will be zero return for God's mission. The drunk won't 'praise god' that he's pulled the wool over the churches eyes. He will laugh and scoff how stupid 'christians' are, and rock up again next week for more money.
My point is that most Churches have a God appointed duty to 'shephard' the Church well...both flock and money...money, I will add, that is Gods, and to be used for God mission. So you must understand that if a Church doesn't know you, doesn't understand your background and needs...it actually behooves them to not just 'handout'. But they should, in all of them should have, invited you in. They should encourage you with prayers, with invitations to church, to biblestudy. Woo you with love. Because honestly...more than anything, love is what we need. It will fix so many problems.
So Hopless....some here have tried to give you solid advice like this...trying to nudge you towards an understanding that to become a Church member, or to fit into a church and live 'under the wing' of that congregation....it's a two way street. Indeed, we must always be asking 'what can I do for my church' not demanding things from it. And it seems to me that to some of these suggestions, you've reacted a little aggressively. Please try and understand that people here do care, and that caring will be voiced in suggestions. You've come here and poored out your story, your feelings and desires....that's ok. But if people care, they will respond to that by trying to give you help. Please don't attack them...that will only lead to arguements and then no good will come of anything.
It appears that on one side we have those who feel it is okay to scoff at someone's pain (regardless of what you feel is legitamate in Hopeless' story, it is clear he is in pain, and if you cannot respond to him by saying what you need to without a little compassion tossed in there, then why oh why are you kidding yourselves that you are the 'better' Christians??).
And then....Hopeless. Welcome here, and I truly do hope you find some...well, hope! Truly....God loves you and can help you conqueor your past hurts. I know there are many, many Christians who do not respond as Christ would...but we are human, sadly we trip and fall often. But that does not mean all Christians are 'bad', or that our oft times poor behaviour reflects apon our Lord. Jesus is perfect...in his love and forgiveness. Please try and remember that every time a Christian fails to be Christlike, that they are failing themselves and their relationship with Christ more than they are failing anyone else.
The other thing I feel I must say is; while some on this thread have been less than gracious, some here have been sincere in their comments. It's very true that you mustn't poor blame on some Churches for not helping you if you are not a member or have never been there. Consider; how many people do you think try and take advantage of Churches? In the tiny town I live in you would think it be few, but it's not. There is often a steady stream of people who have spent all there money on drink or drugs, and figure the Church will pay their bills. God calls the Church to be generous and loving....but not to be stupid. To hand out money to someone who expects handouts, will only be hurting them in the long run, and there will be zero return for God's mission. The drunk won't 'praise god' that he's pulled the wool over the churches eyes. He will laugh and scoff how stupid 'christians' are, and rock up again next week for more money.
My point is that most Churches have a God appointed duty to 'shephard' the Church well...both flock and money...money, I will add, that is Gods, and to be used for God mission. So you must understand that if a Church doesn't know you, doesn't understand your background and needs...it actually behooves them to not just 'handout'. But they should, in all of them should have, invited you in. They should encourage you with prayers, with invitations to church, to biblestudy. Woo you with love. Because honestly...more than anything, love is what we need. It will fix so many problems.
So Hopless....some here have tried to give you solid advice like this...trying to nudge you towards an understanding that to become a Church member, or to fit into a church and live 'under the wing' of that congregation....it's a two way street. Indeed, we must always be asking 'what can I do for my church' not demanding things from it. And it seems to me that to some of these suggestions, you've reacted a little aggressively. Please try and understand that people here do care, and that caring will be voiced in suggestions. You've come here and poored out your story, your feelings and desires....that's ok. But if people care, they will respond to that by trying to give you help. Please don't attack them...that will only lead to arguements and then no good will come of anything.
Dodo_David and Rach,
I agree with you we should not "scoff at someone's pain" and we should reach out to help hurting people by approaching them as Jesus would. However, I don't think Jesus would allow someone to attack His father or religion in general with lies or deceit. We must remember "Though shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor" and what Proverbs 6:16-19 says along with many other writings in the bible about deceit and lying.
I would love to discuss religion with "HOPELESS" and soften their heart toward religious people. I may not be able to convince him/her that there is a God and that Jesus died for our sins, but I would at least hope to convince them to stop attacking religion. (which is the purpose of their life story)
"HOPELESS" has also posted this same story on a Baptist forum WWW.ONLINEBAPTIST.COM with a slight modification to the story so he/she can attack the Baptist faith. And, in 2011 using the name "BETTEROFFDEAD" someone posted the same story on WWW.DEBATINGCHRISTIANITY.COM
I have done my research and have other information that "HOPELESS" is regularly online to attack religion. I would NEVER attack a hurting person but I will call a liar a liar. And we know what the bible says about liars. Proverbs 12:22
I agree with you we should not "scoff at someone's pain" and we should reach out to help hurting people by approaching them as Jesus would. However, I don't think Jesus would allow someone to attack His father or religion in general with lies or deceit. We must remember "Though shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor" and what Proverbs 6:16-19 says along with many other writings in the bible about deceit and lying.
I would love to discuss religion with "HOPELESS" and soften their heart toward religious people. I may not be able to convince him/her that there is a God and that Jesus died for our sins, but I would at least hope to convince them to stop attacking religion. (which is the purpose of their life story)
"HOPELESS" has also posted this same story on a Baptist forum WWW.ONLINEBAPTIST.COM with a slight modification to the story so he/she can attack the Baptist faith. And, in 2011 using the name "BETTEROFFDEAD" someone posted the same story on WWW.DEBATINGCHRISTIANITY.COM
I have done my research and have other information that "HOPELESS" is regularly online to attack religion. I would NEVER attack a hurting person but I will call a liar a liar. And we know what the bible says about liars. Proverbs 12:22
Tom55....I have zero problem with calling something like it is....we all know Jesus did. And often it is necessary when defending the faith and truth...to take a stand and budge not an inch.
The problem I have with online behaviour, is that it is so difficult to discern truth from lie....not without personal information...and that's something we don't get much of here...all we have is a few posts in which to 'figure' someone out. We might say to ourselves "that doesn't sound right...that makes even less sense"...but its a simple fact that people think differently to one another, and express themselves differently as well. It takes careful conversation and enquiry to be able to truly dig out what their heart intent is.
And it's that reason that I...even when feeling I must call a spade a spade, prefer to do it without a 'tone' if you catch my drift. Because lets face it....does it hurt us to treat any and all with a Christ like attitude, no matter where they're coming from? And honestly...I find being 'nasty' hurts my heart and soul, much more than it does the person it is aimed at.
The problem I have with online behaviour, is that it is so difficult to discern truth from lie....not without personal information...and that's something we don't get much of here...all we have is a few posts in which to 'figure' someone out. We might say to ourselves "that doesn't sound right...that makes even less sense"...but its a simple fact that people think differently to one another, and express themselves differently as well. It takes careful conversation and enquiry to be able to truly dig out what their heart intent is.
And it's that reason that I...even when feeling I must call a spade a spade, prefer to do it without a 'tone' if you catch my drift. Because lets face it....does it hurt us to treat any and all with a Christ like attitude, no matter where they're coming from? And honestly...I find being 'nasty' hurts my heart and soul, much more than it does the person it is aimed at.
To echo what Rach says above, when in doubt, take the gentle way. That way we don't risk breaking a bruised reed or snuffing out a smoldering wick.
Rach and Dodo,
In my humble opinion it was obvious HOPELESS was being deceitful. Not only was the entire life story questionable, the three post HOPELESS made in response to others showed no intent of opening up a conversation about their situation or religion in general. Isn't that what this website is about? I find it sad that you are being more hypocritical of ME than HOPELESS who was obviously a liar and being deceitful. Rach: You talk about my "tone" when dealing with HOPELESS, however, I have yet to see you post anything about the lie HOPELESS posted and his/her "tone" in their response to Suhar or Arnie. DODO: I had no "doubt" that it was a lie and felt NO risk in "breaking a bruised reed". I realize I have not made enough post on this site for you to asses my intent, heart or debate style, however, I assure you I would never "snuff out a smoldering wick". Also, I will never allow a deceitful liar to continue their deceit or lies because we know "the lord detest lying lips...". Do you two?
Arnie Manitoba recognized immediately that the story was, in his words, a "scam". I suspect Arnie had a gut feeling and went with it. Good job Arnie
. I actually took the time to read the "life story" of hopeless and tried to make sense of it. It didn't make sense. I did my research and I read the entire story. Did you? Based on my research and common sense I called a liar a liar which is exactly what Jesus would have done. I am not fit to follow in His steps but I will attempt too everyday of my life.
I respect both of your opinions and appreciate DODO being a moderator. My offer is still open to the real HOPELESS; I would love to discuss religion and Jesus with you and hopefully soften your heart. However, as in the past, HOPELESS has probably already left this discussion and we will never hear from him/her again.
Respectfully, TOM55
In my humble opinion it was obvious HOPELESS was being deceitful. Not only was the entire life story questionable, the three post HOPELESS made in response to others showed no intent of opening up a conversation about their situation or religion in general. Isn't that what this website is about? I find it sad that you are being more hypocritical of ME than HOPELESS who was obviously a liar and being deceitful. Rach: You talk about my "tone" when dealing with HOPELESS, however, I have yet to see you post anything about the lie HOPELESS posted and his/her "tone" in their response to Suhar or Arnie. DODO: I had no "doubt" that it was a lie and felt NO risk in "breaking a bruised reed". I realize I have not made enough post on this site for you to asses my intent, heart or debate style, however, I assure you I would never "snuff out a smoldering wick". Also, I will never allow a deceitful liar to continue their deceit or lies because we know "the lord detest lying lips...". Do you two?
Arnie Manitoba recognized immediately that the story was, in his words, a "scam". I suspect Arnie had a gut feeling and went with it. Good job Arnie
. I actually took the time to read the "life story" of hopeless and tried to make sense of it. It didn't make sense. I did my research and I read the entire story. Did you? Based on my research and common sense I called a liar a liar which is exactly what Jesus would have done. I am not fit to follow in His steps but I will attempt too everyday of my life. I respect both of your opinions and appreciate DODO being a moderator. My offer is still open to the real HOPELESS; I would love to discuss religion and Jesus with you and hopefully soften your heart. However, as in the past, HOPELESS has probably already left this discussion and we will never hear from him/her again.
Respectfully, TOM55
Thank you tom55 .... you have understood everything correctly
Everyone else .... I can smell those guys a mile away .... yet I waited , not wanting to blow hopeless completely away ... and when I did post it was simply a blanket statement which said .....
, Most scams start out with .... poor poor me .... they soften up your heart .... and then ask you for something.
It was not directed at him and he was free to reply however he wanted .... and that would define him and his motives .... If I was wrong he would have apologized for coming across that way and rephrased his intentions and I would have been the first to accommodate him
If I was correct ... he would reply in an abrasive manner (which is exactly what he did)
He set himself up and defined his true self , and it required no action from me .... and I was correct .... he was a spam , scam , or troll , or all three.
Trust your instincts folks , we out of everybody should have discernment , wait until times get tough , it will get even harder to figure out who is who
This forum gets more than it;s fair share of one time poster who dump their garbage like a hit and run .... the moderators never seem to do anything about it so I try to put up a red flag for everybody
Look back at some of those one time posts .... they hit and run and get the rest of us arguing for weeks afterwards and they never come back .... and that is the whole purpose . they like to stir trouble
And I never feel obligated to accommodate them or apologize for pointing them out
Best wishes
AM
Everyone else .... I can smell those guys a mile away .... yet I waited , not wanting to blow hopeless completely away ... and when I did post it was simply a blanket statement which said .....
, Most scams start out with .... poor poor me .... they soften up your heart .... and then ask you for something.
It was not directed at him and he was free to reply however he wanted .... and that would define him and his motives .... If I was wrong he would have apologized for coming across that way and rephrased his intentions and I would have been the first to accommodate him
If I was correct ... he would reply in an abrasive manner (which is exactly what he did)
He set himself up and defined his true self , and it required no action from me .... and I was correct .... he was a spam , scam , or troll , or all three.
Trust your instincts folks , we out of everybody should have discernment , wait until times get tough , it will get even harder to figure out who is who
This forum gets more than it;s fair share of one time poster who dump their garbage like a hit and run .... the moderators never seem to do anything about it so I try to put up a red flag for everybody
Look back at some of those one time posts .... they hit and run and get the rest of us arguing for weeks afterwards and they never come back .... and that is the whole purpose . they like to stir trouble
And I never feel obligated to accommodate them or apologize for pointing them out
Best wishes
AM
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Well, I stand by what I wrote......never meant to accuse anyone of being heartless - I was trying to describe the nature of message boards. So if anyone was offended, I apologize. As far as cuddling a liar or other sinner, I will risk it every time.
See...the problem I have is that I've known too many people who are...different. You may all be very right, and hopeless could be running a scam...goodness knows I haven't been around the forum block to much...! And he certainly does contradict himself often.
But....I do know of many people who look at the world differently. They express themselves differently, they think differently. And while going on a sob story is not how we would explain our lives...not everyone is the same. Does this mean we have to agree with what he said and think he's brilliant? No. But it doesn't hurt us to respond with a bit of heart, regardless the person or the motivations behind them.
Let me put it another way. I'm married to an autistic man, and have an autistic son. Both are high functioning, so it takes a bit of closer aquaintance to see it. But because of who they are, socially sometimes they are just rude. They see things differently, understand them differently. And they cannot understand how calling something how they see it, is rude...it's just a fact to them. If you were talking to them when they said something that just makes no sense to you (and it happens!!!) I would hope you would treat them with respect or just plain politeness until it had been sorted out. Being polite takes no real effort on our behalf, but means the world to others. How often have I seen my boy and my man just cut emotionally, because someone couldn't take the time or effort to be a decent human being to them.
Now, as far as my "not calling Hopeless out on his tone"...actually I did. I told him that his response to the genuine answers he was being given, was not okay. That if he was going to ask for opinions and help, and also condradict himself on some points, he had to expect to actually recieve answers, and to expect people to point out those condratictions. For a 'first encounter' with a person we have not really pegged yet, that was, I felt, a good beginning. If he had then continued on to attack those answering him, I would have gone up another level. But he seems to have not returned. So...does that mean he was a con, and disappeared now people are "on to him", or does it mean he truly was hurting and the responses he received here pushed him away? I don't know...and my point is that you cannot know either. It's entirely possible to not fall for a con while being polite...
But....I do know of many people who look at the world differently. They express themselves differently, they think differently. And while going on a sob story is not how we would explain our lives...not everyone is the same. Does this mean we have to agree with what he said and think he's brilliant? No. But it doesn't hurt us to respond with a bit of heart, regardless the person or the motivations behind them.
Let me put it another way. I'm married to an autistic man, and have an autistic son. Both are high functioning, so it takes a bit of closer aquaintance to see it. But because of who they are, socially sometimes they are just rude. They see things differently, understand them differently. And they cannot understand how calling something how they see it, is rude...it's just a fact to them. If you were talking to them when they said something that just makes no sense to you (and it happens!!!) I would hope you would treat them with respect or just plain politeness until it had been sorted out. Being polite takes no real effort on our behalf, but means the world to others. How often have I seen my boy and my man just cut emotionally, because someone couldn't take the time or effort to be a decent human being to them.
Now, as far as my "not calling Hopeless out on his tone"...actually I did. I told him that his response to the genuine answers he was being given, was not okay. That if he was going to ask for opinions and help, and also condradict himself on some points, he had to expect to actually recieve answers, and to expect people to point out those condratictions. For a 'first encounter' with a person we have not really pegged yet, that was, I felt, a good beginning. If he had then continued on to attack those answering him, I would have gone up another level. But he seems to have not returned. So...does that mean he was a con, and disappeared now people are "on to him", or does it mean he truly was hurting and the responses he received here pushed him away? I don't know...and my point is that you cannot know either. It's entirely possible to not fall for a con while being polite...
I reached out to Hopeless through private messaging - all positive stuff - and yet he did not reply.
We have to remember that people like "Hopeless" post this stuff all over the internet
It is not like this forum is the only place he has shown up
And besides , his whole purpose was to find fault with the Christian church
He started with a negative ... I replied with a negative ... and to him it proves he was right about Christians being bad
That is the game he plays
In summary ... what hopeless said was ... "poor poor me" .... and it is all our fault ... !!!!!!!!!
Go read his opening post again
It is not like this forum is the only place he has shown up
And besides , his whole purpose was to find fault with the Christian church
He started with a negative ... I replied with a negative ... and to him it proves he was right about Christians being bad
That is the game he plays
In summary ... what hopeless said was ... "poor poor me" .... and it is all our fault ... !!!!!!!!!
Go read his opening post again
Oh...I don't agree with his post. I have many, many things to say about it. But, as most of it was already commented on by others, I chose to leave it alone. I'm only trying to point out that calling a person out, can, and should, be done with love. For our own sakes, as well as theirs.
But, it seems it may not be an issue anymore, we haven't seem him in a bit, he may be gone.
But, it seems it may not be an issue anymore, we haven't seem him in a bit, he may be gone.
The Word states that salvation is individual and is an inner work and only God knows the heart of man. Yet He unveils some things not all by His Word and His Spirit.
"Acts 2:40 "And with many other words did he testify and exhort , saying , Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
"Acts 2:40 "And with many other words did he testify and exhort , saying , Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
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