Foreigner said,
-- Wall street bankers have Master's degrees, are responsible for the correct handling of millions of dollars of other people's money, and must have vast amounts of financial, legal, and investment information at their fingertips at any one time.
So, they have to be intelligent......and have the means to get a higher education.
-- They do have means. But if they don't finish high school, it is not anyone else's fault that college and additional opportunities aren't available to them. If they graduate high school, there are trade schools, tech schools, business schools, colleges, universities, etc. etc. etc.
Military service offers full tuition, books and a monthy stipend for just four years of service. It also pays back student loans.
I worked almost full time while in college. 35-36 hours a week. Couple of nights a week and often long shifts on both Sat. and Sun.
Worked over summer to save for college, as well.
Paid for the majority of it myself. Didn't earn my first scholarship for academics until my junior year.
States like FL offer guaranteed college acceptance for the top 10% of every high school. This is outstanding in that the the top 10% in inner-city or poor district schools wouldn't make the top 30% in other schools across the state.
And you ignore the fact that "working the fields" is not the only option for someone who does not have a college degree.
My best friend worked at Sears while going to college. Shoes and electronics. Minimum wage. No commission.
Come his 3rd year they offered him a big promotion but it meant he then had little time for college.
He is 37 now, no college degree, but managing a Sears at a low six-figure salary.
Work and willingness to show initiative and take on additional responsibilities goes a long way to success in this country.
The salary for that justifiably trumps the salary for someone who does nothing but picks lettuce and sticks it in a cardboard box several hours a day.
Nothing but......? Have you ever picked crops? I have and I know for a fact, I could not do it every day - it is too hard on my back. I have two Master's degrees - I have been blessed - thankfully, because manual labor is no longer an option for me
-- Honestly, no one has questioned how hard the work is. I am questioning why you think someone who works hard in one field (no pun intended) should make the same as a person who works hard in another field that has much more responsibility and requires additional skills and possibly schooling to perform it.
Or to put it another way, do you really believe that a job that requires a minimum of a Master's degree should not have pay that is "vastly different" from a job that has no other requirements than a strong back and a pair of work gloves?
Ha! I see you are not familiar with the field of social service....
All your comment illustrates is our societies values - money is more important than people.
-- Ha! I see you are not familiar with the world outside the field of social service.....
All your comment illustrates is your desire to engage in class warfare.
There are MILLIONS of examples in the US of people being born dirt poor with what appear to be zero options, no rich parent, no silver spoon in their mouth, who have said that they won't be kept down, and have gone on to be successful and financially secure. Why? Because they sacrificed and instead of whining that adversity isn't fair, they refused to let it stop them and overcame.
Colin Powell was born in Harlem in 1937 to Jamaican immigrants, faced racism even through his time in Viet Nam, yet went on to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and Secretary of State of the United States.
From a dirt poor beginning in a tenement building in Harlem in the middle of the Depression - a black man to boot - to becoming the chief representative of the United States the world over.
He achieved that because he DIDN'T do what you seem to feel is just fine: Sit back, claim the world isn't fair, and wait for someone to realize they need to give you more money because it isn't fair they have found opportunities you haven't.
He did it because he worked hard, sought additional responsibility, and refused let racism and "the world" keep him down.
Or closer to home:
My father is number seven of 12 kids (I am HIS seventh child), grew up speaking German on a farm in S.D. son of a 'Germans from Russia' immigrant. He had to learn English in order to start school in the 4th grade.
Served in WWII, went to college, worked through college because the GI Bill didn't pay housing and food, started in a bank as a bank teller, moved up through loans, and retired a bank President.
He didn't retire with a huge nest egg, though because he had nine children.
That was also why he couldn't do much to assist with college education for us.
-- A doctor graduates from college and medical school, can diagnose and treat a wide variety of illnesses, and preform a wide variety of medical procedures. They are held accountable for their knowledge and can be sued for millions for malpractice.
Do you really feel there should not have pay that is "vastly different" from a person wearing a headset answering car insurance questions in a call center?
I worked as a speech therapist for years - I worked with people with traumatic brain injury; my education was eye-opening, especially when I learned why speech therapists (outside the school system) make so much money. You see, we have a lobby called ASHA; they set the standards for all speech therapists AND they limit the amount of speech therapists that are trained each year - which, of course, drives up demand and artificially increases wages.
-- You make an outstanding argument for the dangers of unions and how they have likely outlived their usefullness.
Yes, I had to have a considerable amount of knowledge to perform my job effectively, but it was hardly back breaking work! My most effective skill was patience and the ability to measure progress on a small scale. For me, after growing up poor, becoming a professional was like winning the lottery.
Our society rewards intelligence, and privilege as if it was earned.
-- Close. Our society rewards intelligence....and hard work combined with initiative.
-- A teacher gets a four-year degree, in many cases even a master's degree, and obtains a license to teach in a specific state. They are responsible for instructing children and ensuring they actually learn what is being taught them. They prepare lesson plans, multi-media presentations, create and grade tests, provide individual tutoring, etc. etc.
Do you really feel they should not have pay that is "vastly different" from a person at McDonald's asking you if you "wish to superize that?"
Interesting that you would compare the two jobs - many teachers, especially teachers in poor districts, make comparable salaries with fast food workers. Effective teachers work 12-14 hour days - no one become a teacher to get rich. I would choose teaching over field work any day - no matter the wage.
-- Ummm...no.
Chicago teachers (who just ended their strike) average - depending on who you talk to - between $71,000 and $76,000 a year.
Among other things they were offered a 16% raise over four years but wanted 30%.
Please show list for me the fast food companies that have workers behind the counter earning in that range.
Many of those schools in Chicago fall into what you call "poor districts."
A chicago teacher with a bachelor's degree and one year experience starts at an average $47,000/year.
This is a very good salary when you consider it is pay for NINE months work and not a full year.
That salary is made even better when you consider that most have their healthcare covered for them so that allows for even more take home pay.
Many teacher's say "but I have to get additional education over the summer." So what?
If you pro-rated your salary you are still getting a check for that time and in many cases the school district picks up the tab for the schooling.
And the additional education means an EVEN HIGHER salary for them later on.
Meanwhile, the rest of us have to either take time off from work or go to night school to get additional education/training.
And I hate to break it to you but LOTS of people have to work 12-14 hour days (but most teachers who have done their job for some time don't work anywhere near that on a daily basis. You are exaggerating).
When I maintained the servers for a tech company I was salaried and worked many 10-12 hour days. I was also on-call and was called in to address issues late at night and on the weekends. Yet I still had to come into work the next morning. Comes...with...the...territory. I had many a 60 hr workweek.
I am number seven of nine children. Four of them are teachers. Two in Seattle. One in Minneapolis. One in Okalhoma City.
And my wife is a Para at a school here in N.D. They have worked between 12 and 26 years as teachers.
None of them face the hardships you talk about.
Long hours sometimes, yes.
Correcting papers at home sometimes, yes.
Additional work when the textbooks are changed, yes.
Preparations for parent-teacher conferences, yes.
But not a one faces regular 12-14 hour days.
To answer your question - I believe all workers in this country should earn at least a living wage. So, if you are a field worker, you should make enough money to raise an average family.
-- So, just to make sure I have this right:
A person who does nothing but cut and box lettuce every day should be given a salary that allows him to pay rent on a multi-room apartment, gas for his vehicle, a possible car payment, clothing for his whole family, and food for himself, his wife, and however many children he has? (this of course leaves out cable, cell phones, etc. right?)
There are SO MANY reasons why that is not a reasonable expectation.
- Even minimizing company profits, the additional expense to companies would drive food costs through the roof for all Americans.
- There would be an "upward ripple" where those who do jobs within the company that require actual skills, training and schooling would then demand (rightfully) an upward adjustment in their salaries. This would bankrupt the company.
- It would reduce the number of people that a company would be willing to employ, thus ensuring that even larger numbers of people will be out of work.
Economics 101.
Those that push this idea have obviously not thought it through without wearing their rose-colored glasses.
Interesting - my cousin just got a job as a senior software manager at Amazon - the job requires a Master's Degree and at least 5 years experience as a manager - he never finished college and he is only 28. By the time he is my age, he will be retired. Our society rewards intelligence.
-- Societies prosper because they reward intelligence. Why is that foreign to you?
Society also rewards hard work and initiative - being willing to seek additional responsibility and live up to it.
Your cousin was given the position because he had EXPERIENCE in an area that required extensive skills beyond picking and boxing lettuce.
Experience is a proven filter as to who can learn, who can show up for work, who can provide what you require.
That is why many college graudates end up taking jobs that do not require a college degree after they graduate.
To pay expenses, but also to show that they can actually get up and get to work on time regularly, work well with others, etc. etc. etc.
Exployers want to know that you can actually DO what will be expected before they hire you and give priority to applicants that can show that.
But you really need to invest in some reality time:
- A seasonal migrant worker (legal or illegal) does not do the work that justifies a salary to support every facet of providing for a family
- A person who made poor choices in life and finds themselves working as a full-time pizza delivery person at age 35 has no justified expectation that his salary will cover rent, clothing, food, car payment, gas money, etc. etc. etc. The work simply doesn't justify the salary.
- A person taking an entry-level position at K-Mart as a stocker does not perform the duties that justify a comfortable living wage. Staying with the company for a couple of years does however lead to that.
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