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GracePeace

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Time stamp 1:14:14 of
I will to keep things cool on my side and not alert Mods to the misbehavior of my interlocutors.

After the discussion on the Church as New Eve I had here with @BreadOfLife @theefaith and @JamestheRabbit I called Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin's Show on the topic... lo and behold he agreed with me that The Church is New Eve.

My question now is what happens when an infallibly declared dogma is comprised of fallible doctrines (the Dogma of Mary’s Immaculate Conception is based in part on Mary as New Eve)? Wouldn’t that be ridiculous—like saying an omnipotent is comprised of weakness?
 
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GracePeace

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Responses to Mr. Akin’s remarks provided in the YouTube comments section are apparently suppressed (looked for them on a friend's device, they did not appear--there aren't many comments, there's no other reason mine wouldn't appear), so I'll share them here :

1:16:09 Apples and oranges : Eve isn't a "symbol" (she was an actual human being who would be a "type"--these are not the same), so Jimmy's answer of citing Revelation's visionary imagery referring to two things (really, it seems like two aspects of the same thing--hills and kings probably refers to the hills from which the Kings rule) could substantiate a "double fulfillment" doesn't work.
With the "type" of the Bronze Serpent, Jesus fulfills it, and it's finished. There is no second fulfillment.
With the "type" of Adam, Jesus fulfills it, and it's finished. There is no second fulfillment.
Where are all the double-fulfillments of "types"?
There is no double-fulfillment of the Eve type--there is no need for it--and Mary as New Eve is extraneous, like a vestigial body part.
[Edit] : Nevermind the fact that Mary wasn't "in Christ" at the time, so : 1) She couldn't qualify as "New Eve" in some lesser way (by reason of having belonged to the "New Eve" of the Church), and 2) No, she was "imperfect" Hebrews 11:40, Hebrews 12:23 unlike Eve.

1:18:13 - 1:19:13 Jimmy already admitted that the Church is a New Eve (eg, when he tried arguing that there was a double-fulfillment of the Eve "type" with both Mary and then the Church), so there's no need to address whether or not the Eve type is fulfilled in the New Testament. Again, we already have New Eve in the Church--Mary as New Eve is extraneous.

1:19:42 Romans 5 says sin and death came through one man (Adam)'s disobedience, so now righteousness and life come through one man (Christ)'s obedience--the problem is solved, and bringing Mary in is extraneous.

All of these already-filled positions you want to come afterward and have Mary to have something to do with could be placed under one category : Vestigial Mary (you've already heard of "Virgin" Mary). LOL Sorry, there's nothing for her to do here.

1:21:13 a) Are you saying infallible dogmas are comprised of fallible doctrine? That would be interesting--like an omnipotent being that is comprised of some weak parts. That would be problematic wouldn't it?
b) The question wasn't about a dogma's mere "history of thought--including the thoughts that were considered, but failed the test, and so were thrown away", it was specifically about the FINAL bases, which were agreed upon as having been true, upon which the infallible dogma was finally based. For instance, Mary as New Eve is one of the bases of the dogma of the Immaculacy of Mary's Conception.
 
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Enoch111

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My question now is what happens when an infallibly declared dogma is comprised of fallible doctrines...
Essentially nothing will happen to change the status quo. What is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) will remain enshrined in Catholic dogma.

Paragraph 6. MARY - MOTHER OF CHRIST, MOTHER OF THE CHURCH
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
 
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GracePeace

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Essentially nothing will happen to change the status quo. What is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) will remain enshrined in Catholic dogma.

Paragraph 6. MARY - MOTHER OF CHRIST, MOTHER OF THE CHURCH
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
Well, like with Mormonism, at least the truth should get out so the rest of humanity which is capable of reason can laugh. Lol
 

theefaith

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Time stamp 1:14:14 of
I will to keep things cool on my side and not alert Mods to the misbehavior of my interlocutors.

After the discussion on the Church as New Eve I had here with @BreadOfLife @theefaith and @JamestheRabbit I called Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin's Show on the topic... lo and behold he agreed with me that The Church is New Eve.

My question now is what happens when an infallibly declared dogma is comprised of fallible doctrines (the Dogma of Mary’s Immaculate Conception is based in part on Mary as New Eve)? Wouldn’t that be ridiculous—like saying an omnipotent is comprised of weakness?

what do modernists know?
Check cardinal Neumann on the subject he’s the authority
 

BreadOfLife

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@BreadOfLife "Let us reason..."
I tried that - but you KEPT on reporting me to the Mods every time you couldn't answer my questions.

I'm willing to debate ANYONE here - as I went to-to-toe with YOU for dozens of posts before you started your little Gestapo--like reporting tactics. However - I'm NOT getting thrown off of this forum for you, so it's best that you simply go off and stalk someone else, lest I publicly humiliate you some more.

You have NOT proven to be a worthy opponent - just a cowardly one.

PS - I FULLY expect to be reported again, so I'm won't be surprised when it happens.
That's your speed . . .
 

theefaith

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what do modernists know?
Check cardinal Neumann on the subject he’s the authority

Mary is the mother of the church Jn 19
The proto-type of the church

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation! Behold, I make all things new!

There can no error taught but the holy church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles Jn 16:13 Jn 8:32
The immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus are in the Bible Lk 1:49
 

GISMYS_7

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YES!!! Mary is the blessed moher of Jesus any other ideas are just little men's ideas. Seek to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
 

GracePeace

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I tried that - but you KEPT on reporting me to the Mods every time you couldn't answer my questions.
I tell you the truth, you are misinterpreting things.
I reported you because I thought that was what I was supposed to do rather than respond in kind--last time I did that I got reported. Now I saw the Mods shut the last discussion down so I've decided not to report you so as to preserve the discussion.

I'm willing to debate ANYONE here
Same here.

as I went to-to-toe with YOU
Yeah, you held pretty tight to your delusions. LOL
You only serve to help me make my arguments stronger and grow them.
That's all you're here for.
Whether you change your mind or not is irrelevant.
You also demonstrate your illegitimacy by refusing to acknowledge the obvious.
You're making my point for me.
Keep it up!

for dozens of posts before you started your little Gestapo--like reporting tactics. However - I'm NOT getting thrown off of this forum for you, so it's best that you simply go off and stalk someone else, lest I publicly humiliate you some more.
Like I said, I won't be reporting anymore for the reasons I stated.
You're only helping me and humiliating yourself. LOL

You have NOT proven to be a worthy opponent - just a cowardly one.
Interesting "take". LOL
 

GracePeace

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YES!!! Mary is the blessed moher of Jesus any other ideas are just little men's ideas. Seek to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
Yeah, Catholicism is basically pagan artifact and empty speculation and assertion built upon some Scripture and pagan "philosophy" (eg, Aristotle, etc).
God wrote the Scriptures with me in mind 1 Corinthians 9:10, 1 Corinthians 10:11--I'll go His way, He knows best, and wrote down those thoughts for me.
 

theefaith

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YES!!! Mary is the blessed moher of Jesus any other ideas are just little men's ideas. Seek to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Is she only blessed because she is the mother of God? Or Of Jesus as you say?

lk 1:28 says she is full of grace, and blessed even before becoming or consenting to be the Mother of God
 

Illuminator

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Essentially nothing will happen to change the status quo. What is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) will remain enshrined in Catholic dogma.

Paragraph 6. MARY - MOTHER OF CHRIST, MOTHER OF THE CHURCH
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
What's wrong with that?
4. The Second Vatican Council prepares us for this by presenting in its teaching the Mother of God in the mystery of Christ and of the Church. If it is true, as the Council itself proclaims,8 that "only in the mystery of the Incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light," then this principle must be applied in a very particular way to that exceptional "daughter of the human race," that extraordinary "woman" who became the Mother of Christ. Only in the mystery of Christ is her mystery fully made clear. Thus has the Church sought to interpret it from the very beginning: the mystery of the Incarnation has enabled her to penetrate and to make ever clearer the mystery of the Mother of the Incarnate Word. The Council of Ephesus (431) was of decisive importance in clarifying this, for during that Council, to the great joy of Christians, the truth of the divine motherhood of Mary was solemnly confirmed as a truth of the Church's faith. Mary is the Mother of God (= Theotókos), since by the power of the Holy Spirit she conceived in her virginal womb and brought into the world Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is of one being with the Father.9 "The Son of God...born of the Virgin Mary...has truly been made one of us,"10 has been made man. Thus, through the mystery of Christ, on the horizon of the Church's faith there shines in its fullness the mystery of his Mother. In turn, the dogma of the divine motherhood of Mary was for the Council of Ephesus and is for the Church like a seal upon the dogma of the Incarnation, in which the Word truly assumes human nature into the unity of his person, without cancelling out that nature.

5. The Second Vatican Council, by presenting Mary in the mystery of Christ, also finds the path to a deeper understanding of the mystery of the Church. Mary, as the Mother of Christ, is in a particular way united with the Church, "which the Lord established as his own body."11 It is significant that the conciliar text places this truth about the Church as the Body of Christ (according to the teaching of the Pauline Letters) in close proximity to the truth that the Son of God "through the power of the Holy Spirit was born of the Virgin Mary." The reality of the Incarnation finds a sort of extension in the mystery of the Church-the Body of Christ. And one cannot think of the reality of the Incarnation without referring to Mary, the Mother of the Incarnate Word.

In these reflections, however, I wish to consider primarily that "pilgrimage of faith" in which "the Blessed Virgin advanced," faithfully preserving her union with Christ.12 In this way the "twofold bond" which unites the Mother of God with Christ and with the Church takes on historical significance. Nor is it just a question of the Virgin Mother's life-story, of her personal journey of faith and "the better part" which is hers in the mystery of salvation; it is also a question of the history of the whole People of God, of all those who take part in the same "pilgrimage of faith."
Redemptoris Mater (25 March 1987) | John Paul II (vatican.va)

The Council expresses this when it states in another passage that Mary "has gone before," becoming "a model of the Church in the matter of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ."13 This "going before" as a figure or model is in reference to the intimate mystery of the Church, as she actuates and accomplishes her own saving mission by uniting in herself-as Mary did-the qualities of mother and virgin. She is a virgin who "keeps whole and pure the fidelity she has pledged to her Spouse" and "becomes herself a mother," for "she brings forth to a new and immortal life children who are conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of God."14
Redemptoris Mater (25 March 1987) | John Paul II (vatican.va)
 

Illuminator

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THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY

When Fundamentalists study the writings of the Reformers on Mary, the Mother of Jesus, they will find that the Reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.​
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24, 107.

Perpetual Virginity: Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."​
Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception.

Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused,
she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."​

Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis], Volume 4, 694.

Assumption: Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."​

Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, p. 268.

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."​
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."​
Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.

John Calvin: It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine .

Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."​
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."​
Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."​
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honor to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."​
John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.

Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11​

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."​
Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."​
E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.

Ulrich Zwingli "Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." Ibid.

Ulrich Zwingli "It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother." Ibid.

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."​
Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.

We might wonder why the Marian affirmations of the Reformers did not survive in the teaching of their heirs - particularly the Fundamentalists. This break with the past did not come through any new discovery or revelation.

The Reformers themselves (see above) took a benign even positive view of Marian doctrine - although they did reject Marian mediation because of their rejection of all human mediation.

Moreover, while there were some excesses in popular Marian piety, Marian doctrine as taught in the pre-Reformation era drew its inspiration from the witness of Scripture and was rooted in Christology. The real reason for the break with the past must be attributed to the iconoclastic passion of the followers of the Reformation and the consequences of some Reformation principles.

Even more influential in the break with Mary was the influence of the Enlightenment Era, which essentially questioned or denied the mysteries of faith.

Unfortunately the Marian teachings and preachings of the Reformers have been "covered up" by their most zealous followers - with damaging theological and practical consequences.

This "cover-up" can be detected even in ‘Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective, an Evangelical critique of Mariology’. One of the contributors admits that "Most remarkable to modern Protestants is the Reformers' almost universal acceptance of Mary's continuing virginity, and their widespread reluctance to declare Mary a sinner".
He then asks if it is "a favorable providence" that kept these Marian teachings of the Reformers from being "transmitted to the Protestant churches"! DUH! HELLO???

David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180

What is interpreted as "Providence" by a Marian critic may legitimately be interpreted as a force of a very different kind by a Christian who has recognized the role of Mary in God’s plan.
 

Illuminator

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The rationale for devotion to Mary, and devotion means honoring her and seeking her intercession, is simple and forceful. Mary's primary role in the divine scheme of salvation revealed in Scripture is to lead all her children to her Son.

The Genesis 3:15 prophecy of the Woman and her seed in battle with the Devil reaches its climax in Revelation 12 where the Woman's seed now includes not just the Son but also all His followers.

The author of Revelation had already laid the groundwork for this startling image with John 19 in which the "beloved disciple" (symbolizing all believers) is given the Woman as his Mother by her Son. In Marian devotion and in Marian appearances throughout history and throughout the world we see this Scriptural portrait come to life with the Mother of all believers leading them to salvation in her Son.

She is not the Savior and she is not the source of salvation but she leads us to the Savior and to salvation. This is the mission assigned to her by God that we see in Scripture. The fundamental theme of Marian devotion is of going "to Jesus through Mary".

The choice we face is not: "Do I surrender to God directly or do I go through Mary to God?" Rather, the choice we face is this: "Do I surrender to God through the instrumentality He has set up, i.e., through Mary, or do I surrender to God through the instrumentality I set up, i.e., without going through Mary?

The choice is: "Do I go to God on His terms or on mine?" The choice is not: "Do I want to follow Jesus or Mary?" but "Do I want to follow Jesus (by going to Him through Mary)?"

It is a hard fact of history that devotion to Mary has been a fundamental part of the historic Faith for 20 centuries. The Sub Tuum prayer dating back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries establishes this to be the case along with numerous other pieces of evidence.

Any criticism of Marian devotion must overcome this "hard fact". Also Marian devotion has always been directly related to the centrality of Christ and has been the surest protector of sound Christology.

Marian devotion stems from the surest sources: the witness of Scripture; the inerrant interpretation of Scripture handed down by Councils, Creeds and the Fathers; the universal and ancient practice among Christians of venerating Mary and seeking her intercession in line with scriptural teaching; the Marian experience of the faithful; and the appearances of Mary throughout history in the most diverse cultures that have resulted in mass conversions and the renewal of Christian life.

It may be argued that Christians were in error on this matter from the beginning but in response we will have to ask: who has the authority or competence to make such an arbitrary interpretation?
Should we trust the interpretations of Augustine or Jimmy Swaggart, the teachings of the Council of Ephesus or the pronouncements of Dave Hunt? Should we be guided by the prayer and worship practices of Christians in the first three centuries who were the closest to the New Testament Church or the prayer-and-worship routines of 40,000+ denominations?

The "world" of Marian devotion is one which has been familiar to almost all Christians, including the holiest and the wisest, for the last 20 centuries. The Fundamentalists and Evangelicals have not entered this world. Neither have Mormons or Buddhists.

Before they criticize or reject a part of Christian experience that has been accepted as basic and normal by most Christians, 20th century Christians should consider understanding or even better entering it.

Three aspects of Marian devotion are vital here.
(i) The basic objective of Marian devotion is growth in sanctification on our path to salvation. From Mary came Jesus Who brought salvation to the world. Through Mary came the first of Jesus' miracles wrought at her request and bringing faith to the disciples.

Now Mary comes to us from Jesus Who gives her to us as our Mother. Her children, we are told by Scripture, are those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Her God-given mission is to help us in keeping the "commandments", in battling the world, the flesh and the devil.

Those who believe, like Luther, that the Christian can "be a sinner, and sin boldly" and "even commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" may decide that we do not need assistance in resisting the world, the flesh and the Devil since our salvation is "assured" regardless of our future choices and actions.

But this is a perilous decision. It ignores the dire warnings of Paul and James and Our Lord's own admonition: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

We have seen that Hebrews 10:26 warns us, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries."

If we take these warnings seriously we will gladly accept the assistance of the maternal love that has been experienced by millions of Christians.

(ii) Secondly, Marian devotion can only be comprehended in relation to the Christian belief in the "communion of saints", an article of faith preserved even in the Apostles' Creed.

According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, "For many centuries believers have affirmed in the Apostles' Creed their faith in ‘the communion of saints.’ ... This affirmation of belief has been interpreted in various ways.

The traditional, and probably the best interpretation refers the phrase to the union of all believers, living or dead, in Christ, stressing their common life in Christ and their sharing of all the blessings of God."1

The communion of saints is clearly a scriptural teaching that is emphasized in the New Testament references to the cloud of unseen witnesses and the mystical Body of Christ ("Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"). Among Protestants, Methodists have shown a lively awareness of the close relation between the communion of saints and a scriptural faith.

According to John De Satge: "The solidarity of which Christians find themselves members is therefore one into whose ongoing life they are caught up so as to be penetrated by it, and ultimately transformed. It is a solidarity which stretches back at least as far as the call of Abraham. ... It is a solidarity ... which implies resurrection of its members, to whom death has become incidental to their ultimate destiny."2

Once we have understood the historic affirmation of the communion of saints, an affirmation that has dropped out of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical theological systems, we are in a better position to understand the role of Mary.

(iii) Finally we must ask ourselves how we would respond if we were given the opportunity to spend a day with Mary. Would we ask her questions about Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Would we ask her how we can grow closer to God and learn to obey Him better?

Would we seek her guidance in fighting the Dragon? Even suspicious Fundamentalists would find it hard not to ask these questions to the Mother of their Savior - the one so favored by God the Father as the Angel Gabriel tells us - if given the opportunity.

Marian devotion springs from the realization through Scripture and universal experience that the Mother of Jesus will be with us every day of our lives guiding us to her Son and away from her adversary. Her Son has given her to us as our Mother (John 19, Revelation 12). Dare we refuse His gift?

She is the mother God has given us. If we say we do not need a mother, then we are presuming to question the wisdom of God's provision for our needs.

The awareness of Mary's intercessory and maternal presence was a secure part of Christian experience from the beginning. Several exegetes have been quoted on this (McHugh, Breck, Miguens).

The clearest line of separation between Fundamentalism and historic Christianity, when it comes to devotion to Mary, is the differing perspectives on the dictum "to Jesus through Mary."

Historic Christianity has never seen Mary in isolation from Jesus and has viewed Marian doctrine and devotion as the safest, surest and swiftest path to a true and lasting commitment to Christ. Fundamentalists claim that they "do not need Mary" to go to Jesus and that they prefer to go directly to Jesus.

This response is a misunderstanding of the traditional teaching. All Christians can and should pray directly to Jesus. But no one actually "goes" to Jesus "alone". We all carry with us some mediating group or individual when we go to Jesus.
 

Illuminator

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In practice the Fundamentalist does not go to Jesus "alone". He is nurtured by his minister, his Bible teacher, his church and other such "support groups" in forming his understanding of Jesus and then "goes" to Jesus on the basis of the training and guidance he gets from these groups, often with the groups or individuals actually praying with him and guiding him.

To go to Jesus through Mary is simply to embrace another "support" or "fellowship" group in our journey - one whose role in this regard has been biblically mandated. True, we cannot see Mary. But we cannot see our guardian angels either - and we are perfectly justified in seeking their help.

To put it another way, a father who helps his son learn to pray, corrects his misconceptions about God, teaches him the Bible, and directs him in leading a Christian life is not "supplanting" Jesus or acting as an obstacle between his son and Jesus. He is helping his son establish a full and lasting commitment to his Savior.

Of course the son could try to "go" to Jesus alone - but how much easier and how much safer it is to have the guidance of someone who is an experienced Christian and who loves him with a father's tenderness. This is all that is involved in going to Jesus through Mary. "Do whatever he tells you" is her constant encouragement.
 

GracePeace

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What's wrong with that?
4. The Second Vatican Council prepares us for this by presenting in its teaching the Mother of God in the mystery of Christ and of the Church. If it is true, as the Council itself proclaims,8 that "only in the mystery of the Incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light," then this principle must be applied in a very particular way to that exceptional "daughter of the human race," that extraordinary "woman" who became the Mother of Christ. Only in the mystery of Christ is her mystery fully made clear. Thus has the Church sought to interpret it from the very beginning: the mystery of the Incarnation has enabled her to penetrate and to make ever clearer the mystery of the Mother of the Incarnate Word. The Council of Ephesus (431) was of decisive importance in clarifying this, for during that Council, to the great joy of Christians, the truth of the divine motherhood of Mary was solemnly confirmed as a truth of the Church's faith. Mary is the Mother of God (= Theotókos), since by the power of the Holy Spirit she conceived in her virginal womb and brought into the world Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is of one being with the Father.9 "The Son of God...born of the Virgin Mary...has truly been made one of us,"10 has been made man. Thus, through the mystery of Christ, on the horizon of the Church's faith there shines in its fullness the mystery of his Mother. In turn, the dogma of the divine motherhood of Mary was for the Council of Ephesus and is for the Church like a seal upon the dogma of the Incarnation, in which the Word truly assumes human nature into the unity of his person, without cancelling out that nature.

5. The Second Vatican Council, by presenting Mary in the mystery of Christ, also finds the path to a deeper understanding of the mystery of the Church. Mary, as the Mother of Christ, is in a particular way united with the Church, "which the Lord established as his own body."11 It is significant that the conciliar text places this truth about the Church as the Body of Christ (according to the teaching of the Pauline Letters) in close proximity to the truth that the Son of God "through the power of the Holy Spirit was born of the Virgin Mary." The reality of the Incarnation finds a sort of extension in the mystery of the Church-the Body of Christ. And one cannot think of the reality of the Incarnation without referring to Mary, the Mother of the Incarnate Word.

In these reflections, however, I wish to consider primarily that "pilgrimage of faith" in which "the Blessed Virgin advanced," faithfully preserving her union with Christ.12 In this way the "twofold bond" which unites the Mother of God with Christ and with the Church takes on historical significance. Nor is it just a question of the Virgin Mother's life-story, of her personal journey of faith and "the better part" which is hers in the mystery of salvation; it is also a question of the history of the whole People of God, of all those who take part in the same "pilgrimage of faith."
Redemptoris Mater (25 March 1987) | John Paul II (vatican.va)

The Council expresses this when it states in another passage that Mary "has gone before," becoming "a model of the Church in the matter of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ."13 This "going before" as a figure or model is in reference to the intimate mystery of the Church, as she actuates and accomplishes her own saving mission by uniting in herself-as Mary did-the qualities of mother and virgin. She is a virgin who "keeps whole and pure the fidelity she has pledged to her Spouse" and "becomes herself a mother," for "she brings forth to a new and immortal life children who are conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of God."14
Redemptoris Mater (25 March 1987) | John Paul II (vatican.va)
Whoa, whoa, whoa...

lol

Don't run with scissors in your hands--might poke your eye out!

That's a lot of cutting and pasting there.

Please give your reply to the OP.
 

Illuminator

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Whoa, whoa, whoa...

lol

Don't run with scissors in your hands--might poke your eye out!

That's a lot of cutting and pasting there.

Please give your reply to the OP.
The thread about "Mary, the New Eve" had to be closed due to excessive bullying on your part. This thread is a continuation of a closed thread so you are just looking for a fight. You try to pit Jimmy Akin (a respected apologist) against BoL (who got temporarily banned and you didn't even get a warning) which proves the bias of certain mods are in your favor. It also proves your reading is highly selective. Your rants also prove you reject biblical pre-figurements and typology, and your red neck theology dismisses or ignores the accepted, unanimous ECF, and when it comes to development of doctrine, you haven't got a clue. Understanding "Mary as the New Eve" and the Immaculate Conception takes time, study, prayer and humility, hence the excessive pasting, and I am just getting started. I won't put you on ignore yet, I'll let you hang yourself with your own rope.
 
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