Invitation to lovingly discuss Christian Universal Salvation, one verse at a time

[Patrick1966]

Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people, not the "potential" savior but THE savior of ALL people.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Is Paul correct. Does Jesus save ALL people?

 

[dev553344]

Well I used to be Mormon and the Mormons believe that even serial killers will be in peace in a lower heaven some day. I tend not to believe it, but I do believe people can repent. And I do believe in repentance in spirit prison.

Why not? We have earthly prisons where people turn their lives around. So why not in spirit prison? Jesus visited them of the flood that were violent perpetrators and preached to them. Why preach to them for no reason if they couldn't be saved?

1 Peter 3:19-21
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New King James Version
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19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Patrick1966]

Why preach to them for no reason if they couldn't be saved?

Exactly.

 

[Patrick1966]

Why not? We have earthly prisons where people turn their lives around. So why not in spirit prison?

Most Christians believe that, once a person dies, their "eternal" fate is sealed. Why do Christians believe that to be the case? Because that's what they were taught. It's not Biblical although some will quote the following and claim that it says that it's too late to repent and be saved. Of course, it doesn't say any such thing.

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

 

[ChristisGod]

No there are those who are not saved because they do not believe the gospel and reject Christ as their Lord and Savior.

You reject Him in this life and He will reject you in the next life- the afterlife.

Jesus is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[dev553344]

Exactly.

I don't believe in universalism. But I do believe in spirit prison repentance. I don't want to go to spirit prison and have to wait for the Lord in there. I hear it's a terrible place. But being saved from spirit prison is better than nothing.

 

[Patrick1966]

I don't believe in universalism.

I don't believe in universalism either. I believe in Christian universalism which is the belief that JESUS will persuade all people who ever lived to follow him.

 

[dev553344]

I don't believe in universalism either. I believe in Christian universalism which is the belief that JESUS will persuade all people who ever lived to follow him.

I know sometimes when people get punished they get angry and resentful at their punishers. Such is the earthly justice system too. Others accept their chastisement and desire correction. I have a hard time believing that some people who get sent to spirit prison won't hate God like Satan does.

 

[dev553344]

One applicable verse that talks about people who hate God:

Matthew 6:24
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24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[St. SteVen]

Mark 9: 42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

If we add verse 49 it puts a whole new spin on the whole passage,
Everyone equals ALL.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Patrick1966]

No there are those who are not saved because they do not believe the gospel and reject Christ as their Lord and Savior.

You reject Him in this life and He will reject you in the next life- the afterlife.

Jesus is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So Jesus tortures people forever in Hell?

 

[ChristisGod]

So Jesus tortures people forever in Hell?

No they go there willingly because they hate God and love themselves . God just gives them what they want and how they lived on earth. Life without God. Ir you don’t live for God in this life , God just provided your wishes in the next life.

 

[ChristisGod]

If we add verse 49 it puts a whole new spin on the whole passage,
Everyone equals ALL.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Words have meaning in the context in which they are used and intended to have. Isolating a verse from its context becomes a pretext for a proof text. It’s called proof texting.

 

[St. SteVen]

No they go there willingly because they hate God and love themselves . God just gives them what they want and how they lived on earth. Life without God. Ir you don’t live for God in this life , God just provided your wishes in the next life.

I'm familiar with this "blame the victim" apologetic.

Seems to be a workaround to get God off the hook for creating hell and sending people there.
The claim that people send themselves to hell. Or the companion apologetic that says that the will
of humankind has more power than God's will to save all. Making the will of humankind sovereign.

I would say that very few people actually hate God. And anyone who makes that claim hasn't met him yet.
This is what the Age of Restoration is all about. A curative encounter with the great physician.
A time of correction and healing. Ultimate redemption. The absolute triumph of grace.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his enemies?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

If we add verse 49 it puts a whole new spin on the whole passage,
Everyone equals ALL.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Words have meaning in the context in which they are used and intended to have. Isolating a verse from its context becomes a pretext for a proof text. It’s called proof texting.

I added it to Mark 9;42-48 from your post #5.
Extending the context.

 

[Patrick1966]

No they go there willingly...

That is a made-up theology and is false doctrine, unless you can back it up with scripture. I recall it saying that people were "thrown" into the LOF.

 

[St. SteVen]

That is a made-up theology and is false doctrine, unless you can back it up with scripture. I recall it saying that people were "thrown" into the LOF.

I haven't been able to find the scripture for people were "thrown" into the LOF.
But I do recall those at a feast in a parable found without wedding garments were thrown out.

Matthew 22:11-13 NIV
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[ChristisGod]

I haven't been able to find the scripture for people were "thrown" into the LOF.
But I do recall those at a feast in a parable found without wedding garments were thrown out.

Matthew 22:11-13 NIV
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

they were all invited and refused to come, thats on them not God.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

I haven't been able to find the scripture for people were "thrown" into the LOF.
But I do recall those at a feast in a parable found without wedding garments were thrown out.

Matthew 22:11-13 NIV
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness,
where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

they were all invited and refused to come, thats on them not God.

LOL
How could they be thrown out if they didn't come?

 

[Rockerduck]

Ezekiel 18:23 - Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?