Invitation to lovingly discuss Christian Universal Salvation, one verse at a time

[Wrangler]

Invitation to lovingly discuss Christian Universal Salvation, one verse at a time ... Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people, not the "potential" savior but THE savior of ALL people.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Hmmm. Inherent risk in your approach is two-fold.

1. Not looking at the verses in context will lead to error. This is because there may be a difference between the way we speak today compared to how the author intended his words, i.e., figurative or literal.
2. Relying on one translation is not the best approach but the worst.

Consider the WE translation.
That is why we work hard and put up with troubles. We trust in the living God who came to save all people. He makes a way for those who believe in him.

In your translation, you must consider the saving of all people is NOT absolute but potential, in direct contradiction to your supposition. The reason is if it were absolute and unconditional, there would be no purpose in the emphasis of your translation, "especially of those who believe." Why is it especially so for the qualified group?

The WE translation beautifully parses the point.

1. Jesus came to save all people. Not the same as IS the savior of all.
2. The path of salvation is made ONLY for the qualified group, those who believe in him.

You will find this WE translation consistent with a broader analysis, reconciled with other verses in Scripture.

Hope this helps.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ezekiel 18:23 - Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Didn't seem to do the righteous any good either. - LOL
(they both died)

 

[St. SteVen]

Consider the WE translation.
That is why we work hard and put up with troubles. We trust in the living God who came to save all people. He makes a way for those who believe in him.

LOL
Your "translation" is actually a paraphrase.
The ending, "He makes a way for those who believe in him."
IS NOT IN THE GREEK !

1 Timothy 4:10 Interlinear: for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

biblehub.com

@Patrick1966

 

[Patrick1966]

Hmmm. Inherent risk in your approach is two-fold.

1. Not looking at the verses in context will lead to error. This is because there may be a difference between the way we speak today compared to how the author intended his words, i.e., figurative or literal.
2. Relying on one translation is not the best approach but the worst.

Consider the WE translation.
That is why we work hard and put up with troubles. We trust in the living God who came to save all people. He makes a way for those who believe in him.

In your translation, you must consider the saving of all people is NOT absolute but potential, in direct contradiction to your supposition. The reason is if it were absolute and unconditional, there would be no purpose in the emphasis of your translation, "especially of those who believe." Why is it especially so for the qualified group?

The WE translation beautifully parses the point.

1. Jesus came to save all people. Not the same as IS the savior of all.
2. The path of salvation is made ONLY for the qualified group, those who believe in him.

You will find this WE translation consistent with a broader analysis, reconciled with other verses in Scripture.

Hope this helps.

Ok so you think Jesus tortures people FOREVER.

 

[Patrick1966]

Satan and his minions have blinded the majority of Christians into believing that Jesus is a sadistic monster.

 

[St. SteVen]

Satan and his minions have blinded the majority of Christians into believing that Jesus is a sadistic monster.

Interesting observation.
What do we get when we unpack that?
The majority of Christians don't believe anything outside of what the church teaches, right?
So, where are Satan and his minions?
I think this is the wheat and tares that will be separated in the Age of Reconciliation.

 

[Patrick1966]

Interesting observation.
What do we get when we unpack that?
The majority of Christians don't believe anything outside of what the church teaches, right?
So, where are Satan and his minions?
I think this is the wheat and tares that will be separated in the Age of Reconciliation.

I liked your comment but I don't know about the wheat and tares part. Our brothers and sisters are saved from damnation through their faith in Christ. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

 

[Patrick1966]

Interesting observation.
What do we get when we unpack that?

God permits Satan to mislead and deceive people, which Satan has done to most. The folks here that are quick to condemn others as being used by Satan are themselves deceived by him. They spread the demonic lie that Jesus is a never-forgiving, vindictive, merciless, sadistic, monster. No amount of scripture can open their eyes. It's useless to share it with them. Only God can open their eyes to truth but the overwhelming majority are cemented to their false theology.

 

[Wrangler]

LOL
Your "translation" is actually a paraphrase.

The term is thought translation.

Literal translations of a highly figurative book is a very ineffective translation on multiple levels. Consider an idiom in our language, ‘a rolling stone gathers no moss.’

Thought translations translate whole sentences and even paragraphs. There is a thought behind the idiom beyond the literal words.

We all know your post was a distraction of a much better translation; it just does not support your preferred doctrine, side stepping why are believers especially so?

 

[St. SteVen]

I liked your comment but I don't know about the wheat and tares part. Our brothers and sisters are saved from damnation through their faith in Christ. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

The common (untrustworthy) understanding is that those who WERE the tares will be removed at the judgment and burned. (in hell)
I believe it is the work of the enemy that will be burned. Wood, hay, and stubble. Anything that isn't God's work.

 

[St. SteVen]

We all know your post was a distraction of a much better translation; it just does not support your preferred doctrine, side stepping why are believers especially so?

The believers are a subset of the all that are being saved.
All will be saved, and especially of those who believe. (those who are least deserving?) - LOL

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Wrangler]

All are saved, and especially of those who believe.

Circular Reasoning. Jettisoning the reason to believe in Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

Circular Reasoning. Jettisoning the reason to believe in Christ.

On the contrary.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
All are saved, and especially of those who believe.

Circular Reasoning. Jettisoning the reason to believe in Christ.

I edited my post to read: All will be saved, and especially of those who believe.
Even though I was correct in saying that all are saved.
This was accomplished through the complete work of the Atonement on our behalf.
Salvation is NOT about us, or anything we do.

 

[Patrick1966]

The common (untrustworthy) understanding is that those who WERE the tares will be removed at the judgment and burned. (in hell)
I believe it is the work of the enemy that will be burned. Wood, hay, and stubble. Anything that isn't God's work.

But wood, hay, and stubble don't wail and gnash their teeth. Wicked, unrepentant people are going to pay a dear price for their horrific acts of evil upon others.

 

[Patrick1966]

Jettisoning the reason to believe in Christ.

What do you believe happens to Buddhists?

 

[Wrangler]

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

Huh? You just said in the previous post that he saves all without any conditions. Which is it?

 

[Wrangler]

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

Salvation is NOT about us, or anything we do.

Both of these cannot be true.

 

[St. SteVen]

Huh? You just said in the previous post that he saves all without any conditions. Which is it?

It applies to this current life, as written, and in the afterlife, by principle.

 

[St. SteVen]

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

Salvation is NOT about us, or anything we do.

Both of these cannot be true.

We need to add the context to the first statement.
And frankly, we cannot SAVE ourselves due to ANYTHING we say.
The power is in the agreement with God is BOTH cases.