Is a woman required to cover her head today?

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Anchorite

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The Gen. 6 account is true; "ancient religions" knew it to be true and thus, over time, variations of the story naturally sprung up. Meanwhile, the "gods and demigods" of history are not based in fables. Folks don't know (or didn't know until I posted it) that there are over 800 mentions of giants, that there is cannibalism, and that there are half-man/half-animal creatures, in the Holy Bible.

Again, lots of naivete in bloom here, as folks simply do not read their Holy Bible with any consistency. Worse, when they do read, they read copyrighted (altered) inventions of men, rather than the pure word, because they listened to said men who claim that their invention is easier to read.

Most just want to argue and deny. Selah.
Naïveté also seems to be in this post.

Ancient religions are to be trusted?

You possess the “pure word”, so you have superior spiritual knowledge?

Yet you also give credence to the myths of antiquity.

You claim that the gods and Demi-gods of history are not based on fables. So the fantastic tales of Zeus, Jove, Osiris, Thor, Vishnu, Indra, and Hercules are based on scientific fact?

Karkinos was a Crab who attacked Heracles and was killed, becoming the constellation of Cancer?

Where does the Bible mention half human half animal creatures?
 
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Bombastic

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I haven't read every post up until I joined in. Has anybody addressed Paul's address in context? To Corinth, and in Corinth, temple prostitutes did not cover their heads and had short hair.
Having said that, for some historical context with respect to the intended audience.
I was in a humorous way conveying the same principle: Is a woman required to cover her head today?
Deuteronomy 12:4 in the context of pagan worship.
And scripture has a common theme, repeated throughout, to Israel. Do not take upon yourselves or be absorbed in the ways of surrounding cultures.
 

doctrox

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You possess the “pure word”, so you have superior spiritual knowledge?
Rather, there is a "pure word" and why wouldn't you also be in possession of it? And any "spiritual knowledge" I may have comes from the Source of All Knowledge. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.

Yet you also give credence to the myths of antiquity.
Rather, you dismiss them out of fear/ignorance. Why? He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. (Pro. 18:3).

So the fantastic tales of Zeus, Jove, Osiris, Thor, Vishnu, Indra, and Hercules are based on scientific fact? Karkinos was a Crab who attacked Heracles and was killed, becoming the constellation of Cancer?
Common Types of Propaganda:

Plain Folks
Attempts to convince the audience that a cause reflects the common, everyday person.

Where does the Bible mention half human half animal creatures?
We would be wise to recap before we move from the milk to the meat.

temple prostitutes did not cover their heads and had short hair.
Just like today, when many "hookers" or butch-types keep their hair short, to deny their femininity and thus their vulnerability. Godliness/spirituality is the last thing on such a wo-man's mind.
 
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Bombastic

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Just like today, when many "hookers" or butch-types keep their hair short, to deny their femininity and thus their vulnerability. Godliness/spirituality is the last thing on such a woman's mind.
Needlessly said, "it" looks unclean. And if anybody thinks it only looks unclean, wait until what is inside defiles you.
It ain't woo(ing) no man.
 

Anchorite

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Rather, there is a "pure word" and why wouldn't you also be in possession of it? And any "spiritual knowledge" I may have comes from the Source of All Knowledge. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.


Rather, you dismiss them out of fear/ignorance. Why? He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. (Pro. 18:3).


Common Types of Propaganda:

Plain Folks
Attempts to convince the audience that a cause reflects the common, everyday person.


We would be wise to recap before we move from the milk to the meat.


Just like today, when many "hookers" or butch-types keep their hair short, to deny their femininity and thus their vulnerability. Godliness/spirituality is the last thing on such a wo-man's mind.
Congratulations.

You have evaded every question I asked.

You praise and trust ancient pagan mythologies.

You make assertions about what’s in the Bible, then run away when questioned about it.

You rush to condemn female hairstyles and presume to know their inner spirituality.

I’m sorry you are so insecure and prejudiced in your philosophy.

You might be better off if you replied in your own words, rather than mixing in the words from Copilot.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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It's NOT "just for hair" - that's the point. The entire passage ends in the spiritual, as it was intended - not in the physical.
No it is not just the hair. It is a physical covering like a hat. That is what the language says.

If it is spiritual you have a real problem with men- for they are to have their heads uncovered. But it says the head of the man is Jesus, so according to your logic men are not to have Jesus as a covering.
Whether "married women went to worship with...physical covering..." or not, is not the point of the passage. 'We and the churches have no such [physical] custom; rather, the reason why I presented you with this [spiritually] important dialogue is because of the angels...'
You added to the Word of God by adding physical in brackets. Sorry but it is their head that needs a physical covering because of the angels. In corinth, there was a very specific reason why some women had shaved heads-= and in all cities where major pagan temples were- temple prostitutes.
Not with anything physical/material.
That is not what Scripture says. then men are to be uncovered- no spiritual covering for men then. And Paul clearly shows mens spiritual covering is Jesus!
Your "most likely" comment is typical, actually a faux pas, back-to-front. The Gen. 6 account is true; "ancient religions" knew it to be true and thus, over time, variations of the story naturally sprung up. Meanwhile, the "gods and demigods" of history are not based in fables. Folks don't know (or didn't know until I posted it) that there are nearly 850 mentions of giants, also, that there is cannibalism, and that there are half-man/half-animal creatures, in the Holy Bible.
So 2000 years of church history did not discover what you did! amazing!!! Exactl;y what was your discovery nobody else in 2000 years could see from SCripture. And please cite the passages of half man/beasts please.

No, the gods and demigods were corruptions of the Genesis 6 account when angels had sex with human women. In the churches I have been amemeber of for over 50 years we knew about giants and cannabalism-even among the people of god.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I am not convinced that angelic spirit beings can procreate with human females.

This bizarre idea is a favorite with occult circles.

The account in Genesis repeatedly emphasizes that it was men, not fallen angels or human-angel hybrids.

If fallen angels were causing all this trouble, why does God only refer to men?

Why doesn’t God say His spirit will not always strive with the sons of God/fallen angels?



Genesis 6

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Your error is that you have a predisposed bias of who the sons of God are. IN the OT the term bene Elohim appears only 4 times. three in job where it is only angels and here where a proper exegesis and correct hermeneutic as well as consistent language requires it to be angels. It also speaksof these in Jude and Enoch.

I was in the occult for many years and never once did I see them refer to Gen.6 as angels. Most Bible belieiving churches I know of accept the exegesis as angles.

But let us look at a few of the more common hypotheses and see why they are wrong.

1. Sons of God (Seth line) Daughters of men (Cain line) A. These would not be godly men if they choose ungodly wives. B. Were there no pretty daughters of God? B. Were they all ugly and they had to go to the ungodly for looks?

Verse 1 speaks of men multiplying while verse 2 speaks of another class- the sons of GOd (bene Elohim.) Nowhere in teh OT will you find men called Bene Elohim.

In verse 4 how could a relation between just men and women produce teh Nephilim? (giants in Englis and Titanus in the LXX which are both poor translations of NAPIUL in Hebrew)

also why would mere men and women producing children produce the gibborim? These were not just muscle men, but men of herculean and Atlas strength?

Why would mere men and women producing create men of fame? This is not like Hollywood or sports or political fame, but place in society of high high honor!

No consistency in exegesis, language, and history shows these were Angles who left their first habitation as spoken of by Jude and had sex with human women. those angels in Jude cannot be the ones that fell with satan, for they are free and roaming around the earth, while the angels in Jude are bound awaiting final judgment.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Whether "married women went to worship with...physical covering..." or not, is not the point of the passage. 'We and the churches have no such [physical] custom; rather, the reason why I presented you with this [spiritually] important dialogue is because of the angels...'
Church history also proves you wrong! It wasn't until the mid 20th Century that women stopped wearing physical coverings on their heads. Even the protestant women went to service with head coverings
 

Anchorite

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In the OT the term bene Elohim appears only 4 times. three in job where it is only angels and here where a proper exegesis and correct hermeneutic as well as consistent language requires it to be angels. It also speaksof these in Jude and Enoch.

I was in the occult for many years and never once did I see them refer to Gen.6 as angels. Most Bible belieiving churches I know of accept the exegesis as angles.
The word angel does not necessarily mean spirit beings. The root meaning is messenger.

1. Sons of God (Seth line) Daughters of men (Cain line) A. These would not be godly men if they choose ungodly wives. B. Were there no pretty daughters of God? B. Were they all ugly and they had to go to the ungodly for looks?

The scriptures do not explain why the sons of God (Seth line) were attracted to daughters of men (Cain line), but this happened frequently. Israel was warned repeatedly to not take unto them wives from the pagan nations, but they often did so.

The "sons of Elohim" were alternatively explained to mean sons of princes, or men of high rank (as in Ps 82:6, bene 'Elyon, sons of the Most High) who degraded themselves by contracting marriages with "the daughters of men," i.e. with women of inferior position.

A second interpretation, perhaps not less ancient, understands by the "sons of Elohim," angels.

This view, however, seemed in later times to be too monstrous to be entertained.

R. Simon ben-Jochai anathematized it. Cyril calls it ἀτοπώτατον. Theodoret (Quaest. in Genesis): declares the maintainers of it to have lost their senses; ἐμβρόντητοι καὶ ἄγαν ἠλίθιοι; Philastrius numbers it among heresies, Chrysostom among blasphemies. Finally, Calvin says of it, "Vetus illud commentum de angelorum concubitu cum mulieribus sua absurditate abulide refellitur, ac mirum est doctos viros tam crassis et prodigiosis deliriis fuisse olim fascinatos."

Notwithstanding all this, however, many modern German commentators very strenuously assert this view. They rest their argument in favor of it mainly on these two particulars; first, that "sons of God" is everywhere else in the Old Testament a name of the angels; and next, that St. Jude seems to lend the sanction of his authority to this interpretation.

With regard to the. first of these reasons, it is not even certain that in all other passages of Scripture where "the sons of God" are mentioned angels are meant. It is not absolutely necessary so to understand the designation either in Ps 29:1 or 89:6, or even in Job 1:2.

In any of these passages it might mean holy men. Job 38:7, and Da 3:25, are the only places in which it certainly means angels.

The argument from St. Jude is of more force; for he does compare the sin of the angels to that of Sodom and Gomorrha (τούτοις in ver. 7 must refer to the angels mentioned in ver. 6), as if it were of a like unnatural kind. That this was the meaning of St. Jude is rendered the more probable when we recollect his quotation from the book of Enoch where the same view is taken.

Further, that the angels had the power of assuming a corporeal form seems clear from many parts of the Old Testament All that can be urged in support of this view has been said by Delitzsch in his Die Genesis ausgelegt, and by Kurtz, Gesch. des AIten Bundes, and his treatise, Die Ehen der Sohne Gottes. It must be confessed that their arguments are not without weight.

The early existence of such an interpretation seems, at any rate, to indicate a starting-point for the heathen mythologies.

The fact, too, that from such an intercourse "the mighty men" were born, points in the same direction.

The Greek "'heroes" were sons of the gods; οὐκ οισθα, says Plato in the Cratylus, ὅτι ἡμίθεοι οἰ ἡρῶες; πάντες δήπου γεγόνασιν ἐρασθέντες ἢ θεὸς θνητῆς ἢ θνητοὶ θεᾶς.

Even Hesiod's account of the birth of the giants, monstrous and fantastic as it is, bears tokens of having originated in the same belief.

In like manner it may be remarked that the stories of incubi and succubi, so commonly believed in the Middle Ages, and which even Heidegger (Hist. Sacr. i, 289) does not discredit, had reference to a commerce between daemons and mortals of the same kind as that narrated in Genesis. Thomas Aquinas (pars i, qu. 51, art. 3) argues that it was possible for angels to have children by mortal women.

This theory, however, must be abandoned as scientifically preposterous.


Verse 1 speaks of men multiplying while verse 2 speaks of another class- the sons of GOd (bene Elohim.) Nowhere in teh OT will you find men called Bene Elohim.

In verse 4 how could a relation between just men and women produce teh Nephilim? (giants in Englis and Titanus in the LXX which are both poor translations of NAPIUL in Hebrew)

also why would mere men and women producing children produce the gibborim? These were not just muscle men, but men of herculean and Atlas strength?

Why would mere men and women producing create men of fame? This is not like Hollywood or sports or political fame, but place in society of high high honor!

No consistency in exegesis, language, and history shows these were Angles who left their first habitation as spoken of by Jude and had sex with human women. those angels in Jude cannot be the ones that fell with satan, for they are free and roaming around the earth, while the angels in Jude are bound awaiting final judgment.
Who were the Nephilim?

It should be observed that they are not spoken of (as has sometimes been assumed) as the offspring of the "sons of the Elohim" and "the daughters of men."

The sacred writer says, "the Nephilim were on the earth in those days," before he goes on to speak of the children of the mixed marriages.

The name, which has been variously explained, only occurs once again in Nu 13:33, where the Nephilim are said to have been one of the Canaanitish tribes.

They are there spoken of as "men of great stature," and hence probably the rendering γίγαντες of the Sept. and "the giants" of our A. V.

But there is nothing in the word itself to justify this “giants with super human strength” interpretation. If it is of Hebrew origin (which, however, may be doubted), it must mean either "fallen," i.e. apostate ones; or those who "fall upon" others, violent men, plunderers, freebooters, etc.

So the nephilim were men of great evil, who fell upon innocent victims, in a ferocious manner.

Some have observed that if the Nephilim of Canaan were descendants of the Nephilim in Ge 6:4, we have here a very strong argument for the non-universality of the Deluge. But it can hardly be inferred from these casual references that the name is intended as that of a race. It is rather used in a general way in both passages for burly fighters.
 
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doctrox

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Congratulations.
You have evaded every question I asked.
You praise and trust ancient pagan mythologies.
You make assertions about what’s in the Bible, then run away when questioned about it.
You rush to condemn female hairstyles and presume to know their inner spirituality.
I’m sorry you are so insecure and prejudiced in your philosophy.
You might be better off if you replied in your own words, rather than mixing in the words from Copilot.
Your manifestation is in full bloom.

Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.

Who/what is "Copilot"?

The scriptures do not explain why the sons of God (Seth line) were attracted to daughters of men (Cain line),
...because they weren't.

"It was in the 5th century AD that the "angel" interpretation of Genesis 6 was increasingly viewed as an embarrassment when attacked by critics. (Furthermore, the worship of angels had begun within the church. Also, celibacy had also become an institution of the church. The "angel" view of Genesis 6 was feared as impacting these views.)

Celsus and Julian the Apostate used the traditional "angel" belief to attack Christianity. Julius Africanus resorted to the Sethite interpretation as a more comfortable ground. Cyril of Alexandria also repudiated the orthodox "angel" position with the "line of Seth" interpretation. Augustine also embraced the Sethite theory and thus it prevailed into the Middle Ages. It is still widely taught today among many churches who find the literal "angel" view a bit disturbing. There are many outstanding Bible teachers who still defend this view."

You added to the Word of God by adding physical in brackets.
Brackets are a literary technique used to add info to a direct quote. If I had NOT used brackets, then yes, I would have "added to the Word of God." Your accusation falls flat.

If it is spiritual you have a real problem with men- for they are to have their heads uncovered.
Q: Why is it customary today for a man to remove his [physical] hat when he shifts indoors?
A: A hat is merely a clothing issue, originally worn for warmth and protection, whether indoors or outdoors - but the custom/tradition carried on.because folks knew about the Gen. 6 episode and how vital spiritual headship was.

The guy would still be covered by Jesus in either case; spiritual headship is not affected either way. It's the flesh that would demand the woman to categorically display a physical head covering. Paul's ultimate point is that a hat (or its corollary, long hair) is not a talisman; any such physical head covering wouldn't deter unclean spirits from approaching a woman. v. 16 - "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." (vis-à-vis the Jewish custom, the Jewish ritual, of water baptism).

In corinth, there was a very specific reason why some women had shaved heads-= and in all cities where major pagan temples were- temple prostitutes.
In Corinth, a woman’s shaved head was rightly an indicator of public disgrace (broken marital vows, committed adultery...) - as per my "butch/prostitute" comment earlier, where prostitutes today intentionally shave their heads (or shorten their hair) to signal an absence of headship and thus their "availability" to any man/customer. Paul argued that a woman praying or prophesying with an uncovered head was "one and the same" as having her head shaved. Because both uncovering the hair and shaving it were associated with shame. It's an analogy using the physical to illustrate the spiritual. Because of the angels, a woman must have a spiritual head covering. To this day, earthly women remain "attractive" to disobedient angels. The passage goes beyond mere cultural modesty standards as per its summation ("For this cause...because of the angels.").

So 2000 years of church history did not discover what you did!
Fact is, they did, and so can you. Perhaps start by asking God about the phrase, "because of the angels." (Helpful hint: A.I. won't be helpful.)

Otherwise, "church history," "customs," "church fathers"...pick your poison. Meanwhile, Paul said he and the churches have no such custom.

I was in the occult for many years and never once did I see them refer to Gen.6 as angels. Most Bible belieiving churches I know of accept the exegesis as angles.
You and I had a similar exchange a year ago, where I stated:
As a former satanist, you, of all people, should be aware of the truth of the matter AND be able to well articulate that truth to others

And please cite the passages of half man/beasts please.
quieththinker first brought this up a page back:
The further implication is that there are half human half demonic beings on the planet.
Let's first deal with the OP.

Notwithstanding all this, however, many modern German commentators very strenuously assert this view. They rest their argument in favor of it mainly on these two particulars; first, that "sons of God" is everywhere else in the Old Testament a name of the angels; and next, that St. Jude seems to lend the sanction of his authority to this interpretation.

With regard to the. first of these reasons, it is not even certain that in all other passages of Scripture where "the sons of God" are mentioned angels are meant.
The term translated "the Sons of God" is, in the Hebrew, B'nai HaElohim, "Sons of Elohim," which is a term consistently used in the Old Testament for angels*, and it is never used of believers in the Old Testament. The designation 'Sons of God' is never applied in the Old Testament to believers, whose sonship is distinctly a New Testament revelation.

*Consider Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 (where they are in existence before the creation of the earth). Jesus also implies the same term in Luke 20:36.

In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, only Adam is called a "son of God." (Luke 3:38). The entire Biblical drama deals with the tragedy that humankind is a fallen race, with Adam's initial immortality forfeited. Christ uniquely gives them that receive him the power to become the sons of God. Being born again of the Spirit of God, as an entirely new creation, at their resurrection they alone will be clothed with a building of God and in every respect equal to the angels.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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This theory, however, must be abandoned as scientifically preposterous.
Secular science itself has many preposterous assumptions. No where does the Bible say that angels, when leaving heaven and taking on human form could not have sex. The only time it is mentioned is when Jesus said in heaven people will be like the angels. This is ambiguous for it can mean either celibate or incapable.

But the SEth/Cain line is even more preposterous, for nowhere does the bible explicitly declare any of the line of Seth to be bene elohim.

Dan. 3:35 is bar elahin (anglicized)different than bene Elohim- for this was a Christophany.

It is preposterous to think than mere men having intercourse with mere women would produce the titans and the men ofherculean type strength.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Brackets are a literary technique used to add info to a direct quote. If I had NOT used brackets, then yes, I would have "added to the Word of God." Your accusation falls flat.
Sorry but you added a word that is not in the inspired text to alter the meaning of the text. It is your rebuttal that falls flat.
Fact is, they did, and so can you. Perhaps start by asking God about the phrase, "because of the angels." (Helpful hint: A.I. won't be helpful.)

Otherwise, "church history," "customs," "church fathers"...pick your poison. Meanwhile, Paul said he and the churches have no such custom.
Correct and that teaching is and still remains that in a worship gatherings, men should have no head covering like a hat and women should have a physical covering on their head. Just as it is written and just as the words Paul used were defined in those days The fact that this "custom" endured for nearly 2 millenia until progressivism poisoned many xhurches is proof that the churchs accepted that there was no other teaching (custom) .

In verse 16 Paul mentions this was the teaching he spread to all teh gentile churches he planted and that the "churches of God" 9the Jewish wing per se) also had no other teaching but continiued the practice founds in the Mosaic Law, and carried to teh NT though for a different reason.
 

Anchorite

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Secular science itself has many preposterous assumptions. No where does the Bible say that angels, when leaving heaven and taking on human form could not have sex. The only time it is mentioned is when Jesus said in heaven people will be like the angels. This is ambiguous for it can mean either celibate or incapable.

But the SEth/Cain line is even more preposterous, for nowhere does the bible explicitly declare any of the line of Seth to be bene elohim.

Dan. 3:35 is bar elahin (anglicized)different than bene Elohim- for this was a Christophany.

It is preposterous to think than mere men having intercourse with mere women would produce the titans and the men ofherculean type strength.
Not preposterous at all that Seth line men having intercourse with daughters of pagan men would produce men of great evil.

The Hebrew word Nephilim (נְפִילִים) translates to "the fallen ones", derived from the root word naphal (to fall). When the Hebrew Bible was translated into ancient Greek (the Septuagint), the word was translated as gigantes, which is the root for the English word "giants".

So the original language version of nephilim refers to men who fell from godliness or who fell upon innocent victims to kill and plunder them.

No need to embrace the occult fantasy of evil angelic beings somehow having sex with human women and producing really big men. This occult fantasy is exploited in satanic movies and is pure nonsense.
 
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doctrox

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Sorry but you added a word that is not in the inspired text to alter the meaning of the text. It is your rebuttal that falls flat.
Nothing was "added," thus there's no "rebuttal" necessary. By grammatical definition, brackets ensure that any words within them are NOT a part of the original quote. Your accusation falls flat. You can read up on the "bracket" usage rules of grammar here.

Correct and that teaching is and still remains that in a worship gatherings, men should have no head covering like a hat and women should have a physical covering on their head. Just as it is written and just as the words Paul used were defined in those days The fact that this "custom" endured for nearly 2 millenia until progressivism poisoned many xhurches is proof that the churchs accepted that there was no other teaching (custom) .
1) Yet Paul said (to any man who would be contentious), neither we nor the churches have such custom (v. 16).
2) You still are unable to answer Paul's summation of the passage ala "because of the angels." Hint: It's why we will judge angels (1 Cor. 6:3).

So the original language version of nephilim refers to men who fell from godliness or who fell upon innocent victims to kill and plunder them.
"Substantial liberties must be taken with the literal text to propose your "men who fell from godliness..." variation of the "Sethite" view. (In data analysis, it is often said that "if you torture the data severely enough it will confess to anything.")

The term translated "the sons of God" is, in the Hebrew, B'nai HaElohim, "sons of Elohim," which is a term consistently used in the Old Testament for angels1, and it is never used of believers in the Old Testament. It was so understood by the ancient rabbinical sources and by the early church fathers. Attempts to apply this term to "godly leadership" is without Scriptural foundation.2

The "Sons of Seth and daughters of Cain" interpretation strains and obscures the intended grammatical antithesis between the sons of God and the daughters of Adam. Attempting to impute any other view to the text flies in the face of the earlier centuries of understanding of the Hebrew text among both rabbinical and early church scholarship. The lexicographical antithesis clearly intends to establish a contrast between the "angels" and the women of the Earth.

If the text was intended to contrast the "sons of Seth and the daughters of Cain," why didn't it say so? Seth was not God, and Cain was not Adam. (Why not the "sons of Cain" and the "daughters of Seth?" There is no basis for restricting the text to either subset of Adam's descendants. Further, there exists no mention of daughters of Elohim.)

And how does the "Sethite" interpretation contribute to the ostensible cause for the Flood, which is the primary thrust of the text? The entire view is contrived on a series of assumptions without Scriptural support.

The Biblical term "Sons of Elohim" (that is, of the Creator Himself), is confined to the direct creation by the divine hand and not to those born to those of their own order.3 In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, only Adam is called a "son of God."4 The entire Biblical drama deals with the tragedy that humankind is a fallen race, with Adam's initial immortality forfeited. Christ uniquely gives them that receive him the power to become the sons of God.5 Being born again of the Spirit of God, as an entirely new creation6, at their resurrection they alone will be clothed with a building of God7 and in every respect equal to the angels8. The very term oiketerion, alluding to the heavenly body with which the believer longs to be clothed, is the precise term used for the heavenly bodies from which the fallen angels had disrobed.9

The attempt to apply the term "Sons of Elohim" in a broader sense has no textual basis and obscures the precision of its denotative usage. This proves to be an assumption which is antagonistic to the uniform Biblical usage of the term.

  1. Cf. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 (where they are in existence before the creation of the earth). Jesus also implies the same term in Luke 20:36.
  2. God simply refers to Israel as "my sons" and "my daughters." Indeed, all of Adam's race are termed God's "offspring" in Acts 17:28 (although Paul is here quoting a Greek poet).
  3. The sons of Elohim are even contrasted with the sons of Adam in Psalm 82:1, 6 and warned that if they go on with the evil identified in verse 2, they would die like Adam (man). When our Lord quoted this verse (John 10:34), he made no mention of what order of beings God addressed in this Psalm but that the Word of God was inviolate whether the beings in question were angels or men.
  4. Luke 3:38.
  5. John 1:11-12.
  6. 2 Corinthians 5:17.
  7. 2 Corinthians 5:1-4.
  8. Luke 20:36.
  9. This term appears only twice in the Bible: 2 Corinthians 5:2 and Jude 1:6."
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Nothing was "added," thus there's no "rebuttal" necessary. By grammatical definition, brackets ensure that any words within them are NOT a part of the original quote. Your accusation falls flat. You can read up on the "bracket" usage rules of grammar here.
But by adding the bracketed word you alterd the meaning of the passage. The Jw's are notorious for that and according to the web cite you linked to, brackets ARE used for adding information not given by the author!
1) Yet Paul said (to any man who would be contentious), neither we nor the churches have such custom (v. 16).
2) You still are unable to answer Paul's summation of the passage ala "because of the angels." Hint: It's why we will judge angels (1 Cor. 6:3).
It doesn't matter about the angels, that is not the context of Pauls discussion, it is one of several reasons He gave why women must have a physical covering on their head in church and why men must nor cover their heads.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head:

In your desire to spiritualize this away, you would have men praying with Christ (as He is the head of man) uncovered by His Father--that is foolish!

So according to your spiritualizing, if a man prays with Christ covered by God- He dishonors Jesus!
"Substantial liberties must be taken with the literal text to propose your "men who fell from godliness..." variation of the "Sethite" view. (In data analysis, it is often said that "if you torture the data severely enough it will confess to anything.")

You do an absolutely excellent job here in showing how people take liberties with the text, but then you do it when speaking of women covering their heads, especially when covering is defined as a physical covering of matrerail.
 

doctrox

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You do an absolutely excellent job here in showing how people take liberties with the text, but then you do it when speaking of women covering their heads, especially when covering is defined as a physical covering of matrerail.
Yes, there is both a material and a spiritual component to the passage, else the audience would be unlikely to comprehend the gist of the message.

The head covering message is all about the application of proper authority, in terms of proper spiritual alignment, such that we all remain protected. Specifically, in this instance, we're talking about the woman.

So there's your spiritual alignment: God -> Jesus -> man -> woman -- not for the purpose of dominance (or warmth in drafty rooms), but spiritual protection.

Most of this thread is based in ignorance; the usual chitchat about modesty, doctrines and traditions. After 2½ years of inactivity, this thread was recently bumped by me because the hour is late; indicators of the return of the fallen ones are popping up all over the place.

The spirits of the Nephilim and the giants didn't die...
A physical barrier (e.g. hat or long hair) is no protection from anything spiritual.

But by adding the bracketed word you alterd the meaning of the passage. The Jw's are notorious for that and according to the web cite you linked to, brackets ARE used for adding information not given by the author!
If you had read the site thoroughly, you would understand that the application of brackets is the prima facie literary indicator that such is NOT a part of the original quote - regardless of what is inserted between those brackets. So, again, your accusation of the brethren falls flat.

It doesn't matter about the angels, that is not the context of Pauls discussion,
Rather, such is precisely the reason as per the summation Paul gives as he concludes in verse 16 i.e. avoid the customs, as the necessity of a head covering is "because of the angels" - which verse, of course, you have consistently avoided. A physical hat or long hair is zero protection against anything spiritual. It's an overall lack of discernment that has you chasing some physical head covering requirement.

Once you understand what is going on with the Nephilim and the fallen angels, and what occurred with humanity here on earth, during the flood and after the flood, you will understand why we get to judge angels - bad angels, the fallen angels, those who left their first estate (Jude 6) who came down and messed with humanity and continue to mess with humanity. And you might also understand why Paul warned about being contentious (as you are being) over a custom/tradition that neither he nor the churches of God have.

It doesn't matter about the angels
Rather, Paul's point is: It's all about the angels - not about being contentious over some physical cover. Paul expands on the spiritual lesson by alluding to the physical: "Doth not even nature itself teach you...? But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." (vv. 14, 16).

Q: Is baptism required today?
A: Not with anything physical/material (e.g. water).

From the OP:

Is a woman required to cover her head today?​

Not with anything physical/material (e.g. hat, hair).

Paul ends the "head covering" lesson with: "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." (1 Cor. 11:16).

And there is only one other verse in the Holy Bible where the word for custom/habit (synētheia) is found, and it refers, of course, to another Jewish custom:

Pilate said: "But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?" (John 18:39).

BTW, a habit is the distinctive, traditional clothing worn by members of religious orders. The very word synētheia passed into Latin as synthesis, which was used in various material senses (such as a suit of clothes or a set of dishes) and philosophical contexts - the very thing Paul states neither he nor the churches of God follow.

When one is being contentious over the custom/habit of head coverings, one is aiding and abetting the wicked synthesis between worldly customs and spiritual authority. Look no further than to the iconographic RCC for obvious examples.
 
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quietthinker

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Is a woman required to cover her head today?​

I'd say, under minus twenty it's a good idea.....and for the fellas with no hair, double caps are in order!
 

Ronald Nolette

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If you had read the site thoroughly, you would understand that the application of brackets is the prima facie literary indicator that such is NOT a part of the original quote - regardless of what is inserted between those brackets. So, again, your accusation of the brethren falls flat.
Sorry, but you inserted it to add information not present in the originals. And your bracketed word changes the meaning of the original.
Once you understand what is going on with the Nephilim and the fallen angels, and what occurred with humanity here on earth, during the flood and after the flood, you will understand why we get to judge angels - bad angels, the fallen angels, those who left their first estate (Jude 6) who came down and messed with humanity and continue to mess with humanity. And you might also understand why Paul warned about being contentious (as you are being) over a custom/tradition that neither he nor the churches of God have.
Well teh Jewish church had that teaching, so didn't the churches Paul planted have that same teaching of women having physical head coverings. Paul also went into great detail about the goings on of the demons on this world. Believe me, I am very knowledgeable of what demons do, before I was saved iwas deeply involved in Satanism and the works of men like Eric von Danneken. Before I was saved, the Satanic bible was m y bible.
Rather, Paul's point is: It's all about the angels - not about being contentious over some physical cover. Paul expands on the spiritual lesson by alluding to the physical: "Doth not even nature itself teach you...? But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." (vv. 14, 16).

Q: Is baptism required today?
A: Not with anything physical/material (e.g. water).
So men are not to have a head covering according to you!I guess according to your thinking Paul had no regard for believing men.

And water baptism, is not required for salvation, but for obedience and discipleship.

And Paul said of contention- the exact opposite of what you say:

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


You say the covering is spiritual authority. But then Paul explicitly says a man should not have spiritual authority and pray uncovered. Really????

And your contention that angels means the Nephilim and demons is without any merit whatsoever. Paul never referred to the demons as angels. You have to spiritualize the Scriptures to get to that ocnclusion.
 

Bombastic

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Your manifestation is in full bloom.

Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.


Who/what is "Copilot"?


...because they weren't.

"It was in the 5th century AD that the "angel" interpretation of Genesis 6 was increasingly viewed as an embarrassment when attacked by critics. (Furthermore, the worship of angels had begun within the church. Also, celibacy had also become an institution of the church. The "angel" view of Genesis 6 was feared as impacting these views.)

Celsus and Julian the Apostate used the traditional "angel" belief to attack Christianity. Julius Africanus resorted to the Sethite interpretation as a more comfortable ground. Cyril of Alexandria also repudiated the orthodox "angel" position with the "line of Seth" interpretation. Augustine also embraced the Sethite theory and thus it prevailed into the Middle Ages. It is still widely taught today among many churches who find the literal "angel" view a bit disturbing. There are many outstanding Bible teachers who still defend this view."


Brackets are a literary technique used to add info to a direct quote. If I had NOT used brackets, then yes, I would have "added to the Word of God." Your accusation falls flat.


Q: Why is it customary today for a man to remove his [physical] hat when he shifts indoors?
A: A hat is merely a clothing issue, originally worn for warmth and protection, whether indoors or outdoors - but the custom/tradition carried on.because folks knew about the Gen. 6 episode and how vital spiritual headship was.

The guy would still be covered by Jesus in either case; spiritual headship is not affected either way. It's the flesh that would demand the woman to categorically display a physical head covering. Paul's ultimate point is that a hat (or its corollary, long hair) is not a talisman; any such physical head covering wouldn't deter unclean spirits from approaching a woman. v. 16 - "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." (vis-à-vis the Jewish custom, the Jewish ritual, of water baptism).


In Corinth, a woman’s shaved head was rightly an indicator of public disgrace (broken marital vows, committed adultery...) - as per my "butch/prostitute" comment earlier, where prostitutes today intentionally shave their heads (or shorten their hair) to signal an absence of headship and thus their "availability" to any man/customer. Paul argued that a woman praying or prophesying with an uncovered head was "one and the same" as having her head shaved. Because both uncovering the hair and shaving it were associated with shame. It's an analogy using the physical to illustrate the spiritual. Because of the angels, a woman must have a spiritual head covering. To this day, earthly women remain "attractive" to disobedient angels. The passage goes beyond mere cultural modesty standards as per its summation ("For this cause...because of the angels.").


Fact is, they did, and so can you. Perhaps start by asking God about the phrase, "because of the angels." (Helpful hint: A.I. won't be helpful.)

Otherwise, "church history," "customs," "church fathers"...pick your poison. Meanwhile, Paul said he and the churches have no such custom.


You and I had a similar exchange a year ago, where I stated:



quieththinker first brought this up a page back:

Let's first deal with the OP.


The term translated "the Sons of God" is, in the Hebrew, B'nai HaElohim, "Sons of Elohim," which is a term consistently used in the Old Testament for angels*, and it is never used of believers in the Old Testament. The designation 'Sons of God' is never applied in the Old Testament to believers, whose sonship is distinctly a New Testament revelation.

*Consider Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 (where they are in existence before the creation of the earth). Jesus also implies the same term in Luke 20:36.

In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, only Adam is called a "son of God." (Luke 3:38). The entire Biblical drama deals with the tragedy that humankind is a fallen race, with Adam's initial immortality forfeited. Christ uniquely gives them that receive him the power to become the sons of God. Being born again of the Spirit of God, as an entirely new creation, at their resurrection they alone will be clothed with a building of God and in every respect equal to the angels.
I stopped asking whether anybody is a believer. Last time I asked this question was at a dinner where I was introduced to a future son-in-law. I asked, Do you believe in G-d? He said, "Yes, I believe G-d exists." I responded, What does that mean? Satan believes G-d exists."
I was reminded of that old conversation when reading various suggestions about the identity of the sons of G-d.
 
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doctrox

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Sorry, but you inserted it to add information not present in the originals.
"Notice how the text in brackets was not part of the original quote but provided context to help the reader understand what was being discussed." - source

"What are brackets?​

Brackets, [ ], show that text has been added to a quotation. They’re generally used by writers and editors to separate the original wording from any additions." - source

Your false accusation again falls flat.

And your bracketed word changes the meaning of the original.
English Grammar 101 says otherwise. Your ignorance of the use of bracket punctuation is no excuse.

Well teh Jewish church had that teaching, so didn't the churches Paul planted have that same teaching of women having physical head coverings.
It wouldn't matter if he did. The point is that Paul is using the physical to explain a spiritual reality. Simply read Paul's summation of the lesson: a woman should have power (authority) on her head because of the angels. Very simple.

Paul also went into great detail about the goings on of the demons on this world. Believe me, I am very knowledgeable of what demons do, before I was saved iwas deeply involved in Satanism and the works of men like Eric von Danneken. Before I was saved, the Satanic bible was m y bible.
That is a non sequitur.

So men are not to have a head covering according to you!I guess according to your thinking Paul had no regard for believing men.
That's not the gist of the passage. Also, because you do not discern, you falsely accuse yet again; I never said that "men are not to have a head covering." (neither did Paul)

You say the covering is spiritual authority. But then Paul explicitly says a man should not have spiritual authority and pray uncovered. Really????
Q: Who is being directed to pray directly to God in that instance? Hint: It isn't the woman...

The whole passage ends with the point: A woman requires spiritual power on her head - not a garment!

And your contention that angels means the Nephilim and demons is without any merit whatsoever. Paul never referred to the demons as angels. You have to spiritualize the Scriptures to get to that ocnclusion.
I've posted much scripture; you've posted opinion.
 
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