Is BAPTISM MANDATORY for SALVATION...

[Seasoned by Grace]

Greek, yes, NT in Greek, inspired in Greek, I'm glad we're on the same page with that.

As much as I've studied in both the English translations, and the various Greek manuscripts, I've become more and more convinced that being reborn is a forever thing. That is why I'm interested in where you see this idea of the born again dying again in the Bible.

I'm hoping you will give a simple and straightforward reply. Pages of convoluted reasonings tend to lose me!

Much love!

Marks my friend and brother in Christ.
I will get back to you this evening, and keep things a simple as I can.
I don't think I'll need any Greek, as your question is pretty straight forward I think - LOL

In your question, when you speak of dying, are you talking about what I said about our being BAPTIZED INTO CHRISTS DEATH?

Maybe you could make your question a little more detailed and precise.
I'll try to answer your other questions also. It'll just takes a little time.

Thank you my brother
My name is OLIGOS

 

[marks]

Like I said - LOT"S OF OPINIONS.

So glad I'm grounded in m


Marks my friend and brother in Christ.
One of the major discrepencies I have seen in the Christian faith for many decade is the idea of Christians seeing many things as one way or the other in the bible, but Christians have a hard time seeing things as being all inclusive.
Instead of choosing everything that makes faith, they choose one thing and reject everything else.

God says the 2 greatest commands are to love the lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength.
And the 2nd is like the first to love your neighbor as yourself.

We're also told we are known by the love we have for one another as Christians.

We're also told to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
Also the 10 commandments tell us how to live to treat man, and also how to please God.

Everything I have listed here is all inclusive .
The 2 greatest commands don't replace the 10 commandments. Nothing here replaces anything.
We're not supposed to be selective about which verses to obey as if it is some king of smorgasbord, we're supposed to obey them all. I do!!
That makes my faith complete instead of selective or opposed to scripture.
After all God's New Testament word is perfect, so we have to figure out how to find "HARMONY in Gods word instead of dividing it up and setting words and phrases against each other to try and make sense of something we haven't taken the proper time to understand properly because we're in to big of a hurry, or we've decided what it is we want to believe and then reject the rest of what the bible says about that topic.

God bless you my brother and I know you'll have more questions, so feel free to ask away.

What I posted as a thread and my answer here to you is "SHALLOW compared to the "COMPLETENESS of my faith.

It took me 42 years to get to the depth I'm at and only by the "INTENSE" leading of the Holy Spirit, and His Gracious patience, as I was overwhelmed more times than I can count or remember.

10's of thousands of hours of study to set me on a path that built a faith I find great Joy and assurance in at the feet of my SAVIOR.

This was a journey God chose for me and took me on, nothing I chose for myself.

Many biblical things revealed by God that I would never have found for myself, as my eyes had to be opened to see what God showed me in scripture.

What is wonderful is, no matter what anything anyone thinks of what I've posted, I am at peace with my creator and everything works for me.
I don't have to believe like anyone else does as some try to accomplish here, and no one has to believe what I post.

This is posted to be considered as an option, not a demand.

My name is OLIGOS

Actually, I guess I don't have any questions. I heartily disagree with you, as one who likewise studies, and likewise has received from God. If you have a relationship with God where you are keeping the Law and the Prophets, and trusting and loving,well, if you are trusting and loving, then I have no issue with you, and your keeping all of His commandments. Though I would wonder whether you truly are. But that's not for to say, that's for God.

All I can tell you is blessings in the Name of the Lord.

I hope others aren't drawn into a condemnation in that most Christians seem to realize that we will have at least even occassional sins, and possibly have struggles with things that they have not been delivered from yet. When one man claims that we need to be keeping the Law to be saved, I see that this can create problems with people's faith as they they start looking to themselves, and their perfomance, and measure themselves against the Law.

Much love!

 

[marks]

One of the major discrepencies I have seen in the Christian faith for many decade is the idea of Christians seeing many things as one way or the other in the bible, but Christians have a hard time seeing things as being all inclusive.
Instead of choosing everything that makes faith, they choose one thing and reject everything else.

That would be one way to put it.

What seems to me to be a major obstacle to the fully authentic Christian life is the lack of a simple faith in the finished work of Christ.

All the struggling and angst towards "being right" inside, having a completely pure conscience, to have no fear or doubt, to have control over one's thoughts and feelings and actions, all of this is either a monumental struggle that goes on moment by moment, day by day, year by year, or is a turning in the heart towards God in the certainty that He is here to make this happen in me. And in this turning in the heart towards God is the simple faith that floods us with His life.

And there is no struggle, only joy, only peace, and liberty. The liberty of trust and love. The commandments become informative towards sharpening my senses to know when I'm not walking that way. The only 'stuggle' is in realizing when I've left that simple faith in trying because I'm now going to try to be good. In trusting Jesus, we don't try, to live is to do the good God wants.

But I don't believe it's a matter of going back and keeping the commandments, that's turning towards what I can do to help myself. It's a matter of returning to trust, and in that moment, we return to life. And in that life, there is no concern over this or that commandment, all of that is swallowed up in love.

You'll never do right to God or man without love. And without love, keeping commandments are meaningless. In loving, we will keep all the commandments in the way God means for us to, and so much more! So we are to trust, and to love. That's how I see it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In your question, when you speak of dying, are you talking about what I said about our being BAPTIZED INTO CHRISTS DEATH?

My understanding is the the born again are forever God's children, and that work of rebirth does not become undone. The "dying again" I meant was the new creation Christian. I see nothing in the Bible that teaches that God's spirit children will ever die, and it seems very clear to me that the opposite is true, that being born again is forever.

I'm interested in where you see the Bible teaching that those born of God, being joined to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, that these may then spiritually die.

Much love!

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

My understanding is the the born again are forever God's children, and that work of rebirth does not become undone. The "dying again" I meant was the new creation Christian. I see nothing in the Bible that teaches that God's spirit children will ever die, and it seems very clear to me that the opposite is true, that being born again is forever.

I'm interested in where you see the Bible teaching that those born of God, being joined to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, that these may die.

Much love!

My friend would you kindly copy and paste the exact statement of mine you are referencing, so I can give you an exact answer?

And by the way, I do my best to obey ( Is keeping the law the same as obeying the law??) all 10 commandments, but sorely come up short daily, but in my heart my goal is to obey them even when I fail, and know that God knows my heart and will forgive me when I ask, but more than that will forget the sins He has forgivne me - PRAISE GOD.

My name is OLIGOS

Ps - It would help a lot if I knew how you believe we should become a believer.
I think I'd know more how to respond to you >without any criticisim.<

 

[marks]

My friend would you kindly copy and paste the exact statement of mine you are referencing, so I can give you an exact answer?

And by the way, I do my best to obey ( Is keeping the law the same as obeying the law??) all 10 commandments, but sorely come up short daily, but in my heart my goal is to obey them even when I fail, and know that God knows my heart and will forgive me when I ask, but more than that will forget the sins He has forgivne me - PRAISE GOD.

My name is OLIGOS

Ps - It would help a lot if I knew how you believe we should become a believer.
I think I'd know more how to respond to you >without any criticisim.<

Receiving Jesus, believing in His Name, we receive the right to be born again, and we are born from God. When I say, "salvation", I'm referring to the result of this process. We have passed from death into life.

If our new life is dependant on our keeping the Sabbath, and obeying the 10 commandments, to me, this requires that which was born of God to die if we fail to keep the commandments. The born again die again, spiritual death is replaced by spiritual life, but then that life returns to death for failure to keep the 10 commandments.

I don't see anything in the Bible that tells me that this happens. What I do see is that if we are children of God, we are His children forever.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Salvation is also conditional on obeying the 10 Commandments

all 10 commandments, but sorely come up short daily, but in my heart my goal is to obey them even when I fail, and know that God knows my heart and will forgive me when I ask, but more than that will forget the sins He has forgiven me

I don't see how you reconcile these . . .

If salvation is conditional on obeying the 10 commandments, and you have failed to keep them, well, I don't think you are saying you've lost your salvation, right? I don't understand how salvation that is conditional upon keeping the 10 commandments is held by one who breaks those commandments.

Much love!

 

[Enow]

....but SALVATION IS ALSO CONDITIONAL. (Paul speaks of salvation.).

To me "Believing" is not a point of salvation, but is a beginning point where we are lead to a conditional state of being saved, where the process of salvation begins, when at our time of baptism before we are baptized, we confess our faith in Christ by proclaiming "WE BELIVE in Christ as our Savior, and we repent of our sins and ask God for forgiveness of our past sinful life, Acts 2:38 and once we are "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST" Romans 6:3, and are forgiven of our sins Acts 2:38, and receive the "GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT Acts 2;38.

If salvation is conditional then how can anyone say that Jesus Christ is our Savior for sure? Shouldn't we be saying, Jesus Christ might be my Savior? And yet all through out the N.T., the scripture testify that Jesus Christ IS the Good News to man because Jesus Christ IS the Savior, therefore we are saved simply by believing in Him.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

When studied out in the original Greek language , the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT is conditional, as told to us in 2nd Corinthians 1:21-22,'Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, is God:
22)Who has "SEALED (arrabon or sphragizo) us (A temporary or conditional mark of ownership that we can give up in rebellion) and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a "PLEDGE" or"EARNEST" (arrabon or sphragizo Down payment ,temporary guarantee, deposit earnest agreement as in buying a house, that we must fulfill).

You should question your translation of those passages when you add the 2 verses before verses 21-22, because that makes what was said in verse 19-20 as if the promises of God in Christ Jesus was yes and no.

2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Looking at the Greek word of Hebrew origin for "earnest" in verse 21, we find that pledge as more than just a down payment.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

arrhabon ~~

"of Hebrew origin (`arabown 6162); a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest."

That means God will finish His work in us to His glory; That is His pledge and His word will not return void.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Same as 2nd Cor, 5:5 says, "Now he who prepared us for the very purpose of eternal life(See verse 4) is God, who Gave to us the SPIRIT as a PLEDGE.
Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God who you were sealed by (sphragizo or arrabon) unto the day of redemption.

UNTO that day of redemption. That is His pledge, brother for which you had been sealed by and will not go away. That is why we are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit in us by sowing to the works of the flesh rather than towards the fruits of the Spirit by placing confidence in Jesus to finish it.

Think of salvation given where Jesus has laid that foundation which can never be removed along with that seal of adoption. What we build on that foundation will be judged, but the foundation remains along with that seal because even if the believer incurs a physical death for defiling the temple of God, his spirit is still saved, see?

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

There are 2 kinds of resurrection inheritance for the believers in the kingdom of God; the firstfruits of the resurrection will be the vessels unto honor in His House as they will be received by the Bridegroom. Those that did not look to Him for help in discerning good and evil to depart from iniquity and even by not looking to Him for help in laying aside every weight & sin, they will be found as not abiding in Him for why they are left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation.

Why are the vessels unto dishonor in His House? To testify to the power of God in salvation for all those who believe even in His name as saved.

But having been reconciled to God thru Jesus Christ, we are called to be His disciples by living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ by trusting Him and all His promises to us in helping us to follow Him for He is also our Good Shepherd as well as our Savior.

So as 2nd Cor. 5:17 says, "if any man IS IN CHRIST (You have to be in CHRIST) he is a new creation. "

How do you get into Christ??
Back to Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that all who have been "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"...have been BAPTIZED into His death.


You can receive an earnest or down payment on eternal life. - BAPTISM.

Where else in the bible do you get all this in one act of obeying God about our starting place and foundation for being saved and salvation????

One can apply those verses to the baptism of the Holy Ghost given by Jesus as promised by the Father at our salvation; thus deferring from water baptism all together; hence the earnest of our salvation.

Salvation is not conditional if those who break the least of His commandments and teaches others so are called least in the kingdom of heaven, hence the vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Salvation is also conditional on observing the Sabbath
Salvation is also conditional on obeying the 10 Commandments
Another day!!

Jesus explains why His disciples were guiltless by the accusing Pharisees for picking corn on the sabbath day to eat in Matthew 12:1-7 whereby He cited 2 examples in the O.T. for how the saints profaned the sabbath but were guiltless because they were in the Temple. And then He said One greater than the Temple was here, mainly Himself for why His disciples were guiltless.

Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit now ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ) and Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) and will never leave us ( Matthew 28:20 and that is why believers are guiltless today for profaning the sabbath.

As for the rest of the 10 commandments, Jesus's standard is higher than the works of the law which man has failed and now it is God's turn. Ta dah.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:.... 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So salvation is not conditional when that foundation that has been laid by Jesus Christ is not going anywhere and His seal of adoption isn't either. How we live that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ or not, will be how we shall be judged.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Marks my brother.
I have come across a new idea from God's word that will require me to qualify some of my statements possibly.
In 1st Corinthians 13:13, scripture says, "But now abide faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.

I posted a thread a few days ago titles "Is Love Greater than faith", and have gotten a few interesting responses.

In all my 42 years of studying LOVE, love always seems to rain supreme when compared to anything including faith here.

This seems to put the "CHERRY" on top for me, at least right now, to possibly understand how we could possibly be loved by God and called into His kingdom with different perspectives on how to come to Christ, if it's a heartfelt commitment to Christ, not legalistic ideas or from rule keeping, but that a persons calling from God, may still be his salvation?

What I'm saying is, is it possible that no matter how we differ in our coming to Christ, is it possible, because of Gods huge emphasis on love throughout the bible, that you and I could differ in how we came to Christ, but because we choose to love each other, we can both still be saved because we love each other and don't let our varying perspectives destroy our fellowship.

Is it possible that our salvation could be based partly on how we love more than what we have come to believe and know.

Is love more important than knowledge??

I had a friend years ago who was a Morman in name because his parents raised him that way, but his heart for Christ and his fellow man was like none I have ever known.

Romans 14:22
"The faith that we have, have as your conviction before God,
happy is he who doesn't condemn himself in what he approves."

"Love covers a multitude of sins."

I have a wonderful Christian friend that I met on another forum and he lives in ENGLAND and base our faith and conversions on different beliefs, but have chosen to love each other because there are few who want to love, and though our views are clearly different, we also have some commonness that we love about each other, so we have decided to love each other and be grateful for each other and pray for each other in love. I pray for his wife and family too.

We have felt so lonely at the forums we have been at because of the constant attacks, and have found a wonderful solace in the Christ that bonds us together

My name is OLIGOS

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

If salvation is conditional then how can anyone say that Jesus Christ is our Savior for sure? Shouldn't we be saying, Jesus Christ might be my Savior? And yet all through out the N.T., the scripture testify that Jesus Christ IS the Good News to man because Jesus Christ IS the Savior, therefore we are saved simply by believing in Him.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



You should question your translation of those passages when you add the 2 verses before verses 21-22, because that makes what was said in verse 19-20 as if the promises of God in Christ Jesus was yes and no.

2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Looking at the Greek word of Hebrew origin for "earnest" in verse 21, we find that pledge as more than just a down payment.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

arrhabon ~~

"of Hebrew origin (`arabown 6162); a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest."

That means God will finish His work in us to His glory; That is His pledge and His word will not return void.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.



UNTO that day of redemption. That is His pledge, brother for which you had been sealed by and will not go away. That is why we are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit in us by sowing to the works of the flesh rather than towards the fruits of the Spirit by placing confidence in Jesus to finish it.

Think of salvation given where Jesus has laid that foundation which can never be removed along with that seal of adoption. What we build on that foundation will be judged, but the foundation remains along with that seal because even if the believer incurs a physical death for defiling the temple of God, his spirit is still saved, see?

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

There are 2 kinds of resurrection inheritance for the believers in the kingdom of God; the firstfruits of the resurrection will be the vessels unto honor in His House as they will be received by the Bridegroom. Those that did not look to Him for help in discerning good and evil to depart from iniquity and even by not looking to Him for help in laying aside every weight & sin, they will be found as not abiding in Him for why they are left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation.

Why are the vessels unto dishonor in His House? To testify to the power of God in salvation for all those who believe even in His name as saved.

But having been reconciled to God thru Jesus Christ, we are called to be His disciples by living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ by trusting Him and all His promises to us in helping us to follow Him for He is also our Good Shepherd as well as our Savior.



One can apply those verses to the baptism of the Holy Ghost given by Jesus as promised by the Father at our salvation; thus deferring from water baptism all together; hence the earnest of our salvation.

Salvation is not conditional if those who break the least of His commandments and teaches others so are called least in the kingdom of heaven, hence the vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Jesus explains why His disciples were guiltless by the accusing Pharisees for picking corn on the sabbath day to eat in Matthew 12:1-7 whereby He cited 2 examples in the O.T. for how the saints profaned the sabbath but were guiltless because they were in the Temple. And then He said One greater than the Temple was here, mainly Himself for why His disciples were guiltless.

Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit now ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ) and Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) and will never leave us ( Matthew 28:20 and that is why believers are guiltless today for profaning the sabbath.

As for the rest of the 10 commandments, Jesus's standard is higher than the works of the law which man has failed and now it is God's turn. Ta dah.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:.... 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So salvation is not conditional when that foundation that has been laid by Jesus Christ is not going anywhere and His seal of adoption isn't either. How we live that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ or not, will be how we shall be judged.

I'm grateful that your response was kind and not an attack. Very much appreciated.

My name is OLIGOS

 

[Getitright]

....but SALVATION IS ALSO CONDITIONAL. (Paul speaks of salvation.).

Now you have to understand that this has always been a DEVISIVE TOPIC, and always will be.

My title of this thread and my explaination here are my HEART FELT beliefs from scriptures, but not meant to be forced on anyone here.
You all have the right to your own beliefs, and I'm just sharing mine as another choice you may consider after reading my post.

I am not a "GLADIATOR coming here to the "COLISEUM of Christian WARFARE.
I don't fight - I DISCUSS.
Thank you God!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42 years ago when I gave my life to Christ, Christianity was much different than today.
Romans 14"22 Says, "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God.
Happy is he who doesn't condemn himself in what he approves".

Some of what was believed at the time when I was Born Again 42 years ago, I still hold as true, while there are many other teachings, I have discovered through my studies and prayer life, and leading of the Holy Spirit, I found that there are false teachings of major bible doctrine at every church I have ever attended.

I have spent 42 years not only reading, studying, and researching the bible, but I have studied the history of the bible and church history from the beginning.

I am 76 years old and have had 17 years of retirement, and have spent thousands of hours in my studies, so I feel confident that I am at least right for myself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me "Believing" is not a point of salvation, but is a beginning point where we are lead to a conditional state of being saved, where the process of salvation begins, when at our time of baptism before we are baptized, we confess our faith in Christ by proclaiming "WE BELIVE in Christ as our Savior, and we repent of our sins and ask God for forgiveness of our past sinful life, Acts 2:38 and once we are "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST" Romans 6:3, and are forgiven of our sins Acts 2:38, and receive the "GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT Acts 2;38.
When studied out in the original Greek language , the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT is conditional, as told to us in 2nd Corinthians 1:21-22,'Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us, is God:
22)Who has "SEALED (arrabon or sphragizo) us (A temporary or conditional mark of ownership that we can give up in rebellion) and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a "PLEDGE" or"EARNEST" (arrabon or sphragizo Down payment ,temporary guarantee, deposit earnest agreement as in buying a house, that we must fulfill).
Same as 2nd Cor, 5:5 says, "Now he who prepared us for the very purpose of eternal life(See verse 4) is God, who Gave to us the SPIRIT as a PLEDGE.
Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God who you were sealed by (sphragizo or arrabon) unto the day of redemption.

So as 2nd Cor. 5:17 says, "if any man IS IN CHRIST (You have to be in CHRIST) he is a new creation. "

How do you get into Christ??
Back to Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that all who have been "BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"...have been BAPTIZED into His death.

6:5) "For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death (Through baptism), certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection .
5:11) "...so consider yourself to be dead to sin, but alive to God "IN CHRIST"

Again, how do you get into Christ? - Romans 6:3 "YOU ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"!!

Romans 8:1," There is therefore no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS."

Again, how do you get into Christ Jesus - Romans 6:3 , "YOU ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST"

Romans 8:9, "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to God."

Again, How do we get the Spirit of Christ? - Acts 3:38, "We are baptized and receive the GIFT of the Holy spirit.

We can be freed from sin - in BAPTISM - Romans6:7,"...for he who has been BAPTIZED is FREED FROM SIN."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same and there is only one way to receive either - that's through BAPTISM

So is baptism MANDATORY?
You can ask for forgiveness of your past sins - BAPTISM
You can be forgiven - BAPTISM
You can repent of your sins - BAPTISM
You can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - BAPTISM
You can be in Christ - BAPTISM
You can be freed from sin - BAPTISM
Romans 6:7,"For he who has been BAPTIZED is freed from sin."
You can receive an earnest or down payment on eternal life. - BAPTISM.

Where else in the bible do you get all this in one act of obeying God about our starting place and foundation for being saved and salvation????

Salvation is also conditional on observing the Sabbath
Salvation is also conditional on obeying the 10 Commandments
Another day!!

There is so much more, but I'm close to writing a small book.
God bless you all
My name is OLIGOS

Actually, it hasn't always been a decisive topic. It's only since the Reformation. Before that no one really questioned the necessity of Baptism.

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Jesus makes this clear in Mark.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk. 16:16 KJV)

Believeth and "is baptize" is present tense. Shall be saved, is future tense. This indicates that saved follows belief and baptism. There is no way around this grammatical argument.

 

[mailmandan]

Actually, it hasn't always been a decisive topic. It's only since the Reformation. Before that no one really questioned the necessity of Baptism.

Baptism is necessary for salvation. Jesus makes this clear in Mark.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk. 16:16 KJV)

Believeth and "is baptize" is present tense. Shall be saved, is future tense. This indicates that saved follows belief and baptism. There is no way around this grammatical argument.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Thank you Getitright
When people have been inculcated to think other ways contrary to this as I was, the thinking becomes so ingrained it's next to impossible to retrain oneself.

I was blessed as I always questioned whether my salvation and church choice were accurate or even Godly, and over time, God open my eyes to see the errors of my ways, and I was able to change and find a truth of salvation that works all through the bible - PRAISE GOD I could change.

My name is OLIGOS

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Glad I'm no longer searching and have a solid foundation in Christ, and don't need anyone else's opinion for myself.

I'm glad each of us have to find our own path, and will only answer to God, not anyone here.

My name is OLIGOS

 

[Getitright]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Because it wasn't necessary for Him to mention baptism to His audience.

 

[marks]

In 1st Corinthians 13:13, scripture says, "But now abide faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.

I see love as being the greatest as faith and hope are for this age only, love remains throughout the ages. Once we see Him, the time for faith, and the hope it secures, are done. We will have what we hoped for.

Much love!

 

[Getitright]

Thank you Getitright
When people have been cultivated to think other ways contrary to this as I was, the thinking becomes so ingrained it's next to impossible to retrain oneself.

I was blessed as I always questioned whether my salvation and church choice were accurate or even Godly, and over time, God open my eyes to see the errors of my ways, and I was able to change and find a truth of salvation that works all through the bible - PRAISE GOD I could change.

My name is OLIGOS

Hi OLIGOS, I'm glad to hear you were open to change. I too have gone though a metamorphosis. I was taught a lot of things in churches that turned out to be wrong. This was one of them. I am always searching for the truth. No doctrine is off limits.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I am thinking about changing my presence here by choosing to let everyone continue in their own beliefs as most will anyway, but try to develop friendships based on prayer and fellowship, and believing the kind people here have a really good heart and want to be loved as I do, but we don't have to change what we believe or others believe.
God changes us as we search His word, so we don't need anyone trying to be our HOLY SPIRIT.

Nice realization.

My name is OLIGOS

 

[marks]

to possibly understand how we could possibly be loved by God and called into His kingdom with different perspectives on how to come to Christ, if it's a heartfelt commitment to Christ, not legalistic ideas or from rule keeping, but that a persons calling from God, may still be his salvation?

Have you ever listened to this fellow? For anyone who hasn't, this could be life changing . . . I'm serious . . . and I never say that . . .

One of the things he talks about is God's self-sufficiency, and how this shows He's not looking for something to come from us, rather, He's looking for whom He might pour His goodness into.

If our hearts are towards Him, He is for us. And in that we're talking about our Faithful Creator, well, He made us because He wants us and that doesn't change. All of this creation is here to be a place for us, and so that we could come to know Him, and love Him, and be His family.

Sin proves to all that on our own we cannot be with Him, even being His Own design, because God is that transcendant. Any created thing must be infinitely less than the Creator.

Jesus proves to all God's love for man, His creation, created to be with Him. That God will step down into us out of His love for us to draw us back to Him, in the only real love relationship that can exist, one of mutual desire.

It's always and only through Jesus Christ, because That Man was The One Who died, and in Him alone we may die the death of sin, but without being destroyed by it. As we share His death, we share His victory over death, and our physical death doesn't destroy us, because we have gained a new kind of life.

We were born from Adam, now we are born from God, a new creation, a new humanity.

Our new life is God living in us, united to us. What God has joined together let no man separate! I don't think man has the ability to separate from God, having been born from Him. I think it's in the same way that you cannot unbirth yourself from your parents. You were born from them, and that fact is who you are. Same with God, being born from Him, we simply are children of God.

That child will never die. Even dying will live.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am thinking about changing my presence here by choosing to let everyone continue in their own beliefs as most will anyway, but try to develop friendships based on prayer and fellowship, and believing the kind people here have a really good heart and want to be loved as I do, but we don't have to change what we believe or others believe.
God changes us as we search His word, so we don't need anyone trying to be our HOLY SPIRIT.

Nice realization.

My name is OLIGOS

I hope I'm not pushing you away!

I've been enjoying having this discussion with someone nice! I don't always get that opportunity. But I do have about a dozen on ignore right now.

Much love!