Is Christianity justified? The relation between religion and epistemology

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Lunar

New Member
Nov 23, 2007
358
3
0
38
Hello everyone!As someone who was raised in a Christian household but has recently undergone a period of questioning in his life (for a number of reasons, though as I understand this isn't uncommon and is in fact encouraged by some Christians), I've committed quite a bit of thought to the relation between religion and epistemology. The question of how one could or ought to rationally justify his or her belief in God, and how such a belief can exist coherently within a rational belief system, is an extraordinarily complex and fascinating problem. I've tried to approach the question in a religious-neutral context - that is, argue to my conclusions without presupposing the validity of either theism or atheism. I suppose my question will become clear by the end of the post.I should probably begin by outlining the fundamental points of my own epistemological system. The first major hump that I had to get over in my search for properly justified knowledge was the realization that I cannot objectively presuppose any particular epistemological foundation. I came about this conclusion by looking at the problem of the foundationalist infinite regress. The gist of the problem is this: Each piece of knowledge that we have must in turn be justified by some other piece of knowledge. If I hear the sound of a bird chirping, for example, the chain of justification may go something like this:A) There is a bird nearby. How do I know that there is a bird nearby? Because
cool.gif
I hear a bird chirping. How do I know that I hear a bird chirping? BecauseC) I have heard birds chirping in the past and that is what they sound like. How do I know that I have heard birds chirping in the past and that that is what they sound like? BecauseD) I have thoughts held vividly before my mind in memory describing the sound of a bird chirping, and they correspond closely to the sounds that am I hearing. How do I know that...And so on. It quickly becomes clear that this chain of justification is going to go on forever, with no end in sight. To strip away the example and put it in logical terms:A) Suppose that I know a statement P. If I know P, it must be justified in some way.
cool.gif
The only thing that can justify a statement P is another statement (call it P1).C) For P1 to be a satisfactory justification for P, I must know P1, and in turn P1 must be justified.D) The only thing that can justify a statement P1 is another statement (call it P2.)E) For P2 to be a satisfactory justification for P1, I must know P2...Again, the problem of the infinite regress arises in the same way. We're going to run into this problem for for any piece of knowledge that we purport to have. Some have attempted to solve the problem by claiming that there are certain pieces of knowledges/truths that are self-evident. I don't find this argument terribly convincing, for reasons that I'll elaborate upon further if asked about them specifically (the long and short of it is that we can't possibly even conceive of the notion of self-evidence without other ideas already in place, and our concept of what is self-evident is invariably colored by a presupposed and unjustified epistemological framework).I do, however, end up proposing a solution that is somewhat similar to this. The problem, to summarize what we've realized thus far, is that we can't seem to find a way to get off the ground. Where can we find that justified "first belief" that allows us to justify everything else in turn? The way that I am going to address this problem is this: There are certain beliefs that inform all other beliefs that we presuppose without any justification for them. I will call these foundational beliefs. These beliefs are, in the strictest sense, irrational, because we haven't justified them rationally, we've just adopted them for whatever reason. Perhaps they move our passions in a certain way, perhaps we simply need to grasp at something to start up those whole epistemological enterprise. But they're there. Think of them like axioms.I should note that many foundational beliefs, though they are irrational, are shared by the vast majority of people. Examples of commonly shared foundational beliefs would be the legitimacy of basic logical rules and principles of induction, trust in our empirical sense data in the absence of something that would cause us to believe otherwise (things we see, hear, smell, touch, etc.), and so forth - these are "common sense" beliefs. None of them can be justified in absolute terms - i.e., in the absence of any other knowledge - but that's no mark against them; after all, nothing can be logically justified in the absence of any other knowledge. We simply presuppose them because, well, they're useful.Once we have foundational beliefs in place, we can then begin to form a framework of contingent beliefs which are justified by virtue of these foundational beliefs. I think that the vast majority of our beliefs can be justified by the combination of the legitimacy of a) basic logical laws and
cool.gif
trust in empirical sense data. To go back to the example of the bird chirping, we would no longer have the problem of an infinite regress. We would be left with:A) There is a bird nearby. How do I know that there is a bird nearby? Because
cool.gif
I hear a bird chirping. How do I know that I hear a bird chirping? BecauseC) I have heard birds chirping in the past and that is what they sound like. How do I know that I have heard birds chirping in the past and that that is what they sound like? BecauseD) It is a basic axiom of my belief that I can trust what I hear. That's obviously a very dumbed-down version of it, of course. But hopefully you get the idea. And those foundational beliefs, or axioms of belief, are what are powering this entire epistemological engine. All other beliefs that we have are either contingent upon these foundational beliefs, or are not justified beliefs. The vast majority of our beliefs are contingent; it will likely only be a select few that are foundational. And, most of us will probably share the same foundational beliefs (like trust in our senses or logical laws) - but there is no logical imperative stopping us from adopting other beliefs as foundational as well.This is where religion comes in, and this is where I will make my fundamental assertion about the relation between religion and epistemology. It is possible that belief in God can be justified as legitimately as the belief in rationality, but it must be either as a foundational belief, or as a belief contingent upon a very unconventional set of foundational beliefs. Nothing is stopping us from simply presupposing God as one of the primary axioms that informs all our other beliefs. Indeed, this may well be what faith is all about, isn't it? So, in one sense, religion is as rationally justified as rationality itself. However, there are several important points that we must bear in mind about all this.1) When I say that religion is as rationally justified as rationality itself, I mean that, like rationality, it is not justified at all. It is simply an epistemological concession that we need to make.2) This does not mean that religion can be justified contingently from rationality. Indeed, if one were to adopt only a) basic logical laws and
cool.gif
trust in one's sense data as their foundational beliefs, then I think religion could not be justified. So, those who wish to reconcile any objective statements about religion with science and logic are out of luck.3) Religion could be justified contingently, but anything can be justified contingently if we have the right foundational beliefs. My foundational belief may be "I should believe whatever my mother tells me" (which of course is irrational, but then so are all foundational beliefs), and if my mother happens to tell me that, say, Scientology was correct, then I would be justified in believing it. Of course, (almost) no one would adopt this belief as foundational, but what's important is that we remember whether it's a foundational belief, or whether it's something we're bound to by foundational beliefs.So that's the long and short of my epistemological system. I personally didn't happen to have my passions moved by the concept of any particular religion, so I didn't adopt it foundationally. And I certainly don't see any way in which any religion could be justified contingently by my own belief system (in other words, justified rationally, though by all means, I confess my own ignorance on that particular subject and I'm certainly open to any suggestions).And that leads me (finally!) to my question. How do you, personally, consider your belief in Christianity to be epistemically justified? Was belief in Christianity simply something you presupposed as a cornerstone of your entire belief system, as a matter of faith? Or would you object to my statements, and say that Christianity can be argued to rationally? I ask this out of a genuine desire to understand the mindset that leads one to Christianity, and to see if it could possibly resonate with my own. At the moment, of course, I'm confused on how one could reconcile belief in Christianity - or any religion - with the axioms of belief that I have adopted and that I believe most people have adopted. But I certainly don't have the audacity to write off all theists as ignorant or stupid - I fully expect this to be enlightening (hopefully for the both of us!)Thanks for reading all this. I hope it wasn't too long.
 

SilentFlight

New Member
Aug 13, 2006
106
0
0
32
I went through a period of questioning, dont worry about it too much it will be ok. Trust God and your heart.I found through my questioning and learning that christianity was not the best for me, instead I am happy to wait 'till jugement day and know i did my best to be a good person but did not follow the bible. When i stepped away and looked at thngs i realised how beautiful the world was how i did not see that when i was studying heavily. I also found i did not believe things were wrong when they are supposed to be. Although i am glad i spent the time studying christianty and the friends i made are great.
 

lastsecman

New Member
Nov 8, 2006
229
3
0
41
You are trying to argue Christianity through human logical thinkingBut because there are many things we dont yet understand about this worldTherefore it wont get you very far
 

Lunar

New Member
Nov 23, 2007
358
3
0
38
I think you're right, lastsecman. I think trying to argue to Christianity rationally is going to be futile - I don't think you can find any argument that objectively proves God's existence - but it's also kind of missing the point. I believe that the act of becoming a Christian is a deeply personal and emotional experience, and that once you experience it, you will know that it supercedes any kind of human rationality that we can muster.
 

lastsecman

New Member
Nov 8, 2006
229
3
0
41
Does this mean you would want to experience that experience too? If so, pray to him. If you really mean it, he'd hear you and let you feel his presence in the future.Wether the near future or the very far future i dont know.But if you really really really need him that urgently because you are very sad and really really really need him now, then he would'nt hesitate to let you feel his presence now.Because he knows you more than you know yourself, if you believe that's the case
smile.gif
 

ps77

New Member
Nov 3, 2007
79
0
0
33
I've been in periods of questioning for the past few years now. This is a very interesting post, and one very close to what my exact thoughts were (although, a little less organized). My one problem with any of that though, is, there are many things we cannot begin to understand about this world. I choose to believe in God, because I look at the world, and there is no other "rational" explanation for everything I see. My foundational belief in God, leads me to search the religions of the world for the "right" religion. That led me to percieve that none of the religions of the world were satisfying, because they did not off what I believe God has to offer. I believe that God is outside of religion, i mean, cannot be defined by religion. We can try as hard as we want, but we can never capture God in a definition, a picture, a time frame, etc. I believe that Jesus Christ walked this earth for obvious reasons (because he did), and I believe he is who he said he was. He was a glimpse of God. Fully man, but fully God. No one else could provide what he could, could capture God as he could. I believe that the bible was inspired by God, and the teachings of God, written by man. I do not believe it is the inerrant, literal, absolute word of God in full. Now, when I examine the Bible, I see that it is a conjunction of books, written by many different authors, over a period of 1600 years, spanning 3 different continents, and as many languages. Now, that is a rediculous amount of diversity right there, but, there is a certain consistency of the Bible. Yeah, sure, it can be subject to minor errors here and there (which have major reprecussions), but the main truths still hold firm. I'm still in the midst of developing all this. I am definitely an advocate of finding out for yourself what you believe, and not just following the indoctrination of your youth. That can be naive and blind, at times, and is partially dangerous. I am constantly challenging my own beliefs, so that I may find myself knowing exactly what I believe, and that I can make some sense of it.
 

Logical_One

New Member
Dec 5, 2007
23
0
0
34
ps77: no other explanation makes as much sense as an invisible man in the sky making the world for no apparent reason, creating man with the capacity to do evil, then getting mad at man for doing the evil which he gave him the capacity to do(which was the act of eating an apple no less) and therefore, because he is all loving, deciding that all of human kind should be punished for the rest of eternity?Oh, and also, the invisible man in the sky is all powerful and psychic, and can see you at all times, and knows exactly what you're thinking and feeling inside, but decides to test you to find out anyways, and if you don't do what he tells you to (even though he knows all of your reasons) he will let you burn in hell for all eternity, despite being the incarnation of love and forgiveness?nothing else can explain the world as well as that?
 

Pariah

New Member
Nov 10, 2007
416
0
0
60
Logical_One,If God left it at that, you would have had a good argument, but He did not.God came down and dwelt among us. He suffered and died, and rose again to give us life. No greater love than that. Does that sound like a God playing with us as mere pawns thus being impersonal? Or does that sound like God trying to bring us back to live with Him again to that redeemed point where we would never be seperate from Him again and all that is good?Since we saw what happened to the devil and his doom is certain, does it not show God in loving us so that we would NEVER be sinning and thus apart from Him ever again?Does all of this shows that if nothing bad had ever happened... if we had never sinned, would one of us ... in the course of eternity would ask the question... what is outside God? Would that curiosity doom us since nothing good is outside of God? If one sees God is good... then anything outside of God is not good. One can see all those that did not seek God nor be a part of Him, rejecting His love and plan of salvation... because they prefer the darkness rather than come to the Light... thus Hell and the lake of fire is that place where those that do not want to be with God and all that is good of Him... to that place where nothing good dwells...I really don't think this is the time for idle intellectual battery. Seek Him now while there is still time.. for death may strike at any moment.And it is amazing how those that are about to die, suddenly believe in God. Well, believe this, Logical_One... all those that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is as simple as that since it takes God to save us to redeem us from our fallen state to bring us Home to live with Him again. Sounds pretty logical to me. How can something broken fix himself? One can't. The job is left to the Creator turned Redeemer. Amen.
 

blacksmith

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
7
0
0
53
PariahHow is it that you speak of that which is outside god, hasn’t the entire universe come into existence through, by, for, with and in Christ, and haven’t all things been reconciled to god in Christ (Colossians 1)? And isn’t the purpose of the universes existence the adoption of the human race (Ephesians)? What is the hell you speak of; do you posit that the man who now dwells with his father, while holding all things in place, has one last sinister character flaw up his sleeve?
 

blacksmith

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
7
0
0
53
LunarHaven’t you just demonstrated that your beliefs are unfounded in the absence of irrational acceptance, which can’t be epistemologically justified? Why wouldn’t you ask yourself- what is the impetus for belief if it cant be justified? You must have reasons for believing, and if they’re unjustifiable- why believe? I suspect that what you are calling Christianity can’t be argued rationally, I can demonstrate my views rationally, but you might not call it Christianity. I don’t see why we need irrational beliefs.
 

Lunar

New Member
Nov 23, 2007
358
3
0
38
(blacksmith;26179)
LunarHaven’t you just demonstrated that your beliefs are unfounded in the absence of irrational acceptance, which can’t be epistemologically justified? Why wouldn’t you ask yourself- what is the impetus for belief if it cant be justified? You must have reasons for believing, and if they’re unjustifiable- why believe?
Blacksmith - I am arguing that all belief can't be epistemologically justified in the absence of some initial irrational acceptance. What we accept initially as our subjective foundations informs all of our other beliefs, which are contingently rational so long as we accept a few basic epistemological axioms (of which belief in God might be one).
 

blacksmith

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
7
0
0
53
LunarWhen a train goes past a station, which one is moving; the train, or the station? The train moves in relation to the station, and the station moves in relation to the sun. The question then becomes- is the sun foundational or stationary, or does it also move in relation to a further more axiom like body? Clearly the question is meaningless due to the existence of infinity (there may be an endless supply of suns all moving in relation to one another, with no truly stationary reference point). The position and nature of everything is defined by its relation to everything else, and so to view anything as foundational is arbitrary.It might be simpler to say, that everything existing was caused by something, and all those causes were caused, and so on infinitely. Each new eruption of creation must come from an older creation, if time/space/matter collapses it must collapse back into the reality from which it was generated, breaking down into the parts that made it up. To call something foundational amounts to naming the point in the process where it all stops, and can degenerate no more, not only is it impossible to see, but all the universe suggests that temporary things, are made up of temporary things, which are made up of temporary things, etc.All beliefs being unjustified, why believe at all, is perception not enough? For example- I perceive that I exist, it might be an illusion of some kind, but knowing that there is no ultimate or foundational reality necessarily, I can say that based on my information, I exist. I haven’t entered into any dogma or belief at this point, but with an open mind I can consider what happens next, and continue to test my perception. Why believe at all?
 

Lunar

New Member
Nov 23, 2007
358
3
0
38
(blacksmith;26488)
When a train goes past a station, which one is moving; the train, or the station? The train moves in relation to the station, and the station moves in relation to the sun. The question then becomes- is the sun foundational or stationary, or does it also move in relation to a further more axiom like body? Clearly the question is meaningless due to the existence of infinity (there may be an endless supply of suns all moving in relation to one another, with no truly stationary reference point). The position and nature of everything is defined by its relation to everything else, and so to view anything as foundational is arbitrary.
You're presenting a coherentist view of the world, rather than a linear foundationalist view?(blacksmith)
All beliefs being unjustified, why believe at all, is perception not enough?
Perception is enough - granted that you assume that what you perceive can be trusted.(blacksmith)
Why believe at all?
Well, I think it would be a very strange (and probably useless) philosophy that did not purport to believe anything at all. We're going to want to believe at least some things. The issue is finding out what we ought to believe, what we ought not to believe, and why.
 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry Lunar, but I'm not much interested in Philosophy and Epistemology. The problem is that any point and its counterpoint can be argued. It doesn't necessarily always go to the better arguer or the smarter person....or more importantly the "true" point.There is always an exception (or two or more even) in this realm.I say this as an English major well versed in deconstructionism. You can take any work or reasoning of man and make it ambivalent. It's not difficult and people are paid to do this on a daily basis. They spend their lives doing it and thinking about it.Belief is irrational, hope always persists when there is none. There's nothing there to explain it because it doesn't make sense on that level.
 

blacksmith

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
7
0
0
53
Lunar I am presenting a coherentist view of the world because coherentism makes sense, as opposed to foundationalism that requires irrational acceptance.The difference between perception and belief is surely the fact that belief is dogmatic, where perception is indicative, and may or may not be trustworthy. But still I ask why we need any belief? Based on perception we can proceed with an open mind, and function as we need to, making choices and observing outcomes. The practice of belief (without validation) creates predictable outcomes for our worldview, that may or may not be correct, isn’t this detrimental to our capacity to learn, and change, and grow? How do you advocate on the one hand-‘ finding out what we ought to believe and why’, and on the other- ‘irrational acceptance’? It seems to me that the more ‘strange and useless’ philosophy is one that advocates premature acceptance, with inadequate validation, it is crass and unnecessary.DenverIf the point can always be argued, is it better to skip the argument and jump to a conclusion, or remain skeptical, and open-minded? Perhaps you have just argued my point. 'Belief is irrational, hope always persists when there is none. There's nothing there to explain it because it doesn't make sense on that level.'Finally someone has stated it plainly, hope remains even though belief is irrational. Isn’t this because hope is utterly rational, because we are wired for a home where we can survive and be satisfied, and we hope it exists, and that we didn’t come here by meaningless chance, and that we wont be annihilated, but will find our place? You still don’t need to believe anything, certainty is unattainable, hope is bullet proof. Hope makes perfect sense- somehow existence has come out of non existence, life out of inanimate, and conscious from living, the inner logic of the universe has generated beings capable of intimacy, against the overwhelming odds of annihilation. I hope that the way I am built is as meaningful as it appears, and that I am being adopted into my home, the Christian tradition tells me I am, and so does every other tradition, but I cant know, I can only perceive, so I hope. By the way, I’m not an English major, I’m a rural worker that never completed high school.
 

Lunar

New Member
Nov 23, 2007
358
3
0
38
(blacksmith;26772)
Lunar I am presenting a coherentist view of the world because coherentism makes sense, as opposed to foundationalism that requires irrational acceptance.
blacksmith:Coherentism does require irrational acceptance as well, though. If each of the beliefs you hold justifies each other in turn, then there is a way in which their justification is circular. Also, there's not an obvious way in which a coherentist belief system actually relates to reality proper - many systems can be coherent, but that doesn't make them all true. Those are a few of the difficulties for coherentism. I'm sure responses could be formulated, but in general I don't think coherentism can escape from being based on certain irrational claims any more than foundationalism can. To believe in anything at all is to make assumptions.(blacksmith)
The difference between perception and belief is surely the fact that belief is dogmatic, where perception is indicative, and may or may not be trustworthy. But still I ask why we need any belief? Based on perception we can proceed with an open mind, and function as we need to, making choices and observing outcomes.
I don't think that is how I'd define belief. Belief and perception aren't mutually exclusive. You cannot perceive something and operate on it but not believe what you have perceived. (I can't, anyways; if you can I consider you a very exceptional person.)(blacksmith)
The practice of belief (without validation) creates predictable outcomes for our worldview, that may or may not be correct, isn’t this detrimental to our capacity to learn, and change, and grow?
Well, there's a very big difference between belief, and belief without validation. I'm not an advocate of belief without validation in any circumstance except those in which it is absolutely necessary. The matter of epistemological foundations is one such circumstance.(blacksmith)
How do you advocate on the one hand-‘ finding out what we ought to believe and why’, and on the other- ‘irrational acceptance’? It seems to me that the more ‘strange and useless’ philosophy is one that advocates premature acceptance, with inadequate validation, it is crass and unnecessary.
I advocate "irrational acceptance" of a few base categories because without them we can accept absolutely nothing. Naturally, I'd like to "irrationally accept" as few things as possible. But there's really no way you can believe anything without having some foundations to start upon. Even if you were to bring up coherentism, how would that escape dogma? In the absence of all other facts about the world, there's no way that coherentism could stand alone and rationally compell you to adopt it.Believe me, I can identify with wanting to not adopt beliefs irrationally. And I'm definitely not advocating a system in which we can just adopt whatever beliefs we want. It's not the case that all our beliefs should be irrational, just the most basic ones which we cannot escape. The rest of our beliefs are rational with respect to those beliefs - they're like axioms, as I said. And I think you really can't escape the acknowledgment that somewhere along the line, you made an assumption which can't be rationally proved. Even the most basic utterance of a sentence depends on the definition of the concepts that comprise it to be intelligible, and those concepts on other concepts. No view can be rationally justified and yet exist independent of all other thought.This is moving away from theology and more towards pure philosophy, but that's okay with me, I suppose.
 

blacksmith

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
7
0
0
53
Lunar You seem to have failed to understand my point, which I tried to make using the example of train, station, and sun. I will try again; to describe the trajectory of a moving object, it must be measured against a fictitious rigid mass. The fictitious rigid mass is arbitrary, as nothing can be assumed to be stationary, because we don’t know the limits of the universe. Therefore the trajectory of the moving object can only be described in relation to something, which may or may not be moving, and is therefore only a valid measurement in that context. This way of thinking is transferable to philosophy, and requires no acceptance of axioms beyond a limited context, no belief, no dogma, and no irrational acceptance, all actions are based on managed risk. Why then make the leap to accepting universal axioms like- there is a god? What’s wrong with- my sense of meaning makes it seem as if there may be a god, or- everything seems to have a cause, and that suggests an ultimate cause? The problem with theology is that it is entirely based on the proposition that the inner logic of the universe has become human; yet there seems to be no reason to think that this has happened. In the absence of impetus for this suspicion, theology is pointless.
 

Lunar

New Member
Nov 23, 2007
358
3
0
38
blacksmith:I don't think what you're describing is actually even contradictory to what I've said. All truth is understandable in relation to our foundational beliefs. That being said, I fear that I'm still not grasping your point, specifically when you say it requires "no acceptance of axioms beyond a limited context." Here's the kicker: You say that there's no "reason" to think that the universe has become human. That's fine. But there's no "reason" to presuppose that we need a reason at all. Rationality itself is a presupposition (for many, like I've said, one of the very few which they're going to make, which is also fine). Whatever logical structure dictates that we don't have a reason to presuppose a God is a dogma of its own kind.So, why make the leap? You can't avoid making leaps. Simply by even asking the question, you've already committed yourself to something. Why make the leap to God in particular? Well, at the level of a foundational belief, there's nothing saying you ought to one way or the other. You're just as justified as adopting one belief as foundational as you are any other (though you can probably think of some, like trust in your senses, that most people would almost certainly want to adopt regardless of whether they're rational, and others, like that all things are not identical to themselves, that pretty much no one would want to adopt).Your own system still makes leaps. You claim that your system is based on "managed risk." Is there some sort of demonstrable proof that this ought to be how we go about belief? Is there even a "proof" that we ought to be rational at all (this seems obvious, but if you look at human psychology we consistently prove ourselves to be quite the opposite)? You want to avoid irrational acceptance, but even that itself is a dogma. You can't rationally prove that you ought to be rational.
 

blacksmith

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
7
0
0
53
All truth is understandable in relation to our foundational beliefs.Neither the sun, the station, or the train are foundational, not one of their trajectories contains any truth in the absence of the others. Nothing is certain beyond a limited description, and most significantly- no foundation is required. Once enough information is gathered, every new piece can be cross-referenced against a network of described trajectories, all of which support one another. Why be afraid of infinite regress? If I say that my house is 20 sticks long, and give the stick as its own measurement, then as long as we have that stick, we know the answer is 20. If we change the stick or the house, we must remeasure, these things can only be known in relation to one another. The problem arises when we seek universal truth, because we end up with an endless series of facts supporting facts, but why do you need universal truth? Can’t we use the information that this house is 20 times the length of this stick?Rationality itself is a presupposition (for many, like I've said, one of the very few which they're going to make, which is also fine).Rationality is a presupposition if we believe that something must be arbitrarily accepted as foundational, the observed universe being utterly mathematical leaves rationality not as an arbitrary choice, but as the relevant means of discernment. Of course this doesn’t mean that mathematics and rationality must be accepted as dogma, but that it is relevant in this context, as is proven from several vantage points. Irrational acceptance however, provides no possible advantage in a mathematical context. Whatever logical structure dictates that we don't have a reason to presuppose a God is a dogma of its own kind.If I demonstrate by experiment that the statement 1+1=2 is very reliable, and as a result I hypothesise that 2+2=4, would you call this the irrational acceptance of dogma? I thought it was simple logic, and valid in this context, as a way of determining the probability of anything existing.Is there even a "proof" that we ought to be rational at all (this seems obvious, but if you look at human psychology we consistently prove ourselves to be quite the opposite)?Are you arguing that a biological being, acts without impetus? Human psychology is nothing but rational, if you can’t see the impetus, that doesn’t mean its not there. I look forward to hearing examples of this. You want to avoid irrational acceptance, but even that itself is a dogma. You can't rationally prove that you ought to be rational.[/QUOTE]So correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears you are attempting to use logic to refute the argument for the use of logic? I could just use empirical evidence, and say that dogma that fits the evidence is acceptable when and only when it fits the evidence, but then it wouldn’t be dogma, would it.
 

Lunar

New Member
Nov 23, 2007
358
3
0
38
(blacksmith;26977)
Neither the sun, the station, or the train are foundational, not one of their trajectories contains any truth in the absence of the others. Nothing is certain beyond a limited description, and most significantly- no foundation is required. Once enough information is gathered, every new piece can be cross-referenced against a network of described trajectories, all of which support one another.
You still need to presuppose the very epistemological categories which make them coherent with respect to one another. (This is the most important problem for your argument, I think. Even coherentism needs to presuppose its qualifiers for being coherent in the first place, which is actually a nontrivial problem.) (blacksmith)
Rationality is a presupposition if we believe that something must be arbitrarily accepted as foundational, the observed universe being utterly mathematical leaves rationality not as an arbitrary choice, but as the relevant means of discernment.
How are you defining what is the "relevant means of discernment?" Rationality? Intuition? Convenience? None of these things are intrinsically justified.(blacksmith)
Of course this doesn’t mean that mathematics and rationality must be accepted as dogma, but that it is relevant in this context, as is proven from several vantage points.
How are you defining what qualifies as a proof? You can't do that in the absence of all other beliefs.(blacksmith)
If I demonstrate by experiment that the statement 1+1=2 is very reliable, and as a result I hypothesise that 2+2=4, would you call this the irrational acceptance of dogma? I thought it was simple logic, and valid in this context, as a way of determining the probability of anything existing.
Believing something as the result of an experiment wouldn't be a dogma, no (well, it might be, but that would be an extremely odd way of going about things, definitely not the way most people go about it). That would be contingent upon another belief, and rational with respect to it. Belief in empiricism itself, however, is a dogma. David Hume gave a rather convincing argument for this - the only way you could justify empiricism is with empiricism.(blacksmith)
Are you arguing that a biological being, acts without impetus? Human psychology is nothing but rational, if you can’t see the impetus, that doesn’t mean its not there. I look forward to hearing examples of this.
Of course they don't act completely without impetus, but the claim that human psychology is completely rational is patently false and flies in the face of the last 80 or so years of psychology. That being said, even if human psychology were intrinsically rational - a belief which I don't think is defensible, but I've neither the expertise nor the inclination to segue from philosophy into psychology - that wouldn't make it epistemologically justified. Naturalistic fallacy.(blacksmith)
So correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears you are attempting to use logic to refute the argument for the use of logic? I could just use empirical evidence, and say that dogma that fits the evidence is acceptable when and only when it fits the evidence, but then it wouldn’t be dogma, would it.
You could use empiricism, but you've not yet justified empiricism. As for my own case, using logic to refute the argument for the use of logic is actually just fine, as I'm arguing from your grounds (that rationality is rationally justified) rather than my own. If you accept those grounds, then the argument follows, and you see that rationality is not rationally justified.Like I said before - to justify rationality via rationality is a circular argument. There's no way to escape that problem. Rationality must be an epistemological axiom and nothing more.