Is Genesis 15:16 applicable to this present time from 1948?

[Jay Ross]

That's adding to the word of God.
Not gonna play.

Sorry, but you already have started to play by claiming that I have added to the word of God.

All that I can see is that you have given a negative opinion without providing any backing to your opinion that I have added to the word of God.

Without stating how I have added to the word of God your post is just pointless.

 

[Wrangler]

Goodbye

Goodbye.

That's adding to the word of God.
Not gonna play.

Agreed. His ego is not allowing him to acknowledge his errors. I’ll pray for him.

 

[JohnDB]

Sorry, but you already have started to play by claiming that I have added to the word of God.

All that I can see is that you have given a negative opinion without providing any backing to your opinion that I have added to the word of God.

Without state how I have added to the word of God your post is just pointless.

You have gone beyond what is written with your own imagination.

If we did that same thing with every law and precept then there's nothing left that is sacred.
Anything and everything is good....all dependent upon our own imagination...no reason to fear God at all....because we have an imagination.

I don't play that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When God told Abraham this prophecy, when was He indicating that it would come true?

Genesis 15:16 - But in the fourth generation/age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Genesis 15:16 predicts the Exodus.

 

[Jay Ross]

Genesis 15:16 predicts the Exodus.

No, Genesis 15:13-14 predicts the time spent in and the exodus from Egypt. Genesis 15:16 predicts the return of some of Abraham's descendants during the fourth age of their existence. Genesis 15:15 is inserted between the other two and it was a prophecy concerning Abrham's life and his dying in peace.

Genesis 15:13-14: - 13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.

I know that J. Barton Payne in His book "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy," makes this claim bur Genesis 15:13-16 contains three independent prophecies which are unrelated to each other.

 

[Jay Ross]

Agreed. His ego is not allowing him to acknowledge his errors. I’ll pray for him.

I will accept God's judgement of me for my errors and i will allow you to live in yours. Now since I do not know you and the lord has given me no leading of how or if I should pray for you, I will be quite towards praying for you at this present time.

Goodbye.

 

[Jay Ross]

You have gone beyond what is written with your own imagination.

If we did that same thing with every law and precept then there's nothing left that is sacred.
Anything and everything is good....all dependent upon our own imagination...no reason to fear God at all....because we have an imagination.

I don't play that.

You are welcome to your own opinion on what I have posted, but a claim expressed within an unsubstantiated opinion does not justify your claims about the prophecy contained within Genesis 15:16 or what I have written. It has a hollow ring to it.

 

[Wrangler]

I will accept God's judgement of me for my errors

Bu apparently, you will not admit your errors in the here and now.

Goodbye.

 

[JohnDB]

You are welcome to your own opinion on what I have posted, but a claim expressed within an unsubstantiated opinion does not justify your claims about the prophecy contained within Genesis 15:16 or what I have written. It has a hollow ring to it.

Prima fascia evidence requires no substantiation....the proof is in your OP of what you have done.
The onus is on you to prove that your imagination is correct.

Because 100 years is the length of Abraham's generations.(as to the timing of Isaac's birth) ..not 1,000 years of some Prophetic utterance cooked up by your imagination.

And....the timing of when Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt is in this timeline (although only by a decade...but inside nonetheless)
So to make some sort of eschatology out of this is clearly nonsense.

The last prophecies completed were how Jesus crushed the head of the serpent (Seed of the Woman) and in chapter 50 how the scepter was removed from between his feet as Jesus was being born. (Rome removed Israel's right to capital punishment of its citizens for Law violations)

If you don't know prophecy and how it was stated and fulfilled (it had a very definite formula order) Then you won't know anything concerning the ones yet to be fulfilled.

 

[Jay Ross]

Prima fascia evidence requires no substantiation....the proof is in your OP of what you have done.
The onus is on you to prove that your imagination is correct.

Because 100 years is the length of Abraham's generations.(as to the timing of Isaac's birth) ..not 1,000 years of some Prophetic utterance cooked up by your imagination.

And....the timing of when Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt is in this timeline (although only by a decade...but inside nonetheless)
So to make some sort of eschatology out of this is clearly nonsense.

The last prophecies completed were how Jesus crushed the head of the serpent (Seed of the Woman) and in chapter 50 how the scepter was removed from between his feet as Jesus was being born. (Rome removed Israel's right to capital punishment of its citizens for Law violations)

If you don't know prophecy and how it was stated and fulfilled (it had a very definite formula order) Then you won't know anything concerning the ones yet to be fulfilled.

Your case against what I have posted is your acceptance of commentaries that states that Genesis 15:16 is linked to the Genesis 15:13-14 prophecy of God leading Israel out of the Land of Egypt.

Most of these commentaries were penned before 1948 and also before the 1850's when Zionism was very much just an ideal that many Jews held to, the concept of establishing a nation in the land of Canaan which would be predominately made up of just Jews.

The ability of people since 70 AD were not able to comprehend the idea that the return of the Israelites to the "land" of Canaan would not happen until the end of the sixth age, which is also the end of the fourth age of the visitation of the fathers' iniquities upon their children and their children's children.

The majority of references of God gathering Israel back to Himself, is one of placing Israel in His fertile soil and not of returning them to the land of Canaan, as many believe.

The problem I have is that Jesus actually confirmed when the end of the Sixth Age would be in Matt 24:32 and that the 7th age/generation would not pass away until all that He had said had been completed. One of the signs given for the end of the 7th ages is that the heavens and the earth would pass away but not His words.

Now you claim that my understanding of the End Times and the associated prophetic words is just mealy based on my personal imagination, but the shoe is rather not on my feet as you are suggesting but rather the shoe is on your foot.

Much of my understanding of the End Time Prophecies dovetails neatly together to form a coherent picture of what will happen between now and when the 7th Age is completed.

Now if you still want to disagree with what I have posted, then let us have a reasoned discussion to clarify the truth of the matter.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Bu apparently, you will not admit your errors in the here and now.

Goodbye.

But that is your judgement, not God's.

Goodbye

 

[Wrangler]

But that is your judgement, not God's.

Goodbye

It is your judgement not to admit your mistakes in the here and now.

Goodbye.

 

[JohnDB]

Your case against what I have posted is your acceptance of commentaries that states that Genesis 15:16 is linked to the Genesis 15:13-14 prophecy of God leading Israel out of the Land of Egypt.

Most of these commentaries were penned before 1948 and also before the 1850's when Zionism was very much just an ideal that many Jews held to, the concept of establishing a nation in the land of Canaan which would be predominately made up of just Jews.

The ability of people since 70 AD were not able to comprehend the idea that the return of the Israelites to the "land" of Canaan would not happen until the end of the sixth age, which is also the end of the fourth age of the visitation of the fathers' iniquities upon their children and their children's children.

The majority of references of God gathering Israel back to Himself, is one of placing Israel in His fertile soil and not of returning them to the land of Canaan, as many believe.

The problem I have is that Jesus actually confirmed when the end of the Sixth Age would be in Matt 24:32 and that the 7th age/generation would not pass away until all that He had said had been completed. One of the signs given for the end of the 7th ages is that the heavens and the earth would pass away but not His words.

Now you claim that my understanding of the End Times and the associated prophetic words is just mealy based on my personal imagination, but the shoe is rather not on my feet as you are suggesting but rather the shoe is on your foot.

Much of my understanding of the End Time Prophecies dovetails neatly together to form a coherent picture of what will happen between now and when the 7th Age is completed.

Now if you still want to disagree with what I have posted, then let us have a reasoned discussion to clarify the truth of the matter.

Shalom

I don't use exegetical commentaries....I use expositional ones....and anthropology studies and historical research. So once again your imagination is wrong. (An expositor's commentary only discusses the language, grammar and etc....not anything else...and basically not relevant to this discussion)

I want to know what was said precisely and why it was said in the way it was said.

And for whatever reason you still don't see your own unsubstantiated leap in logic. There's nothing in this passage tying the future diasporas to it.

AND

If you try to use God's "generation"....it's a time, two times, and half a time. And again it doesn't fit anything that you have proposed.

Look, God's secrets are His. He isn't sharing them and it's unwise to try to reveal them when they are unrevealed. "Grasping at the wind" as Solomon put it.

Try understanding something much more relevant like the letter of James....

 

[Wrangler]

And for whatever reason you still don't see your own unsubstantiated leap in logic. There's nothing in this passage tying the future diasporas to it.

Well said. I tried to get him to examine his own unsubstantiated leap in logic with these questions.

Do you think every verse of the Bible is prophetic? What reasoning did you provide that this verse is prophetic?

Instead of examining his precepts, he launched into a fallacious Ad Homenim that I am not God, which renders nothing I say correct. Typical for @Jay Ross.

I do believe Israel's 1948 establishment is fulfillment of prophecy. I provided the verses. His ego for some reason cannot acknowledge the applicability of those verses. As you say, his imagination is unbound by the reality of the text. And his ego cannot accept the answer to his question, "Is Genesis 15:16 applicable to this present time from 1948?" is no.

It begs the question of why he asked the question ...

 

[Jay Ross]

It is your judgement not to admit your mistakes in the here and now.

Goodbye.

It seems to me that you have an axe to grind, and You are only being a troll now.

 

[Jay Ross]

I don't use exegetical commentaries....I use expositional ones....and anthropology studies and historical research. So once again your imagination is wrong. (An expositor's commentary only discusses the language, grammar and etc....not anything else...and basically not relevant to this discussion)

I want to know what was said precisely and why it was said in the way it was said.

And for whatever reason you still don't see your own unsubstantiated leap in logic. There's nothing in this passage tying the future diasporas to it.

AND

If you try to use God's "generation"....it's a time, two times, and half a time. And again it doesn't fit anything that you have proposed.

Look, God's secrets are His. He isn't sharing them and it's unwise to try to reveal them when they are unrevealed. "Grasping at the wind" as Solomon put it.

Try understanding something much more relevant like the letter of James....

You said in your post that you "want to know what was said precisely and why it was said in the way it was said." In the case of Genesis 15:16 you have failed to understand what was said precisely. As such, it is best for me to leave you with your poorly framed understanding of this one verse generated by your own imagination.

Goodbye

 

[RedFan]

The ability of people since 70 AD were not able to comprehend the idea that the return of the Israelites to the "land" of Canaan would not happen until the end of the sixth age, which is also the end of the fourth age of the visitation of the fathers' iniquities upon their children and their children's children.

If you are referring to verses like Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9, your interpretation of "third and fourth generation" as meaning three and four "ages" completely misses the purpose behind these verses. God punishes three or four generations to ensure that the sinner never lives long enough to see a descendant who is not paying for his sins, so that he will wail every day of his potentially long life at the visible consequences of his sin. (Aquinas saw this. “The text adds, ‘to the third and fourth generation,’ because men are wont to live long enough to see the third and fourth generation.” Summa Theologica Part II Q. 87 Art. 8.)

 

[Jay Ross]

If you are referring to verses like Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9, your interpretation of "third and fourth generation" as meaning three and four "ages" completely misses the purpose behind these verses. God punishes three or four generations to ensure that the sinner never lives long enough to see a descendant who is not paying for his sins, so that he will wail every day of his potentially long life at the visible consequences of his sin. (Aquinas saw this. “The text adds, ‘to the third and fourth generation,’ because men are wont to live long enough to see the third and fourth generation.” Summa Theologica Part II Q. 87 Art. 8.)

Whatever. My understanding is that the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers is still being visited upon their children and the Children's today during the fourth age of their existence. Since the iniquities of the fathers occurring over the first two ages of the existence of the Israelites, only began being visited upon the fathers' children and the children's children during the third and the fourth ages I do not believe that these verses are referring to descendant generation like you are suggesting but rather to ages.

Exodus 20:5: - 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations/ages of those who hate Me,

Exodus 34:7: - 7 maintaining loving devotion to a thousand generations,a
forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin.
Yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished;
He will visit the iniquity of the fathers
on their children and grandchildren
to the third and fourth generations/ages.”

Numbers 14:18: - 18‘The LORD is slow to anger and abounding in loving devotion,a forgiving iniquity and transgression. Yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished; He will visit the iniquity of the fathers upon their children to the third and fourth generation/ages.’

Deuteronomy 5:9: - 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations/ages of those who hate Me,

Hosea 6:1-3 presents a picture that confirms that Israel's idolatrous worship has been visited upon the fathers' children and the Children's children during the third and fourth day of the Lord which has the same duration as an Age.

Hosea 6:1-3 speaks of God inclining His ears towards the Israelites after two days of the Lord walking contrary to Israel and Israel walking contrary to God.

You are using the same reason as others have presented as to why Genesis 15:16 is not referring to 1948 AD.

Shalom

 

[RedFan]

You are using the same reason as others have presented as to why Genesis 15:16 is not referring to 1948 AD.

Jay, I take no position whatsoever on whether Gen. 15:16 refers to 1948. I simply say that not every instance of "generation" in the Torah should be construed to be one of the seven "ages." Sometimes the word just means the average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring. And Ex. 34:7, Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9, are instances of this. The "generation" in these verses is implied from other Hebrew words involving sonship. You won't find in these verses the actual Hebrew word for generation: תּוֹלְדָה

 

[Wrangler]

It seems to me that you have an axe to grind, and You are only being a troll now.

Just reflecting your sentiments back. I asked questions you didn’t answer. Seems you do not want to examine the validity of your imaginations, as @JohnDB says.

So, not being a troll but not sure the point of you asking questions you’re not open to hearing answers.