Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient

[Hiddenthings]

Although, I can't say anything has been "proven" false.

Well, you do not believe in the common understanding of hell.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Everyone is in error on some point.

Did the Apostles expect truth?

I don't think God cares about that. (within reason)

So why the warnings against apostacy if there are no consequences?

God will work through whom He chooses. (typically those who feel unworthy)

So are you saying entrance is only on the basis of feeling unworthy?

Whether that makes them part of the kingdom or not, I can't say.
In a sense, anyone who acts under the authority of the kingdom is a part. ???
Whether officially or not.

The disciples questioned Jesus about another group casting out demons in His name.
Do you recall His response?

Yes, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.” Luke 10

Again, it feeds into an intelligible hope does it not?

 

[St. SteVen]

Did the Apostles expect truth?

So why the warnings against apostacy if there are no consequences?

So are you saying entrance is only on the basis of feeling unworthy?

The Apostles were flying by the seat of their tunics. Expect truth?
Apostasy is dangerous, but what is it exactly?
God chooses those who feel unworthy, like Moses.

Yes, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.” Luke 10

Again, it feeds into an intelligible hope does it not?

Jesus told the multitudes that they needed to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
Was that intelligible?

[

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Well, you do not believe in the common understanding of hell.

oh I know of it . I also know its wrong. hell and all its conditions comes from the thinking of men . in reality its nothing more than the grave . the big fear of it comes long before anyone dies. which brings us back to lies told to scare people into being nicer to each other .

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Apostles were flying by the seat of their tunics. Expect truth?

Not inspired then? Not in tune with Christ?

Apostasy is dangerous, but what is it exactly?

A falling away from truth seems to be no small matter.

Take, for example, the common belief in hellfire versus what Christ actually taught. Consider the difference between a misled Christian who fears eternal torment and one who understands the true nature of God’s justice and mercy.

These doctrines strike at the very heart of who God is, and who He is not.

So yes, dangerous.

God chooses those who feel unworthy, like Moses.

So are you saying every Christian who believes they are chosen, is chosen?

Jesus told the multitudes that they needed to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
Was that intelligible?

[

What does eating his flesh and drinking his blood mean?

 

[Hiddenthings]

oh I know of it . I also know its wrong. hell and all its conditions comes from the thinking of men . in reality its nothing more than the grave . the big fear of it comes long before anyone dies. which brings us back to lies told to scare people into being nicer to each other .

You are richly blessed to know this truth...many do not!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus told the multitudes that they needed to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
Was that intelligible?

Jesus said he was the living bread, and again, he called himself the true bread.

So the question is: do you recognise the difference between true and false bread? Or are both indistinguishable to you?

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus said he was the living bread, and again, he called himself the true bread.

So the question is: do you recognise the difference between true and false bread? Or are both indistinguishable to you?

With every post you springboard off in another direction.
Are you reading my posts?

If you think I am offering false bread, you should run away.

[

 

[Deleted member 26788]

The Apostles were flying by the seat of their tunics. Expect truth?
Apostasy is dangerous, but what is it exactly?
God chooses those who feel unworthy, like Moses.


Jesus told the multitudes that they needed to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
Was that intelligible?

[

Jesus is not referring to eating flesh or drinking blood literally. He is showing that all who want everlasting life must exercise faith in the sacrifice that he is to make when he offers up his perfect human body and pours out his lifeblood.
Consider it metaphorical.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus is not referring to eating flesh or drinking blood literally. He is showing that all who want everlasting life must exercise faith in the sacrifice that he is to make when he offers up his perfect human body and pours out his lifeblood.
Consider it metaphorical.

I understand that. My point was that those listening to Him in that moment did not. Even the disciples.

John 6:66-68 NIV
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

[

 

[Hiddenthings]

With every post you springboard off in another direction.
Are you reading my posts?

If you think I am offering false bread, you should run away.

[

If, by questioning whether Christ is intelligible, specifically his words about his flesh and blood, you’re implying that he is not, then I’m simply presenting a contrast and testing your questions to see if they hold up to the truth.

Isn’t that what we all do here? We reason according to our own understanding of what truth is. E.g. I agree with @locust on his understanding of hell and the grave. That shows we’ve found common ground on a topic where many Christians are, in our view, in error.

Is there false bread?
Is there true bread?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus is not referring to eating flesh or drinking blood literally. He is showing that all who want everlasting life must exercise faith in the sacrifice that he is to make when he offers up his perfect human body and pours out his lifeblood.
Consider it metaphorical.

We agree again! 2 from 2...the doctrine of transubstantiation is a perversion of what Christ taught.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I understand that. My point was that those listening to Him in that moment did not. Even the disciples.

How many hours have you sat in pews whilst all manner of things were orated, and wondered what it meant?

I must confess that from the womb to this minute I have heard all manner of religious, ecclesiastical, evangelical, pentecostal, charismatic, holiness, and sadly, legalistic and heretical nonsense expounded during the course of church services. Much is white noise now, but the things that Jesus actually taught are firmly imbedded in my mind and soul and spirit, and they are the best things I have been taught, so yes, I'm eating and drinking them up, Hallelujah, Praise the Lord, Amen. Yes, I can clap my hands for the Lord right now.

​

 

[amigo de christo]

they will be grafted back in .

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY for any jew or gentile to be grafted in
AND I HIGHLY SUGGEST WE preach that WAY and that NAME with the upmost dire reminder
THAT ITS HIGH TIME TO BELIEVE ON HIM . JESUS THE CHRIST .
If you think that every single jew according to the flesh will be saved
YOU IN DIRE TROUBLE already .
We aint been reading the entire message paul said .
AND I MIGHT SAVE SOME .
Paul knew , he knew that on the day of judgment
there would be WAILING JEWS and GENTILES .
But NOT ANY that BELEIVED ON JESUS WOULD be wailing .
YOU all keep waiting for this so called end time scenario of what you THINK
is gonna happen .
BUT HERE is what will happen
ON THE DAY OF THE LORD
The dead in Christ shall rise and the beleivers in HIM that are still alive shall be caught up together
BUT at that same time
HE COMETH TO LAY THE ALLMIGHTY WRATH OF GOD ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF
against ALL GENTILES , ALL JEWS that DENIED HIM .
And At the ressurection day
When all jews and gentiles be standing before HIM
MANY JEWS , MANY gentiles
GONNA hear , I NEVER KNEW YOU
LAKE OF FIRE TIME .
SO I KNOW JESUS SAVES . And i know HAGEE and scores of others ONLY DECIEVE .
JESUS PREACHING TIME . BIBLE READING TIME . While there STILL IS TIME .

 

[amigo de christo]

We agree again! 2 from 2...the doctrine of transubstantiation is a perversion of what Christ taught.

This sheep dont follow harlots or A HARLOT .
So my advice to all is
DONT go running to the RCC
dont think the mormon , Jw , and scores of others are the answer OR that we even serve the same GOD
DONT BELIEVE the lips of men who holler
that even muslims , buddists , and etc serve the same GOD WE DO either .
I know the sensual love has taken many and i know they love that broad path idea
BUT ITS ALL PERDITION for them on THE DAY OF THE LORD .
IT IS BIBLE TIME FOR US ALL .

 

[pandaflower]

We'll know, as we are fully known.
The truth isn't a poison, it's the cure.
We'll know the truth, and the truth will set us free.

[

We know the truth now. It only gets better.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We agree again! 2 from 2...the doctrine of transubstantiation is a perversion of what Christ taught.

In 1 Cor. 11:27, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly:

1 Cor. 11:27-30
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol. This directly correlates to the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, where Jesus stated in no uncertain terms:

John 6
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, and MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

The usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”. However, this is NOT the word used in these passages. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, “to munch or to gnaw” - like an animal eats. Jesus was again using hyperbole, as he often did to make His point so that the crowd would understand that he was NOT speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.

Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.
In verse 60, his disciples said,
John 6:60
"This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? NO, He said:
John 6:61
"Does this shock you?"

He knew that some would not believe because they didn't have true faith from the Father.

At the Last Supper – Jesus said:
“This IS my Body” and “This IS my Blood” (Matt. 26:26-30, Luke 22:19-20, Mark 14:22-25, 1 Cor. 11:23-25)

He didn’t say, “This represents my Body” - or, “This symbolizes my Blood.”
He showed them how to consume the Lamb of God sacramentally.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In 1 Cor. 11:27, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly:

1 Cor. 11:27-30
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol. This directly correlates to the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, where Jesus stated in no uncertain terms:

John 6
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, and MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

The usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”. However, this is NOT the word used in these passages. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, “to munch or to gnaw” - like an animal eats. Jesus was again using hyperbole, as he often did to make His point so that the crowd would understand that he was NOT speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.

Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.
In verse 60, his disciples said,
John 6:60
"This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? NO, He said:
John 6:61
"Does this shock you?"

Jesus uses metaphorical language all through his discourse regarding the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood, which, if taken literally, would have broken God’s law.….that is what shocked his Jewish audience. Was he suggesting to them that they were to break God’s law and literally do that?
There is your first mistake. Jesus would never encourage anyone to break the law of his Father….a law that he himself was under.
Jesus uses this metaphorical reference to ‘feeding’ and ‘drinking’ elsewhere, without implying that that eating and food are always physical.

In his prophesy on the time of the end, when he was to return, he said….

Matt 24:36-46…NCB
“As for the exact day and hour, no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. For as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. In the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day that Noah entered the ark. They knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and swept them all away. “That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other will be left. Therefore, keep watch, for you do not know the day when your Lord is coming. Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other will be left. “But keep this in mind: if the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore, you must also be prepared, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. “Who, then, is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has put in charge of his household to give its members their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant if his master finds him doing so when he returns home. Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.”

Who did Jesus appoint to feed his household “their food at the proper time”, prior to his return? Was it physical food or spiritual food? This is slaves feeding their fellow slaves…a responsibility, not an exercise of power.

And what did Jesus say to the Samaritan woman at the well concerning “living water” to drink?

John 4:7-15….NCB
”When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Give me some water to drink.” The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew. How can you ask me, a Samaritan woman, for some water to drink?” (Jews do not share anything in common with Samaritans.) Jesus replied, “If you recognized the gift of God and who it is that is asking you for something to drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks this waterwill be thirsty again. Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob who gave us this well and drank from it himself along with his sons and his cattle?” But whoever drinks the water that I will give himwill never be thirsty. The water that I will give himwill become a spring of water within him welling up to eternal life.” The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I may not be thirsty and have to come here to draw water.”

Was this ”living water” literal or metaphorical?

By suggesting that the flesh and blood of the Christ is transformed into literal “flesh and blood”, God’s law is broken. That should then become something “shocking” to Christians too, unless they have been taught to accept it.

Who taught you that it was OK to do that? And what else have they taught you that is the complete opposite to what Jesus taught?

He knew that some would not believe because they didn't have true faith from the Father.

At the Last Supper – Jesus said:
“This IS my Body” and “This IS my Blood” (Matt. 26:26-30, Luke 22:19-20, Mark 14:22-25, 1 Cor. 11:23-25)

He didn’t say, “This represents my Body” - or, “This symbolizes my Blood.”
He showed them how to consume the Lamb of God sacramentally.

Again, the Lord’s Supper is not to be taken lightly….it is not to be partaken of by those who are not anointed with the holy spirit, as if it was some sort of lucky charm (as Catholic infant baptism seems to be) nor is it to be transformed into something repulsive to Jews and Christians alike. Taken literally, it is “shocking” and so that is how we know that Jesus never meant it that way….his apostles always waited for an explanation if they didn’t understand his words. Which is why Jesus asked them if they were going to leave too?

He explained…..
”After hearing his words, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?” Aware of the complaints of his disciples, Jesus said to them, “Does this shock you? It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh can achieve nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” (John 6:60-63 NCB)

 

[Hiddenthings]

In 1 Cor. 11:27, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly:

1 Cor. 11:27-30
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol. This directly correlates to the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, where Jesus stated in no uncertain terms:

John 6
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, and MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

The usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”. However, this is NOT the word used in these passages. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, “to munch or to gnaw” - like an animal eats. Jesus was again using hyperbole, as he often did to make His point so that the crowd would understand that he was NOT speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.

Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.
In verse 60, his disciples said,
John 6:60
"This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? NO, He said:
John 6:61
"Does this shock you?"

He knew that some would not believe because they didn't have true faith from the Father.

At the Last Supper – Jesus said:
“This IS my Body” and “This IS my Blood” (Matt. 26:26-30, Luke 22:19-20, Mark 14:22-25, 1 Cor. 11:23-25)

He didn’t say, “This represents my Body” - or, “This symbolizes my Blood.”
He showed them how to consume the Lamb of God sacramentally.

Read Jane's post, no point me duplicating what truth has already been said.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@BreadOfLife I'll say one thing....

At the time these words were uttered Jesus was there present with the disciples; he had not yet died.

Sorry.