Is heaven only for Christians? - That's convenient

[Hiddenthings]

Just out of interest, @BreadOfLife — do you interpret “the cup” in the same literal way? When Jesus said, “This cup is the new covenant,” does that mean the physical cup somehow becomes the literal covenant?

@Aunty Jane, can you see how easy it is to misread a symbol and impose a literal meaning on what is clearly intended to be figurative?

When the ability to rightly interpret Scripture is lacking, it can lead not to light and understanding, but to confusion and potentially harmful beliefs.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Lord's Supper is a commemoration of a sacrifice, not a repetition of it. Heb 10:10; Heb 7:27

 

[Marvelloustime]

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY for any jew or gentile to be grafted in
AND I HIGHLY SUGGEST WE preach that WAY and that NAME with the upmost dire reminder
THAT ITS HIGH TIME TO BELIEVE ON HIM . JESUS THE CHRIST .
If you think that every single jew according to the flesh will be saved
YOU IN DIRE TROUBLE already .
We aint been reading the entire message paul said .
AND I MIGHT SAVE SOME .
Paul knew , he knew that on the day of judgment
there would be WAILING JEWS and GENTILES .
But NOT ANY that BELEIVED ON JESUS WOULD be wailing .
YOU all keep waiting for this so called end time scenario of what you THINK
is gonna happen .
BUT HERE is what will happen
ON THE DAY OF THE LORD
The dead in Christ shall rise and the beleivers in HIM that are still alive shall be caught up together
BUT at that same time
HE COMETH TO LAY THE ALLMIGHTY WRATH OF GOD ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF
against ALL GENTILES , ALL JEWS that DENIED HIM .
And At the ressurection day
When all jews and gentiles be standing before HIM
MANY JEWS , MANY gentiles
GONNA hear , I NEVER KNEW YOU
LAKE OF FIRE TIME .
SO I KNOW JESUS SAVES . And i know HAGEE and scores of others ONLY DECIEVE .
JESUS PREACHING TIME . BIBLE READING TIME . While there STILL IS TIME .

@amigo de christo

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus uses metaphorical language all through his discourse regarding the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood, which, if taken literally, would have broken God’s law.….that is what shocked his Jewish audience. Was he suggesting to them that they were to break God’s law and literally do that?
There is your first mistake. Jesus would never encourage anyone to break the law of his Father….a law that he himself was under.
Jesus uses this metaphorical reference to ‘feeding’ and ‘drinking’ elsewhere, without implying that that eating and food are always physical.

In his prophesy on the time of the end, when he was to return, he said….

Matt 24:36-46…NCB
thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore, you must also be prepared, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. “Who, then, is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has put in charge of his household to give its members their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant if his master finds him doing so when he returns home. Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.”

Who did Jesus appoint to feed his household “their food at the proper time”, prior to his return? Was it physical food or spiritual food? This is slaves feeding their fellow slaves…a responsibility, not an exercise of power.

And what did Jesus say to the Samaritan woman at the well concerning “living water” to drink?

John 4:7-15….NCB


Was this ”living water” literal or metaphorical?

By suggesting that the flesh and blood of the Christ is transformed into literal “flesh and blood”, God’s law is broken. That should then become something “shocking” to Christians too, unless they have been taught to accept it.

Who taught you that it was OK to do that? And what else have they taught you that is the complete opposite to what Jesus taught?

Again, the Lord’s Supper is not to be taken lightly….it is not to be partaken of by those who are not anointed with the holy spirit, as if it was some sort of lucky charm (as Catholic infant baptism seems to be) nor is it to be transformed into something repulsive to Jews and Christians alike. Taken literally, it is “shocking” and so that is how we know that Jesus never meant it that way….his apostles always waited for an explanation if they didn’t understand his words. Which is why Jesus asked them if they were going to leave too?

He explained…..
”After hearing his words, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard saying. Who can accept it?” Aware of the complaints of his disciples, Jesus said to them, “Does this shock you? It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh can achieve nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” (John 6:60-63 NCB)

There is a BIG difference here between the metaphorical verses like Matt 24:36-46 and the literal language of John 6. You have to use context and common sense- not just assumptions about “metaphors”.

In Matt 24:36-46 and John 4:7-15 – we don’t see doubts. We don’t see questions. We don’t see disciples abandoning Jesus for this teaching. In fact – John 6 marks the ONLY time in ALL of the NT that His disciples walked away from Him for theological reasons.

Why is it that on other occasions when Jesus spoke metaphorically – he explained what He meant when asked by His disciples (Matt. 13:10-11, Luke 8:11-15, Mark 4:10-12)? Why did He NOT explain away this “metaphor” in John 6.

Answer: Because He meant what He said. This time, He simply asked them, “Do you also want to leave?”

Why would Jesus ask the Twelve this question if He was only speaking metaphorically? They were there for every one of His sermons and miracles. They had been told that HE was “living Water”. They had just witnessed Him feeding 5000 people with 5 loves and 2 fish.

If we are to believe that Jesus didn’t mean what He said – we have to accept that –
- Jesus didn’t care that MOST of His disciples abandoned Him
- He didn’t care that the Twelve were also left in a state of confusion.

John 6:60-63
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Translation:
"The Holy Spirit gives life to what I am telling you and who enlightens you. Your human way of rationalizing what I am telling you is of NO help. What I’m telling you is from the Holy Spirit."

He does NOT say:
"The Holy Spirit gives life to what I am telling you and who enlightens you. MY is of NO help. What I’m telling you is only symbolic.”

THIS is why He follows up with:
John 6:65
“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

You can’t have faith unless it has been GIVEN to you.

No – the context of Paul’s words here in 1 Cor.11 are about a divided and sinful congregation – some of whom aren’t even teaching truth. In the First century document, the Didache (Teachings of the Twelve apostles), we see a correlation between this text and Paul’s words. The faithful are advised to confess their sins before receiving the Lord’s Supper:

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.

This is exactly what Paul is telling the Corinthans. They are NOT prepared to receive this Lord in the Eucharist because of they sin of their divisions and pride. Herll ytelklks them that this is why some of them are sick and dying (1 Cor 11:30).

WHY would people be sick and dying over a pice of bread and some wine??
Answer: Because it is MUCH, much more. It is LIFE . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just out of interest, @BreadOfLife — do you interpret “the cup” in the same literal way? When Jesus said, “This cup is the new covenant,” does that mean the physical cup somehow becomes the literal covenant?

@Aunty Jane, can you see how easy it is to misread a symbol and impose a literal meaning on what is clearly intended to be figurative?

When the ability to rightly interpret Scripture is lacking, it can lead not to light and understanding, but to confusion and potentially harmful beliefs.

That’s a silly question – and very ignorant.

In every mention of a “cup” in Scripture – it is virtually ALWAYS talking about the CONTENS of the cup – and NOT the dish . . .

The Passover meal was celebrated with accompanied by 4 cups. Jesus didn’t drink from the fourth cup of the Passover meal. He refused to drink wine until he came into his Kingdom (Matt. 26:29).

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Lord's Supper is a commemoration of a sacrifice, not a repetition of it. Heb 10:10; Heb 7:27

First of all - "Comemoration" or "Remembrance" doesn't necessarily mean "Symbolic".
It's a Re-presenteation of the ONCE-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

We read in Scripture that although His sacrifice happened ONCE in OUR time - it is an ETERNAL sacrifice (Rom. 8:34, Rev. 5:6). We are brought to Calvary at every mass when the Euxharist os celebrated..

He is not "Re-sacrificed". We are experiencing His eternal sacrifice in the only way we can as humans because we are bound by time - and He is not.

 

[Hiddenthings]

First of all - "Comemoration" or "Remembrance" doesn't necessarily mean "Symbolic".
It's a Re-presenteation of the ONCE-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

We read in Scripture that although His sacrifice happened ONCE in OUR time - it is an ETERNAL sacrifice (Rom. 8:34, Rev. 5:6). We are brought to Calvary at every mass when the Euxharist os celebrated..

He is not "Re-sacrificed". We are experiencing His eternal sacrifice in the only way we can as humans because we are bound by time - and He is not.

You are flogging a dead horse on this subject. He shared symbols while he was alive! Just accept and move on.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why is it that on other occasions when Jesus spoke metaphorically – he explained what He meant when asked by His disciples (Matt. 13:10-11, Luke 8:11-15, Mark 4:10-12)? Why did He NOT explain away this “metaphor” in John 6.

Answer: Because He meant what He said. This time, He simply asked them, “Do you also want to leave?”

This was the first time he had spoken words that were offensive to them and to his audience. The apostles saw others walk away in disgust, and they were confused….they didn’t know what to think. So Jesus waited for a response.

Why would Jesus ask the Twelve this question if He was only speaking metaphorically? They were there for every one of His sermons and miracles. They had been told that HE was “living Water”. They had just witnessed Him feeding 5000 people with 5 loves and 2 fish.

If we are to believe that Jesus didn’t mean what He said – we have to accept that –
- Jesus didn’t care that MOST of His disciples abandoned Him
- He didn’t care that the Twelve were also left in a state of confusion.

As the scripture you quoted below affirms, “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.”

Who was Jesus referring to as the ‘unbeliever’?…..it was Judas.

His words were “spirit and life”, not to be taken literally, because if taken literally, Jesus would be advocating something God’s Law forbade. Would he ever do that?
He was testing them out and Peter’s response was exactly what he wanted to hear….

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them: “I chose you twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer.” 71 He was, in fact, speaking of Judas the son of Simon Is·carʹi·ot, for this one was going to betray him, although he was one of the Twelve.”

John 6:60-63
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Because Jesus said that “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”, we can rest assured that not a single person who merits salvation will be promoting false worship, or will be in the company of those who think they can mock God and disobey his Christ with impunity.

The apostasy that Jesus and his apostles foretold, took place a very long time ago, as they told us that it was “already ar work” in the last days of the Jewish system, escalating towards the end of the first century. (2 Thess 2:1-3; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 Tim 4:1-3)
What arose out of that apostasy and eventually spread to the rest of the world by forced conversion at the point of the sword, was Roman Catholicism. Such evil as cannot be practiced by any follower of Christ was the result of the abuse of power that the church gained even over world rulers.…who would hesitate to make a decision without consulting them.
So much for being “no part of the world”. (John 18:36) Fulfilling what Jesus said that the false religion created by the devil, would have “a kingdom over the kings of the earth”….and they did, all through human history….and in some nations, they still do.

The power of the Roman church hierarchy even to this day, is seen in a lack of Christian conduct. Power corrupts, which is why the Christianity practiced by the first Christians was without priests and popes. There was no such thing as “clergy and laity” divisions in the congregations. Those “taking the lead” were not to exert power over the flock, but to “shepherd” them. (1 Peter 5:1-3) They did not dress in distinctive garb to distinguish themselves from their charges, but to be one with them in humble service.…fellow slaves. Is that what we see in the RCC?
Did Jesus or his apostles dress Ike this?


Where does this form of dress originate? Did Jesus wear these kinds of robes to distinguish himself, even though he was the son of God? Did the apostles wear distinctive clothing? Where does the headgear originate? This is not Christianity!

Why is false religion (“Babylon the great”) spoken of as a harlot dressed in purple and scarlet? (Rev 17:3-6)

You will have a hard time explaining these things scripturally….

 

[Hiddenthings]

@BreadOfLife come out from her!

 

[Hiddenthings]

it is an ETERNAL sacrifice (Rom. 8:34, Rev. 5:6).

Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died, more than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Romans 8:34

One time sacrifice and now intercedes for his people.

And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth Rev 5:6

This is, without question, one of the most dramatic images in the entire Apocalypse, a resurrected Lamb! Imagine John’s astonishment: he is told that the Lion of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed, yet when he looks, he sees not a lion, but a Lamb. A Lamb that had been slain, but now stands alive. This powerful image represents the victory over sin's flesh.

The symbolism teaches a profound spiritual lesson: if we would reign, we must first serve; and to serve faithfully, we must overcome the pull of the flesh. The Greek word used here deepens the imagery. It is arnion, meaning "little lamb" or lambkin—a diminutive form of amnos, the word used for “Lamb” in passages like John 1:29, 36; Acts 8:32; and 1 Peter 1:19.

Bread, I'm interested if you have any other verses which state his death was eternal death?

Thanks

 

[BreadOfLife]

This was the first time he had spoken words that were offensive to them and to his audience. The apostles saw others walk away in disgust, and they were confused….they didn’t know what to think. So Jesus waited for a response.

And WHAT was it that was so offensive??
That Jesus told them they had to EAT His flesh and DRINK His blood.

And He told them other things that would be “offensive” to some of them like. “Love your enemies” and “Forgive those who sin against you.”

Telling them to “symbolically eat” His Word wouldn’t have been offensive.

As the scripture you quoted below affirms, “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.”

Who was Jesus referring to as the ‘unbeliever’?…..it was Judas.

WRONG.
In verse 64 – He is referring to the crowd that rejected His teaching.

He didn‘t refer to Judas until verse70.

His words were “spirit and life”, not to be taken literally, because if taken literally, Jesus would be advocating something God’s Law forbade. Would he ever do that?
He was testing them out and Peter’s response was exactly what he wanted to hear….

“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them: “I chose you twelve, did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer.” 71 He was, in fact, speaking of Judas the son of Simon Is·carʹi·ot, for this one was going to betray him, although he was one of the Twelve.”

WRONG again.

God’s Law forbade the consumption of the blood of an animal because the life of the animal is the blood. You are NOT to have the life of an animal in you. HOWEVER – WHOSE life DO we want in us?

The flesh (yours and mine) profits nothing.
Jesus’s body and blood profits EVERYTHING for us.

Because Jesus said that “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”, we can rest assured that not a single person who merits salvation will be promoting false worship, or will be in the company of those who think they can mock God and disobey his Christ with impunity.

The apostasy that Jesus and his apostles foretold, took place a very long time ago, as they told us that it was “already ar work” in the last days of the Jewish system, escalating towards the end of the first century. (2 Thess 2:1-3; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 1 Tim 4:1-3)
What arose out of that apostasy and eventually spread to the rest of the world by forced conversion at the point of the sword, was Roman Catholicism. Such evil as cannot be practiced by any follower of Christ was the result of the abuse of power that the church gained even over world rulers.…who would hesitate to make a decision without consulting them.
So much for being “no part of the world”. (John 18:36) Fulfilling what Jesus said that the false religion created by the devil, would have “a kingdom over the kings of the earth”….and they did, all through human history….and in some nations, they still do.

The apostasy that was happening at the time of the Apostles were the Gnostics (1 Tim. 4) and the Judaizers (Acts 15). The Catholic Church existed from the First century and was being written about by Apostolic Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch – a disciple of the Apostle John:

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are flogging a dead horse on this subject. He shared symbols while he was alive! Just accept and move on.

Then, address why Paul wrote the dire warnings of sickness and death over something that is just a “symbol”.

Address the Didache, which echoes Paul’s admonishment.

Explain why the doctrine of the Eucharist is one practiced for over 2000 years since the FIRST century.

Explain why the pagans accused the Early Christians of “cannibalism” for eating their Savior.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Then, address why Paul wrote the dire warnings of sickness and death over something that is just a “symbol”.

Address the Didache, which echoes Paul’s admonishment.

Explain why the doctrine of the Eucharist is one practiced for over 2000 years since the FIRST century.

Explain why the pagans accused the Early Christians of “cannibalism” for eating their Savior.

Are you an angry person by nature? You seem unreasonable and your caps and bold large text send that message.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And WHAT was it that was so offensive??
That Jesus told them they had to EAT His flesh and DRINK His blood.

And He told them other things that would be “offensive” to some of them like. “Love your enemies” and “Forgive those who sin against you.”

Telling them to “symbolically eat” His Word wouldn’t have been offensive.

Where was ‘telling them to love their enemies, and to forgive those who sin against them’, breaking God’s law, whereas the eating of human flesh and the drinking of any kind of blood violated his law and carried the death penalty. When has canabalism ever been tolerated among God’s people? It is repugnant and any who are not repulsed by that notion are brainwashed.

In verse 64 – He is referring to the crowd that rejected His teaching.

He didn‘t refer to Judas until verse70.

Read it again….
”It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh can achieve nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some among you who do not believe.” For from the very beginning Jesus knew who did not believe, and who would betray him.”

Some in the crowd he was addressing had been fed miraculously the previous day and yet still demanded a sign from him. Jesus knew who among them was only interested in his miracles, and who was wanting to accept his teachings as the son of God…the promised Messiah.

Judas was not among those “unbelievers”, because his betrayal was way more serious than simple rejection of Jesus as the Christ…..he was one of the 12 and a partaker of Holy Spirit in the performance of miracles in Jesus’ name…..and therefore he committed the unforgivable sin in leading the mob to Jesus. His suicide shows that he realized this.

God’s Law forbade the consumption of the blood of an animal because the life of the animal is the blood. You are NOT to have the life of an animal in you. HOWEVER – WHOSE life DO we want in us?

God’s law forbade the consumption of “the blood of any flesh”.

Lev 17:13-14….NCB.
”Whoever from among the children of Israel or from among the aliens living in your midst hunts or catches a beast or a bird that can be eaten, let him pour out its blood and cover it with dust for it is the life of all flesh. The blood is its life. Therefore, I said to the children of Israel, ‘You will eat no blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is in the blood. Whoever eats it will be cut off.’”

The flesh (yours and mine) profits nothing.
Jesus’s body and blood profits EVERYTHING for us.

Yes, his body and his blood were sacrificed on our behalf only once…..but to memorialize that act of love by literally drinking his blood and eating his flesh is repulsive to any normal human being…unless they have been conditioned to accept it. You sacrifice the Christ all over again every time you take the bread and wine.
Who told you that was the right thing to do?….not Jesus or the apostles.

The apostasy that was happening at the time of the Apostles were the Gnostics (1 Tim. 4) and the Judaizers (Acts 15). The Catholic Church existed from the First century and was being written about by Apostolic Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch – a disciple of the Apostle John

I have little interest in writings of the “church fathers” because not a word spoken by them made it into Scripture. The apostasy was “already at work” when they lived….and things only went downhill from then on. Judas had Jesus as his teacher too….did he stick to that? It is apparent that those from the second century onward continued to spread that apostasy…and still do.

The Bible is my only source of truth and that explains why the RCC refuses to accept all that it teaches.
Your infallible leader can eliminate anything he wants from scripture if it disagrees with the traditions of the church…..something Jesus castigated the Pharisees for…..(Matt 15:7-9)

You have no scriptural grounds for you beliefs…..

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where was ‘telling them to love their enemies, and to forgive those who sin against them’, breaking God’s law,

I never said it was.

YOU stated that This was the first time Jesus said something that was offensive to them. I pointed out that telling them to love their enemies and forgive their tormentors was offensive to some.

whereas the eating of human flesh and the drinking of any kind of blood violated his law and carried the death penalty. When has canabalism ever been tolerated among God’s people? It is repugnant and any who are not repulsed by that notion are brainwashed.

As I already pointed out - the prohibition against consuming the blood of an animal was that the blood was the LIFE. You shall not have the LIFE of the animal in you.
As Christians – we want to have the LIFE of Jesus in us.

The WHOLE point here in John 6 is that you had TWO factions:
a) Those who rejected and distrusted what Jesus was telling them.
b) Those who trusted what He was telling them would be revealed to them at some point. That is exactly what Jesus did at the Last Supper.

He showed them the sacramental way to consume the Lamb of God.

Read it again….
”It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh can achieve nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some among you who do not believe.” For from the very beginning Jesus knew who did not believe, and who would betray him.”

Some in the crowd he was addressing had been fed miraculously the previous day and yet still demanded a sign from him. Jesus knew who among them was only interested in his miracles, and who was wanting to accept his teachings as the son of God…the promised Messiah.

Judas was not among those “unbelievers”, because his betrayal was way more serious than simple rejection of Jesus as the Christ…..he was one of the 12 and a partaker of Holy Spirit in the performance of miracles in Jesus’ name…..and therefore he committed the unforgivable sin in leading the mob to Jesus. His suicide shows that he realized this.

Sure – I agree.
I was just letting you know that this whole episode in John 6 had to do with the unbelievers in the crowd – NOT Judas.

Judas is only mentioned in verses 70-71, and only after Peter’s confession.

God’s law forbade the consumption of “the blood of any flesh”.

For the reason that I have already explained - twice . . .

Yes, his body and his blood were sacrificed on our behalf only once…..but to memorialize that act of love by literally drinking his blood and eating his flesh is repulsive to any normal human being…unless they have been conditioned to accept it. You sacrifice the Christ all over again every time you take the bread and wine.
Who told you that was the right thing to do?….not Jesus or the apostles.

This is yet another anti-Catholic LIE that is perpetuated by those who have NO interest in knowing the truth.

Jesus is not “re-sacrificed”. As I have already explained – His is an ETERNAL sacrifice (Heb. 7:25, Rev. 5:6). We are brought to Calvary at every Mass during the celebration of the Eucharist.

I have little interest in writings of the “church fathers” because not a word spoken by them made it into Scripture. The apostasy was “already at work” when they lived….and things only went downhill from then on. Judas had Jesus as his teacher too….did he stick to that? It is apparent that those from the second century onward continued to spread that apostasy…and still do.

What happened to Christians in the first 300 years of the Church who didn’t have a Bible? WHO told you that the New Testament was the Word of God?
The fact is that the Catholic Church goes ALL the way back to the Apostles - and can document this fact.

If this is NOT the case – can YOU document the “real” Church from the first century?
I’ll wait right here for your well-researched response . . .

The Bible is my only source of truth

Please show me where the BIBLE says that the Bible is our "only" source of truth.
Chapter and Verse, please . . .

PS - MY Bible says that the CHURCH is -
- The Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

and that explains why the RCC refuses to accept all that it teaches.
Your infallible leader can eliminate anything he wants from scripture if it disagrees with the traditions of the church…..something Jesus castigated the Pharisees for…..(Matt 15:7-9)

Another ignorant, anti-Catholic falsehood . . .

It might interest you to know that EVERY paragraph of the Catechism is backed up with VOLUMES of Scripture.

You have no scriptural grounds for you beliefs…..

On the contrary – I have presented Scriptural support for every point I’ve made . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you an angry person by nature? You seem unreasonable and your caps and bold large text send that message.

Sooooo, when you can’t address the points I make – you attack my formatting??

Just admit that you that you’re stumped and we’ll move on . . .

 

[Aunty Jane]

YOU stated that This was the first time Jesus said something that was offensive to them. I pointed out that telling them to love their enemies and forgive their tormentors was offensive to some.

The offence was saying something spiritual and it being taken literally, which was breaking God’s law. That is what was offensive.....how on earth can you equate such a thing with ‘loving their enemies’ or forgiving them? At the time when Jesus walked the earth Israel was in a very poor state spiritually, and they were under the domination of a foreign world power whose religion was abhorrent to them.....but they were teaching “the command of men as doctrines”......the church of today is doing the exact same thing.
The Jews had skewed a lot of things scripturally, but consuming blood was not one of them.

In time the corrupted church got into bed with that enemy and embraced his false religion…..imposed by state mandate on the whole empire. Any church that declares a nationality is a false church….Christianity has no nationality.

As I already pointed out - the prohibition against consuming the blood of an animal was that the blood was the LIFE. You shall not have the LIFE of the animal in you.
As Christians – we want to have the LIFE of Jesus in us.

That is so twisted....God’s law said not to consume ”any sort of blood”.....and it meant what it said. Consuming animal’s blood was something Jews would not do.....so consuming human blood for the Jewish Christians would be especially repulsive. But to the gentiles, not so much as they were used to consuming blood in their diet and since the majority of Christians from the first century onward were gentiles, perhaps the old habits came back and didn’t look so wrong when it was suggested that Christ’s blood could be consumed without penalty In this ritual.
The apostles command to the gentile Christians was clear…they were not to consume blood in any way. (Acts 15:28-29)

This is yet another anti-Catholic LIE that is perpetuated by those who have NO interest in knowing the truth.

Jesus is not “re-sacrificed”. As I have already explained – His is an ETERNAL sacrifice (Heb. 7:25, Rev. 5:6). We are brought to Calvary at every Mass during the celebration of the Eucharist.

Look at your last sentence....is that where God wants his people to be? Still at the place where Jesus gave his life, beaten and battered? Is that how we are to remember the Christ? His resurrection three days later facilitated his return to heaven 40 days later, during which time he encouraged his disciples and strengthened them for the rough road ahead.
Jesus is not the dead man hanging on an execution stake, nor is he a helpless baby in a manger…he is the conquering King of his Father’s Kingdom….soon to show the world that his Father’s worship is not to be substituted with the doctrines of men.

The Lord’s supper replaced the Passover for Christ’s Jewish disciples, because he was symbolised by the Passover Lamb. The Passover was a yearly commemoration of Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, and so on the same night, Jews to this day hold that commemoration, but for Christians there was no command to hold it weekly or daily, but to follow the pattern set by the Jews in a yearly holding of all their festivals and annual observances. The only weekly observance was the Sabbath which was not incumbent on Gentile Christians. (Acts 15:28-29)

PS - MY Bible says that the CHURCH is -
- The Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

What gives you the idea that the Roman Catholic church is the one Jesus spoke about?

He also taught that the devil would sow “weeds” in the world that would take over the majority who profess to be Christians. But calling yourself a Christian does not make you one, as Jesus himself will demonstrate when the judgment comes. “Few” will be granted life....which means the majority will not.

“Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and those who find it are few in number. . . . .
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not perform many miracles in your name?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers!’” (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23 NCB)

If the foretold apostasy was “already at work” by the end of the first century, then from the second century onwards, the rot would just continue once the restraining power of the apostles was ”removed”.

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who restrains it will continue to do so until he is removed. Then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him by the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming. His coming will be the work of Satan made manifest in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and in every wicked deception designed for those who are perishing because they refused to accept the love of the truth and thereby gain salvation. For this reason, God imposes on them a powerful delusion. They believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but instead have taken pleasure in wickedness will be condemned.” (2 Thess 2: 7-12 NCB)

No one can erase the disgusting conduct of the Roman church in its approach to idolatrous worship and the bloodshed it has supported down through the centuries. (Exodus 20:4-5; Isaiah 1:15)

[quote ]It might interest you to know that EVERY paragraph of the Catechism is backed up with VOLUMES of Scripture.[/quote]
Since when do we need a catechism to replace the Bible? Down through the years, as I have witnessed to Catholic people and asked them to get their Bible so that I could show them Scriptural proof that what they accepted as truth, was in fact, false....9 times out of 10 they would bring out a chatechism....they really didn’t know the difference.
The Jews did the same thing with the Talmud.....it was the “Jewish” explanation of Scripture, just as the catechism is the Catholic explanation of Scripture. I reject their explanation out of hand because I have studied the Bible extensively for many years. And those who came out of the Catholic Faith and studied the Bible for themselves, found comfort in the elimination of all those false doctrines as well as its blatant idolatry.

On the contrary – I have presented Scriptural support for every point I’ve made . . .

You have presented the Catholic explanation and interpretation of Scripture, and promoted your church as the one who teaches Scriptural truth.....according to scripture, they are not even close.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’ll tackle this one separately….

What happened to Christians in the first 300 years of the Church who didn’t have a Bible? WHO told you that the New Testament was the Word of God?
The fact is that the Catholic Church goes ALL the way back to the Apostles - and can document this fact.

If this is NOT the case – can YOU document the “real” Church from the first century?
I’ll wait right here for your well-researched response . . .

History tells the story.....the apostolic succession that you rely on to support your pope and his hierarchy did not exist in the first century church. All the apostles had equal status, none were given a leadership role.
And according to Revelation, the church that Christ founded had 12 foundation stones….all equals. (Rev 21:12-14)

Jesus’ words at Matt 16:18-19 in the Catholic Douay Bible reads: “I say to thee: That thou art Peter, (petros) and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.”
Does this mean, as the Roman Catholic Church claims, that Jesus appointed Peter the head of his church and the first pope?

Reading those words in Greek we see that the RCC has conflated the words “petros” and “petra”..... as though they are one and the same word....not so.
Peter (petros) means a small pebble, whereas “petra” means a solid rock mass….they are not the same at all.
So right from the get go, your apostolic succession hits a wall, because Peter was given responsibilities, but never leadership.

Where does the pope’s title “Pontiff” come from? I’ll give you a clue…it wasn’t from the first Christians….

Where does Mary get her titles from?….same place.

Who told us that the NT was the word of God? Are you serious? This is the excuse you give for preaching a false gospel? If “all Scripture” is not “inspired of God” then we have been hoodwinked and the Bible as it stands today is a fake! Do you really think that a church with such a disgusting history can possibly represent Christ and his apostles?
Did the Bible come from the Catholic Church, or only by means of them when it was God’s time to give it to the world?…….the church did it’s darndest to keep God’s word out of the hands of the common people….which created the ignorance for which your church members are noted.
The one thing that the Reformation accomplished was getting the Bible into the hands of the people so that they could judge for themselves if the church was telling the truth. It’s power was crushed and God’s word revealed all it’s false doctrines. It’s fall from grace was monumental.

Where does your pope get his authority? The Vatican is a cess pit of vipers, drunk with power, and not averse to getting rid of those who don’t conform to their agenda, or who advocate for change.

Did Christ live in a palace with gold trimmings? Did he have disciples around him in distinctive clothing and high sounding titles? Did he promote the doctrines taught in the Catholic church?
None are found in Scripture…not a one.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Sooooo, when you can’t address the points I make – you attack my formatting??

Just admit that you that you’re stumped and we’ll move on . . .

You haven’t really made any valid points.

Jesus shared the emblems of bread and wine while he was still alive, before his death.

Also, it’s good to see you’ve dialed back the formatting a bit!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You haven’t really made any valid points.
Jesus shared the emblems of bread and wine while he was still alive, before his death.

Actually, I’ve made PLENTY – and you haven’t been able to refute ANY of them.
Remember - denial is not refutation . . .

Also, it’s good to see you’ve dialed back the formatting a bit!

You really need to get over this.

Maybe, do some actual homework about the subject . . .