Is Ignorance Bliss?

[Matthias]

Yes, my friend

In the parable of the talents, no one is left without a talent.

The servant who was given one talent didn’t do anything with it. When the master returned and called the servant to give an account, the servant had done nothing with it. The talent is taken from the wicked servant and given to a good servant. That’s not the end of the parable. What does the master command be done with the wicked servant himself?

”Throw out the unprofitable servant servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

(Matthew 25:30, WEB)

The wicked and useless servant is cast out of God’s household, doesn’t inherit the kingdom of God, has his place in the darkness, where he will weep and lash out against the one God and the Messiah.

No man is deprived of the gifts of God, or the grace of God necessary to multiply those gifts. One of those gifts is the basic notion of good and evil (and sometimes, not so "basic". Pagan people could have very advanced notions of good and evil. Plato could have had a notion far advanced from a peasant Israelite of the same time period... or from some modern believers)

 

[Matthias]

I agree, when the preaching reflects the character of Jesus, as a lamp illuminating the world.
But Jesus does not preach through all preachers. If a preacher preaches evil, that cannot be Jesus.
How can a preacher preach evil? Well, not only by words, but by example. Our lives are the content of our preaching.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name,... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why should the lady from Fiji feel encouraged to listen a sermon about the Bible, if she has noticed that the missionary who is inviting her to listen does that opposite of what is good?
If the salt of the earth have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It has become good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

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invite

If the lady responds to the wrong preacher she will be on the path that leads to destruction in the lake of fire.

 

[Matthias]

“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of light, it was the season of darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.” - Charles Dickens

When someone who isn’t a disciple of Jesus meets a disciple of Jesus it is [insert Charles Dickens quote] for the person who is not yet a disciple of Jesus.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That’s a specious ‘if.’ One rationalization for it would be the more smoking is promoted, the more SOME people are attracted to it DUE TO some perversion of their ego. Can you think of another explanation?

I do not believe it is wise to develop a moral guide based on how the irrational exceptions might respond.

I don't know of any study that shows that making people aware of the connection between smoking and lung cancer has increased the risk of cancer.

I used this example in the context of a preacher convinced that being unaware of doctrine X keeps the person in a better position for salvation that becoming aware and rejecting it. In this case, the possible courses of action are:

1. Do not preach that doctrine, or
2. Preach the doctrine, but not as a requirement for salvation

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The servant who was given one talent didn’t do anything with it. When the master returned and called the servant to give an account, the servant had done nothing with it. The talent is taken from the wicked servant and given to a good servant. That’s not the end of the parable. What does the master command be done with the wicked servant himself?

”Throw out the unprofitable servant servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

(Matthew 25:30, WEB)

The wicked and useless servant is cast out of God’s household, doesn’t inherit the kingdom of God, has his place in the darkness, where he will weep and lash out against the one God and the Messiah.

Yes, indeed.

The old lady from ancient Fiji who got only one talent, is expected to do the right thing with that talent.
The young girl from rural India who got only one talent, is expected to do the right thing with that talent.
If they fail to do it, they will be held accountable, just as you will be held accountable with the ten talents I got from having had the opportunity to know the Bible and some theology.

The people of Israel were the ones getting 10 talents. Nordic people of that time perhaps had received one talent.
Yet, God held all of them accountable for their deeds.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If the lady responds to the wrong preacher she will be on the path that leads to destruction in the lake of fire.

God would make such lady accountable because God had given her the insight to know that the preacher was false, and yet she followed him.

 

[Matthias]

God would make such lady accountable because God had given her the insight to know that the preacher was false, and yet she followed him.

Express lane to the lake of fire.

 

[Matthias]

“Divisions within the Church can sometimes tempt Christians to abandon doctrine altogether. Today, R.C. Sproul earnestly charges us to never forsake the doctrines of the Christian faith.”

Doctrine Matters

Divisions within the church can sometimes tempt Christians to abandon doctrine altogether. Today, R.C. Sproul earnestly charges us to never forsake the doctrines of the Christian faith.

www.ligonier.org

The man hits the nail on the head. I agree with him and yet, were he alive today, he would agree with me that his “Christian faith” and my “Christian faith” are not the same “Christian faith” and that there are serious repercussions for that.

He didn’t define the Christian faith as I define the Christian faith. (See post #15.)

 

[Matthias]

Yes, indeed.

The old lady from ancient Fiji who got only one talent, is expected to do the right thing with that talent.

The parable concerns disciples of Jesus, not a little old lady in Fiji 5,000 years ago who wasn’t a disciple of Jesus.

This parable is about disciples of Jesus who prove themselves good or wicked, worthy or unworthy, saved into the kingdom or cast out into darkness.

What they do is a reflection of what they know and believe. Once saved, always saved falls at this point.

One has to know the truth; it is the truth that sets people free. But it has never been enough just to hear and know the truth (James 1:22-25). (Even the demons know the truth, and their disobedience has ensured their destruction.) The obedience of the true faith is required.

The young girl from rural India who got only one talent, is expected to do the right thing with that talent.

If the young girl is not a disciple of Jesus then the parable isn’t about her. If she is a worshiper of Vishnu, then she is not a disciple of Jesus.

If they fail to do it, they will be held accountable, just as you will be held accountable with the ten talents I got from having had the opportunity to know the Bible and some theology.

The people of Israel were the ones getting 10 talents. Nordic people of that time perhaps had received one talent.
Yet, God held all of them accountable for their deeds.

This is a Baha’i interpretation, not a disciple of Jesus interpretation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That is what the one God sent Jesus to do and that is what Jesus sends his disciples to do.

When anyone is confronted with the doctrine / teaching of the one God the risk to the confronted one is great as is the reward. It is a matter of life or death importance. A choice has to be made.

Jesus declared that He was sent to the world to save the world, not to condemn it.
The Gospel is Good News for salvation. Otherwise it would be no gospel at all.

If Reverend Taylor knows a young educated man who verbally abuses his grandma systematically, and he preaches Christ to him, it is because Rev Taylor is convinced that such preaching will increase his chance of the young man recognizing his sin, repenting and stopping the verbal abuse against her grandma, becoming a loving grandson. It will decrease his chance of remaining in his sin and remaining in hell. So, the young man is facing a matter of life or death.

In contrast, the propositions that Jesus resurrected physically, or preexisted, or was God, or performed a substitutionary atonement, or that the Bible is inerrant, have no impact on whether the young man will repent, stop bullying his grandma, and become a loving grandson. All the contrary: by being doctrines that cannot be proved by reason, or proved to be connected with the change he needs, are just an opportunity for rejection on rational grounds.

So, Reverend Taylor has two possible consistent courses of action:

1. Stop preaching those doctrines, as that would increase the chances of the young educated man to be damned
2. Preach those doctrines, but not as a requisite to enjoy the transformative power of the grace of God. Teach them as a complement to the core doctrines that will impact his chances for salvation, once those core doctrines have been embedded in the young man's heart.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

One has to know the truth; it is the truth that sets people free. But it has never been enough just to hear and know the truth (James 1:22-25). (Even the demons know the truth, and their disobedience has ensured their destruction.) The obedience of the true faith is required.

A person can obey the doctrine of loving his neighbor, taught by Jesus Christ.

How can a person obey the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of Christ?
How can a person obey the doctrine of substitutionary atonement?
How can a person obey the doctrine of biblical inerrancy in facts of science or history?

If a doctrine cannot be obeyed, it is because it does not imply a change in practice. Then, it is not a requirement for salvation.
Salvation is about living as a saved person. Otherwise, it is self-deception.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus declared that He was sent to the world to save the world, not to condemn it.

That was at his first coming. The world is now condemned by him. Come out of the world. It is going to be destroyed when he returns.

The Gospel is Good News for salvation. Otherwise it would be no gospel at all.

It’s good news for those who hear him preaching and repent. It’s bad news for those who hear him preaching and do not repent..

If Reverend Taylor knows a young educated man who verbally abuses his grandma systematically, and he preaches Christ to him, it is because Rev Taylor is convinced that such preaching will increase his chance of the young man recognizing his sin, repenting and stopping the verbal abuse against her grandma, becoming a loving grandson. It will decrease his chance of remaining in his sin and remaining in hell. So, the young man is facing a matter of life or death.

In contrast, the propositions that Jesus resurrected physically, or preexisted, or was God, or performed a substitutionary atonement, or that the Bible is inerrant, have no impact on whether the young man will repent, stop bullying his grandma, and become a loving grandson. All the contrary: by being doctrines that cannot be proved by reason, or proved to be connected with the change he needs, are just an opportunity for rejection on rational grounds.

So, Reverend Taylor has two possible consistent courses of action:

1. Stop preaching those doctrines, as that would increase the chances of the young educated man to be damned
2. Preach those doctrines, but not as a requisite to enjoy the transformative power of the grace of God. Teach them as a complement to the core doctrines that will impact his chances for salvation, once those core doctrines have been embedded in the young man's heart.

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Anyone who has heard Jesus preach and preaches “another Jesus” is accursed.

 

[Matthias]

A person can obey the doctrine of loving his neighbor, taught by Jesus Christ.

That isn’t all that Jesus preached. That isn’t the whole of the good news of the kingdom.

A person can love his neighbor as he loves himself and still not inherit the kingdom.

How can a person obey the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of Christ?

By believing it, the obedience of faith, and by believing that they too will be bodily resurrected from the grave when Jesus returns.

How can a person obey the doctrine of substitutionary atonement?

By believing it, the obedience of faith, coming under the new covenant.

How can a person obey the doctrine of biblical inerrancy in facts of science or history?

By believing it, the obedience of faith.

If a doctrine cannot be obeyed, it is because it does not imply a change in practice. Then, it is not a requirement for salvation.

The world is awash with doctrines which the disciple of Jesus cannot obey. They aren’t requirements of salvation, they are doctrines of demons which lead to the lake of fire.

Salvation is about living as a saved person.

Salvation is offered only by the one true God, through the preaching of Jesus who has the words of life. When the offer is seen, heard, and understood a person must repent in order to be forgiven. Those who are saved must still persevere to the end. I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

Otherwise, it is self-deception.

Self-deception is rampant in the world. It will be put to an end, but not before Jesus bodily returns to the earth, sits on the throne of David in Jerusalem and rules the nations with a rod of iron.

 

[Matthias]

“All you need is love.” - that’s the message of The Beatles; that’s not the gospel of the kingdom which Jesus preached.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is a Baha’i interpretation, not a disciple of Jesus interpretation.

I'm speaking on my behalf. I am not aware of any Baha'i interpretation of this parable in the Writings.

Disciples of Jesus hold a wide diversity of views around many texts in the Scriptures.
As a Baha'i, I am also a disciple of Jesus, and it is clear we sometimes differ in our views.

What we do is to explain why our interpretation of the parable has better chances to be consistent with the context or the overall message of the gospels than other people's explanation.

According to your interpretation of the parable, how many talents got the old lady from Fiji, who never heard about Jesus? Zero?
According to your interpretation, what does God demand from that lady and why?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

“All you need is love.” - that’s the message of The Beatles; that’s not the gospel of the kingdom Jesus preached.

All you need is love.
That's the Gospel of Jesus Christ, explicitly summarized by Jesus Himself.
There is NO other Gospel. It is the eternal gospel.

 

[Matthias]

I'm speaking on my behalf. I am not aware of any Baha'i interpretation of this parable in the Writings.

I stand corrected then. You’re expressing your private opinion as a Baha’i, not necessarily the opinion of Baha’i.

Disciples of Jesus hold a wide diversity of views around many texts in the Scriptures.

There are true disciples of Jesus and false disciples of Jesus. We are back now to the parable of the talents.

As a Baha'i, I am also a disciple of Jesus, and it is clear we sometimes differ in our views.

I don’t recognize you as a disciple of Jesus. I recognize you as a disciple of Baha’i.

What we do is to explain why our interpretation of the parable has better chances to be consistent with the context or the overall message of the gospels than other people's explanation.

As a disciple of Jesus I’m instructed to test the spirits. I’ve listened to it and tested it. It doesn’t persuade me. It isn’t the spirit of Jesus. It is a mixture of spirits.

According to your interpretation of the parable, how many talents got the old lady from Fiji, who never heard about Jesus? Zero?

The lady from Fiji isn’t a disciple of Jesus. She isn’t the subject of the parable.

According to your interpretation, what does God demand from that lady and why?

God wants everyone to hear the spirit of Jesus preaching. When they do and believe him preaching, they repent, are baptized. They become disciples of Jesus.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A person can love his neighbor as he loves himself and still not inherit the kingdom.

It is impossible to love your neighbor as you love himself, if you have not been saved by the grace of God. If you love your neighbor as you love himself, you are already a citizen of the kingdom.
In Mathew 5 we can read an explicit sermon of Jesus about the characteristics of the citizens of his kingdom.

By believing it, the obedience of faith, and by believing that they too will be bodily resurrected from the grave when Jesus returns.

Substitutionary atonement is only a belief. Obedience implies action.

By believing it, the obedience of faith, coming under the new covenant.

Bodily resurrection is only a belief. Obedience implies action.

By believing it, the obedience of faith.

Biblical inerrancy is only a belief. Obedience implies action.

The world is awash with doctrines which the disciple of Jesus cannot obey.

They let's not preach them as requirements to salvation.
You have not been able to show that substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection and biblical inerrancy lead to better obedience than not holding those doctrines.
Those are respectable beliefs, but cannot be proved or disproved by a holy life.

 

[Wrangler]

I used this example

It is not a real world example. In the real world, there is the soulful consideration. Forgive me but you ignored the wisdom of this OTOH.

These are principles to live by and it takes a wise person to know when to apply which one.

• "Ignorance is bliss" works well when the information is counterproductive. One example is, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Most are blissful in not knowing the mean thinks some might think about you over a decision, event, or action.

Leaving academic theology aside, what can you say about this application of the wisdom "Ignorance is bliss"? If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" implicitly means you don't know the negative things people are thinking.

 

[Matthias]

It is impossible to love your neighbor as you love himself, if you have not been saved by the grace of God.

That isn’t Christian belief.

If you love your neighbor as you love himself, you are already a citizen of the kingdom.

Neither is that Christian belief.

In Mathew 5 we can read an explicit sermon of Jesus about the characteristics of the citizens of his kingdom.


Substitutionary atonement is only a belief.

That is a full blown anti-New Testament assertion.

Obedience implies action.

Yes. You’ve taken action against it. Your faith and obedience lies elsewhere.

Bodily resurrection is only a belief.

That is a full blown anti-New Testament assertion. Your faith and obedience lies elsewhere.

Obedience implies action.

Yes. You’ve taken action against it. Your faith and obedience lies elsewhere.

Biblical inerrancy is only a belief.

This is an anti-New Testament assertion. Your faith and obedience lies elsewhere.

Obedience implies action.

Yes. You’ve taken action against it. Your faith and obedience lies eleswhere.

They let's not preach them as requirements to salvation.

You don’t preach them as reauirements for salvation. That is the spirit I’ve tested and found not to be the spirit of Jesus.

Do you see now how and why we could never be joined together as long as this situation exists?

You have not been able to show that substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection and biblical inerrancy lead to better obedience than not holding those doctrines.

I preach the New Testament. You’ve not been persuaded by New Testament preaching.

Those are respectable beliefs, but cannot be proved or disproved by a holy life.

That isn’t true at all for those who are truly disciples of Jesus.