Is it a sin for a Christian to vote for a Democrat?

[kcnalp]

LOL .. never heard of a colloquialism regardless .. the Fetus must have been rather late in the process to be able to "leap" - in which case I disagree with abortion.

What you have failed to do is support your claim that a zygote is "a human" .. lumping all that stops the process into the same bin is your fallacy.

You have it backwards. Prove they are not "a human".

So then .. When does the soul arrive into the fleshy abode .. and why at this time. Where did the soul come from .. and where will it go once it leaves the fleshy abode.

You sound quite merciless. Let them live. Don't kill them! Receive mercy from God. You have no right to kill them!
James 2:13 (NKJV)
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.

 

[Heart2Soul]

You are making things up.. what part of "colloquialism" did you miss in the last post. and once the fetus is big enough to leap about .. I agree with you that abortion would be wrong at this point in any case. There is nothing in your quote that helps is with abortion in the early stages .. and allusory stuff "I knew you in the womb" doesn't help either. Did Jesus not know all the Fetus's he commanded to be murdered in the OT ?

Now claiming the zygote has a soul .. is a completely different thing. You are correct that the single cell at conception contains the blueprint for a human in its DNA .. but .. so does every other human cell.

So if a spirit is life .. then we should not be killing anything ... not plants or animals. Unfortunately - we were created in such a way such that we need to kill life in order to survive.

So when does the soul enter the human vessel .. where does this soul come from - and where will it go when it leaves the vessel ?

Soul is the carnal mind. And as soon as the brain is developed it can start thinking.

 

[Heart2Soul]

And ultimately I believe history repeats itself forever.
And I come to this conclusion by starting at the end of Revelation.
And God created a new heaven and a new earth.
And ending in Genesis.
God created the heaven and the earth.
Round and round she goes...Eternal.
And I think what we are expereincing right now is the roll over.
And everything is upside down, right is wrong, good is evil.
And the world is in a kind of chaos.
It will right itself again..
We may have to go through hell to get there though.

But when He creates the New Heaven and Earth Satan and his demons won't be there.

 

[Bobby Jo]

@Devin Wintch

... However, I finally realized that he was answering a different question than what we would expect. ...

Hi C&Z,

NO rational man goes to his "boss" to confess his sins. That relationship is between him and GOD. So to castigate an employee for NOT CONFESSING EACH ONE OF HIS PERSONAL SINS PUBLICLY is unreasonable and improper. -- We've ALL fallen short of the glory of GOD.

Secondly, when a person makes an assertion against another man which he can't substantiate, it's called slander/defamation/character-assassination. And its seem to me that rather than criticizing OTHERS, -- he probably needs to take care of his own problems!

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

 

[Heyzeus]

So, in your view, a zygote can become a tree? Of course it's human. What this is called is "rationalization" the attempt to justify evil and antihuman behavior with arguments that only appear to be rational. Questioning whether a fertilized egg is human or not is the kind of fatal skepticism that remains detrimental to knowledge. It's like Descartes stupidly questioning is own existence.

Nothing like starting out with a strawman - "false claim about what the other said" - to start off a post. Clearly your reading comprehension needs work if you think I stated a zygote could become a tree.

What part of - what something might become - and what that something is now - did you miss from the last post.

Then you show the world how little you know about this debate .. by confusing the descriptive adjective use of the word "Human" (Human heart, Human cell, Human zygote, Human feces) with the Noun "A Human - A Child - A baby - A Person.

and then go on to project your failings on to me .. by claiming I am the one doing the rationalizing. a completely unsupported claim given everything that came prior was either false accusation or fallacious confusion - zero coherent substance that anyone could make sense of.

Your challenge that I prove that a human zygote is human is on the same level as Descartes' great lack of common sense. You want me to prove that a zygote is human because you somehow think it might be something else. The zygote represents the initial steps in dog development or horse development or bunny rabbit development? How absurd is that?

Or might there be another reason? Perhaps we define "human" according to our estimate of a person's intelligence. Perhaps we define "human" according to a "wellness" scale. Perhaps we define "human" according to our estimate of a person's survivability, susceptibility to disease, family history of downs syndrome, etc. Or perhaps we narrow our definition to members of the Aryan master race?

Nothing good has come from the question, "Is it human?" To ask the question is to doubt our existence, which can be as benignly stupid as Descartes or as dangerously evil as Hitler or Margaret Sanger.

I am not looking for mathematical proof .. nor do I need defacto scientific proof. All I want is some rational that shows your claim is true .. and that you address claims to the contrary.

If fact .. I have eliminated all the above strict criteria .. by asking you to give a religious argument .. and tell us when you think the soul arrives .. and why.

There is no right or wrong answer to this question .. it is not a "God ya" question .. you can not be proven right but you can't be prove wrong either .. so do not be afraid.

So .. to the question that did you not address .. (while in some rant about an Aryan Master race) - is when the Soul arrives.

A) when do you think the Soul enters the fleshy vessel
B) where did the Soul come from Prior (and this should be related to your answer to C)
C) where does the Soul go after it leaves the flesh.

See .. No blinding you with "Science" as per Thomas Dolby .. just a simple conversation about the particulars involved here.

 

[Heyzeus]

You have it backwards. Prove they are not "a human".

.

I don't have to. It is up to the claimant to support claim. I do not claim a zygote is not a human .. You on the other hand claim de-facto that the zygote is a human.

Why should I believe this claim. How is this single human cell - the same as a living human.

What definition of "Human" are you using .. I know of at least 5 main scientific perspectives on this question .. but feel free to use philosophic or bioethical arguments...

Do what you like .. but give some rational that shows why we should accept your claim as true.

You sound quite merciless. Let them live. Don't kill them! Receive mercy from God. You have no right to kill them!

Yes .. a terrible human I am.. - I must kill life in order to survive .. as that is how God made me and there is no other way for humans to survive.

You have yet to figure out what "Them" is yet .. so your accusation is fallacious gibberish.

 

[dev553344]

I have seen a couple of interviews where Donald Trump admitted that he had not asked God for forgiveness. However, I finally realized that he was answering a different question than what we would expect.

What he means to say, I think, is this. Donald Trump is not the sort of person who constantly looks backward, taking stock of what he has done. He is a man who constantly looks forward and is not interested in self-assessment or self-appraisal. In his mind, he always takes the correct and right action in any given situation. If a man sets out to always do the right thing, then he has no reason to ask for God's forgiveness. He does what he thinks is right and he moves on. He never questions his actions or worries about things that might have been. He isn't opposed to the idea of asking God's forgiveness. But he is resolved to wait until the final judgment.

That's my take on his answer. I could be wrong.

@Bobby Jo

Yes it would appear that you got that mostly correct. The answer was that he had not asked God for forgiveness. So he clearly doesn't look into his actions to assess whether or not he's done wrong. Now whether he sets out to do right and never intends to do wrong is open to debate.

Some of his recent actions are brought to my attention in my facebook account by friends that are red-letter Christians and others. And it would appear to me that he has acted in a derogatory manner towards women. Here's one I will look at: How Trump talks about women - and does it matter?

The psychologist in that article brings up some important points, but I will just say this, it's clear that he is not willing to look at and accept his faults and then correct them. Instead, as you mentioned, he just keeps moving on. And what do you call that type of person? Narcissist.

And although I would not vote for Biden, I think Trump is just the lesser of two evils, and I would much rather vote for someone like George Bush, who I can say represents a more dignified character. Noting George also prayed in office and represented Christians.

Back to you @Bobby Jo

 

[Heyzeus]

Soul is the carnal mind. And as soon as the brain is developed it can start thinking.

Interesting .. so you are stating the soul arrives when the brain starts working - when the wiring is complete - or near complete which is round 20-24 weeks into the process.

Don't really need to get into the car until the electrical system wiring is complete and functional I suppose .. "I think therefor I am" - and If the physical capacity for thought does not exist - the wiring is not complete .. perhaps I am Not

 

[Heyzeus]

@Bobby Jo

Yes it would appear that you got that mostly correct. The answer was that he had not asked God for forgiveness. So he clearly doesn't look into his actions to assess whether or not he's done wrong. Now whether he sets out to do right and never intends to do wrong is open to debate.

Some of his recent actions are brought to my attention in my facebook account by friends that are red-letter Christians and others. And it would appear to me that he has acted in a derogatory manner towards women. Here's one I will look at: How Trump talks about women - and does it matter?

The psychologist in that article brings up some important points, but I will just say this, it's clear that he is not willing to look at and accept his faults and then correct them. Instead, as you mentioned, he just keeps moving on. And what do you call that type of person? Narcissist.

And although I would not vote for Biden, I think Trump is just the lesser of two evils, and I would much rather vote for someone like George Bush, who I can say represents a more dignified character. Noting George also prayed in office and represented Christians.

Back to you @Bobby Jo

This is a ridiculous topic. It matters not if Trump has publicly confessed .. if there was a hint that he had not he would be praying in public in a second.. because Trump is in league with .... XXX

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I ask God for forgiveness for my sins, Trump admitted he hadn't. ...
... he had not asked God for forgiveness. ...

CITATION?

Bobby Jo

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nothing like starting out with a strawman - "false claim about what the other said" - to start off a post. Clearly your reading comprehension needs work if you think I stated a zygote could become a tree.

You must read my posts with a list of logical fallacies next to your desk. Figures.

[/quote]What part of - what something might become - and what that something is now - did you miss from the last post.[/quote]Why the same ol' worn out phrases? Are you taking a debate class or something?

Then you show the world how little you know about this debate .. by confusing the descriptive adjective use of the word "Human" (Human heart, Human cell, Human zygote, Human feces) with the Noun "A Human - A Child - A baby - A Person.

Your response here clearly reveals that you didn't listen to what I said so far. You care not to understand me, but only to "debate" me in such a silly manner, using worn out phrases and identifying each "logical fallacy" by name. Sad.

and then go on to project your failings on to me .. by claiming I am the one doing the rationalizing. a completely unsupported claim given everything that came prior was either false accusation or fallacious confusion - zero coherent substance that anyone could make sense of.

Finally, you admit the truth. You don't understand me. That is the first honest thing you have said so far. Perhaps you should put away your $10 words and pay closer attention.

I am not looking for mathematical proof .. nor do I need defacto scientific proof. All I want is some rational that shows your claim is true .. and that you address claims to the contrary.

The fact that a human fertilized egg is human is self evident. I don't need to prove what everyone already knows.

Your attempted venture into metaphysics is beside the point. Go back and re-read my posts. Attempt to understand what I said, since you admit you don't understand. Ask me intelligent questions instead of attempting to sound smart with your logic references. and trite phrases.

 

[dev553344]

This is a ridiculous topic. It matters not if Trump has publicly confessed .. if there was a hint that he had not he would be praying in public in a second.. because Trump is in league with .... XXX

When people make derogatory statements towards women, I would hope it was stemming from a heated argument. After the flames have settled, I would be asking God for forgiveness at minimum, but perhaps not asking the person I offended for forgiveness? What does the bible teach us? Well there are many passages, but I like this one the most:

Ephesians 4:29-32

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

And this appears to be a problem that some members on this forum have, so I don't expect a warm welcome on the subject.

 

[Ziggy]

But when He creates the New Heaven and Earth Satan and his demons won't be there.

So looking at the book of Revelation ch 20, the Devil never dies, they just get put aside.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now death and hell are removed.. until somebody decides they want to take a bite of the wrong tree.
In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die.
And thus the rider of the pale horse saddles up again.
It is because the devil is tormented that he decieves Eve.
He is one unhappy fellow.

Then you have the trees in the garden..
the ones they hid among.
Who are these??
I see men walking as trees... and God said you can eat of the trees (fruits) of the garden (Saints) , except 1.

And of course the tree of Life was, is, and always will be in the garden.
It's man that gets tossed out.
The rich man and the beggar.
The Lazarus parable.

Heart2Soul, I am in no wise stating any facts here, because I haven't died and gone to heaven yet, that I remember anyways.
And everytime I read the Bible I see things differently.
And like the blind man seeing men walking as trees, my understanding is still not perfect.
I write not to argue, but for the purpose of expression. Maybe bring freah perspective.
I love the challenges to my musings, it keeps me digging for more truth.
I appreciate you
HUGS

 

[dev553344]

CITATION?

Bobby Jo

Citation? And I'm not personally judging Trump, but I have to vote and know who's representing me, and keeping in mind that they have the power to use nuclear weapons on our behalf, a possible narcissist with a nuclear button representing me is something I don't take lightly:

 

[CadyandZoe]

@Bobby Jo

Yes it would appear that you got that mostly correct. The answer was that he had not asked God for forgiveness. So he clearly doesn't look into his actions to assess whether or not he's done wrong. Now whether he sets out to do right and never intends to do wrong is open to debate.

Some of his recent actions are brought to my attention in my facebook account by friends that are red-letter Christians and others. And it would appear to me that he has acted in a derogatory manner towards women. Here's one I will look at: How Trump talks about women - and does it matter?

The psychologist in that article brings up some important points, but I will just say this, it's clear that he is not willing to look at and accept his faults and then correct them. Instead, as you mentioned, he just keeps moving on. And what do you call that type of person? Narcissist.

And although I would not vote for Biden, I think Trump is just the lesser of two evils, and I would much rather vote for someone like George Bush, who I can say represents a more dignified character. Noting George also prayed in office and represented Christians.

Back to you @Bobby Jo

I disagree with the article because I disagree with the premise. Leftists tend to see the word divided into classes and always make general statements about classes of people. Notice the title of the article, "How Trump talks about women - and does it matter?" The author seeks to answer the question, assuming that Trump treats all women the same. How does Trump treat women as a class? But unlike Leftists, Trump and conservatives don't treat people according to what class they belong. All Trump cares about is whether or not a particular person is qualified to do a particular job and whether or not a particular individual is friend or foe.

For instance, what Trump said about Ms Yovanovitch, wasn't coming from a general attitude toward women, but an informed attitude toward Ms. Yavanovitch individually as a person. To judge Trump's attitude toward women as a class, based on a few examples is inaccurate and unfair.

In my observations, and I have watched a lot of video where the President interacts with people, I have noticed that the President treats women as I do, with kid gloves. Why? Because Jesus and the New Testament encourages us to treat women as the "weaker" partners.

1 Peter 3:7
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

We must give way to reality and consider our existence as human beings. Men are bigger and stronger and more powerful than women, which is why men of honor treat women gently and avoid using physical strength to win an argument or dominate the conversation. As Peter says, women and especially wives are fellow heirs of the grace of life and therefore, we should treat them as equals even though physically we are not equals.

Trump knows that women have not been treated fairly in society and in the work place. So he gives them plenty of encouragement and opportunities to do well and shine. He doesn't lower his expectations for them. He expects them to do work just as hard as the men, but he also treats them with respect and rewards them when they do well. Women thrive under his leadership.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Citation? And I'm not personally judging Trump, but I have to vote and know who's representing me, and keeping in mind that they have the power to use nuclear weapons on our behalf, a possible narcissist with a nuclear button representing me is something I don't take lightly:
...

THANK YOU!

"... that's [communion] a form of asking forgiveness, ... I feel cleansed ..."​

Jesus said what we feel in our hearts is the same as the commission, whether adultery, or confessing sins. Now if you want to base your judgement on the LAW, then you could be correct, -- so long as we understand that maybe Trump is protecting his personal relationship with GOD and is avoiding becoming a "Jimmy Carter" in his INFAMOUS Playboy interview.

But from where I sit, this man is closer to GOD than me, a professing (and confessing to GOD) Christian.
Bobby Jo

 

[CadyandZoe]

Citation? And I'm not personally judging Trump, but I have to vote and know who's representing me, and keeping in mind that they have the power to use nuclear weapons on our behalf, a possible narcissist with a nuclear button representing me is something I don't take lightly:

Use common sense. Base your vote on his track record and his leadership. Does he love this country? Does he love the people? During the Covid crisis, did he over-step his authority as President or did he defer to the State Governors? Did he keep his promises? Does he make promises he can't keep? Does he speak his mind and let us know what he is thinking?

 

[JohnDB]

I disagree with the article because I disagree with the premise. Leftists tend to see the word divided into classes and always make general statements about classes of people. Notice the title of the article, "How Trump talks about women - and does it matter?" The author seeks to answer the question, assuming that Trump treats all women the same. How does Trump treat women as a class? But unlike Leftists, Trump and conservatives don't treat people according to what class they belong. All Trump cares about is whether or not a particular person is qualified to do a particular job and whether or not a particular individual is friend or foe.

For instance, what Trump said about Ms Yovanovitch, wasn't coming from a general attitude toward women, but an informed attitude toward Ms. Yavanovitch individually as a person. To judge Trump's attitude toward women as a class, based on a few examples is inaccurate and unfair.

In my observations, and I have watched a lot of video where the President interacts with people, I have noticed that the President treats women as I do, with kid gloves. Why? Because Jesus and the New Testament encourages us to treat women as the "weaker" partners.

1 Peter 3:7
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

We must give way to reality and consider our existence as human beings. Men are bigger and stronger and more powerful than women, which is why men of honor treat women gently and avoid using physical strength to win an argument or dominate the conversation. As Peter says, women and especially wives are fellow heirs of the grace of life and therefore, we should treat them as equals even though physically we are not equals.

Trump knows that women have not been treated fairly in society and in the work place. So he gives them plenty of encouragement and opportunities to do well and shine. He doesn't lower his expectations for them. He expects them to do work just as hard as the men, but he also treats them with respect and rewards them when they do well. Women thrive under his leadership.

So you think that Trump divides people into two groups?
Those who can get a job done and those who can't?

 

[Ziggy]

Three peace deals, bringing the troops home, explaining to NK that our button is bigger than theirs, kicking China out of our classrooms.
And taking out Iranian bad guys.
And then there's Joe...
It's not what a man says, it's what he does that matters.
As far as who has their hand on a nuclear button, I would worry about being able to defend against a rogue country that had that in mind for us.
That's why the military was the #1 priority. It was wasted. We had no bullets. We were defenseless.
And then there's Joe...
But thats' just my some of my reasons for voting for Trump.
HUGS

 

[Bobby Jo]

I disagree with the article because I disagree with the premise. Leftists tend to see the word divided into classes and always make general statements about classes of people. Notice the title of the article, "How Trump talks about women - and does it matter?" ...

EXCELLENT COMMENT! -- And given the hostility from the "media", if I were Trump I'd be VERY CAREFUL not to give the enemy (satan) ammunition to use against me, whether my relationship between GOD, or relationships between man or woman.


It comes down to WISDOM, and Trump has a LOT!
Bobby Jo