Is it biblical for Jesus' followers to approve of the military practice?
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I realize that you have no real interest in what the Bible really teaches, but is just in effect making fun of Ecclesiastes 9:5. Paul wrote to Timothy that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17)KingJ said:
Hence, what Solomon wrote down at Ecclesiastes 9:5 is inspired by our Creator, Jehovah God for true Christians to help them become "fully competent", which as Jesus did when the Jews "picked up stones to hurl them at him", carefully slipping away from their grasp into hiding.(John 8:59) Was he afraid to face them ? Never. Rather, he used godly wisdom and was "cautious as serpents".(Matt 10:16) Like a dog that runs away to safety rather than be "macho", Jesus also did.
Just as Jesus was politically neutral to the Roman Empire affairs, so likewise so am I. What Neville Chamberlain did in regard to Hitler was his business. Jesus said that his disciples are "no part of the world."(John 15:19) Hence, true Christians stay out of the political arena, for all political governments are a creation of Satan.(Rev 13:1)
Interesting that you quote Rev 13:1 and not Rom 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.Guestman said:
It doesn't take a high IQ to grasp that God had the Jews kill many for their survival. Yes, God loves everyone. Yes, the death penalty is not really 'Christian' as it displays vengeance and not mercy / love / forgiveness or granting more time for the evil to accept the Lord. Yes, we must opt rather to spare life then take it. BUT if death comes knocking at yours or your neighbours door, you deal with it. If that results in you needing to kill, so be it. If you don't, the blood of the innocent is on YOUR hands. That is a fact that you all are dodging!
Anyone who thinks self defense is wrong has to ignore the entire OT. We can't do that can we, as you correctly quoted 2 Tim 3:16,17 ^_^. Now if we study the OT properly, we see how God's destruction was always a last resort. He warned many times. He gave plagues at increasing levels of severity. But to the wicked that ignored Him, His destruction came.
Now please do not dodge the question. Whether you are Chamberlain having to deal with Hitler or a father having to deal with a serial killer in the neighbourhood it is irrelevant. What will you do? Do we accept that it's God's will that we all die at the hands of the serial killer? If we have the power to stop him and don't are we not tempting God?
Imho you are a hypocrite. If you were English and in London when the Germans were bombing it, you would....run to shelter? try stop the bombing? or...what I assume you are encouraging us all to do...walk in the streets and ignore the bombs. Running for shelter and doing nothing to stop the bombs is the same as walking in the streets. That my friend is tempting God. Please say it like it is. I hope for your sake that it is just a case of you not having thought it through.
How many oppressed would convert to Christianity if the Christian nations never got off their behinds to help?
Be honest now. If you were a Kurd being gassed by Sadam and you saw Christian nations just watching you suffer...You will not care about them and their God! You are dodging this fact! It is satanic, not Christian to sit and do nothing when people suffer.
Hi Rex, I am not sure what your point in quoting this verse is? Are you equating the need to protect my son from a killer with Jesus from the Pharisees?Rex said:
This verse is not talking against self defense rather against Christians forcefully making earth, heaven. Protecting Jesus when it is God's will that He be crucified.
There is no such thing as a Christian nation. If Israel of old could not be faithful to keep God's commandments even in a visible way how can a modern nation keep the spiritually much more difficult commandments of Christ? A nation is ruled by human power, money and force. Does this sound like the kingdom of God? Those advocating that a nation can be Christian are either neophytes or severely deceived. All nations will rise up against the Lord at His coming. Think about it...which spiritual force wants you to believe that a nation can be a follower of Christ?
Romans 13 says that the governments stand placed in their "relative positions " by God.(Rom 13:1; Matt 22:21, Acts 5:29) And you, as with so many others, have the incorrect view of why Jehovah God had his people destroy the Canaanites.(Num 21:1-3, 34, 35; Jos 6:20, 21) This fact has been used by some critics as a means for depicting the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) as imbued with a spirit of cruelty and wanton slaughter. But to set the record straight, what kind of people were the Canaanites to recieve such destruction ?KingJ said:
It need be noted that the issue involved, however, is clearly that of whether God's sovereignty over the earth and its inhabitants is acknowledged or not. Jehovah had deeded over the land of Canaan to the "seed of Abraham", doing so by an oath-bound covenant with Abraham in 1943 B.C.E.(Gen 12:5-7; 15:17-21)
But more than a mere eviction or dispossessing of the existing tenants of the land of Canaan was purposed. Jehovah's right to act as "Judge of all the earth" (Gen 18:25) and to decree the sentence of capital punishment upon those found meriting it, as well as his right to implement and enforce the execution of this decree, was also involved.
By the time of the Israelite conquest over 400 years later, what were the moral conditions ? Jehovah had allowed 400 years from Abraham's time for the ' error of the Amorites to come to completion'.(Gen 15:16) The fact that Esau's Hittite wives were "a source of bitterness of spirit to Isaac and Rebekah" to the extent that Rebekah had ' come to abhor her life because of them' is certainly an indication of the badness already manifest among the Canaanites.(Gen 26:34, 35; 27:46)
During the following centuries, the land of Canaan became saturated with detestable practices of idolatry, immorality, and bloodshed. The Canaanite religion was extraordinarily base and degraded, far worse than the immoral pornography that exists today, having "sacred poles" that represented the erect male sex organ, and engaging in their rites at their "high places" that involved gross sexual excesses and depravity.(Ex 23:34; Num 33:52; Deut 7:5)
Incest, sodomy, and bestiality were part of ' the way of the land of Canaan' that made the land unclean in God's eyes. At Leviticus 18, Jehovah tells the Israelites that "the way the land of Canaan does, into which I am bringing you, you must not do; and in their statues you must not walk."(Lev 18:3) Then, a list of the immoral wrongs that the Canaanites practiced were noted as immoral or "unclean".(Lev 18:6-23)
But more depravity was involved. Added to their other degraded practices was that of child sacrifice. According to Merrill F. Unger: "Excavations in Palestine have uncovered piles of ashes and remains of infant skeletons in cemetaries around heathen altars, pointing to the widespread practice of this cruel abomination."(Archaeology and the Old Testament, 1964, p. 279)
Halley's Bible Handbook (1964, p. 161) says: "Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale....Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist ?....Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did."
Hence, it was not for survival that the Israelites were commanded to "devote to destruction" the Canaanites, but because of the immoral, filthy, unclean, and murderous attitude and practices they followed. Would you live next to a people that practiced such a repugnant way of life ? Our Creator, Jehovah God, to protect his people from these wicked conditions, commanded that "the land...vomit its inhabitants out."(Lev 18:25b) Thence, a detailed study of the Canaanites should be in order first before passing judgment.
If a serial killer were on the loose, what is the wise thing to do ? What would Jesus do ? As Jesus said at Matthew 10, to be "cautious as serpents but innocent as doves." It need be noted that in addition to being "cautious as serpents", being very careful where we go, Jesus also noted that a true Christian is to be "innocent as doves". Does a dove cause harm to anyone ? If a person were to commit violence against another person, is he being "innocent as doves" ?KingJ said:
Hence, a genuine Christian follows this counsel from Jesus and uses godly wisdom to stay away from dangerous areas and cautiously looks around (and reporting any suspicious activity to the proper authorities) for anyone who may have an appearance that may mean trouble, just as Jesus did.(John 8:59; 10:39) These remain "innocent as doves", allowing the law enforcement to handle the situation.
You are wanting to push the issue of individuals fighting for their country by using a conjured up analogy of Chamberlain and Hitler. No matter what the scenario, genuine followers of Jesus Christ follow in his "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) and do not take sides (either physically or mentally, Rev 13:16) in any of the military situations that arise.
It is obvious that you have not read and considered Isaiah 2 (and Micah 4), in which it says that those who come to love their Creator, Jehovah God, allow themselves to be instructed by him in these "final part of the days", that "they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."(Isa 2:4) These change from being warlike to peace lovers, having ' beaten their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears', implements of peace used in raising foodstuffs to benefit themselves and others.
The nations of the earth will continue to promote their warlike stance, rather than adhere to the words at Psalms 2: "And now, O kings, exercise insight; Let yourselves be corrected, O judges of the earth.....Kiss the son, that he may not become incensed and you have to perish in the way, for his anger flares up easily."(Ps 2:10, 12) True Christians are neutral toward the world and its political affairs, but are vigilant in telling others about "the good news of the kingdom."(Matt 24:14)
When the Great Jewish Revolt broke out in 66 C.E., the Jews fought against the Romans, but what did the Christians do ? They remained neutral, and followed Jesus words to flee the area, going to the Gentile city of Pella.(Matt 24:15-18) The situation in Jerusalem steadily got worse with Jewish factions fighting for control of the city until 70 C.E. when General Titus came and decimated it, including the temple. However, the Christians were safe. They listened to Jesus rather than the Jewish Zealots who wanted political freedom from Rome and went to war to try to obtain it.
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