Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Dan Clarkston]

But wait a minute - Armour of God was writing about people who have died and gone to heaven. Are you saying that people can sin (and have security in sin) in heaven?

The Lord has set a legal precedent so that in the future of God's Kingdom, if anybody ever does what lucifer did in the beginning (just thinking of being in opposition to the Lord which is sin) they will like lightning immediately be cast out of God's Kingdom in to hell.

So no, there's not going to be any sin or sinners in Heaven.

 

[David Lamb]

The Lord has set a legal precedent so that in the future of God's Kingdom, if anybody ever does what lucifer did in the beginning (just thinking of being in opposition to the Lord which is sin) they will like lightning immediately be cast out of God's Kingdom in to hell.

So no, there's not going to be any sin or sinners in Heaven.

Thanks. It just looked from the part of his post you quoted (about heaven) and your reply as though you thought people could sin in heaven. I'm glad you don't think that, and I apologise for misunderstanding.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Thanks. It just looked from the part of his post you quoted (about heaven) and your reply as though you thought people could sin in heaven. I'm glad you don't think that, and I apologies for misunderstanding.

We will still have free will in God's Kingdom so it's possible someone could decide to oppose the Lord.

There's no darkness in God, so the split second any sin gets start, that's how fast that person will be immediately removed from God's Kingdom.

Now the greasy grace crowd will be thinking they can continue in sin in Heaven, but that's a moot point as those teaching false doctrine won't make the cut so they won't even be in Heaven.

 

[Armour of God]

That's the lie that leads so many to believing in the greasy grace, fake "security in sin" gospel.

I'm not trying to lie, I'm just giving my opinion. I don't think anyone knows for certain, I don't, that's why we discuss such things.

Do you think you know for certain?

You replied to
"Once your dead and your spirit is saved in heaven then I believe it cannot be lost"

I also said
"But many people claim to be saved as if it's already happened when in reality the salvation process is not done until our bodies die on this earth"

I think that the "faith alone" concept, especially osas, gives people "security in sin" as they think they are already saved here on earth, that's not what I believe, its not what i said.

Im not condoning sin. In fact I believe we need to have good deeds and repent to get to heaven because we will be judged on our deeds.
Once we die on this earth and our spirits are in heaven, then I think we are safe.

You don't believe in faith alone or osas, neither do I.
So then what exactly do you disagree with?
Do you think we can still go to hell after our spirits have been received in heaven?

 

[gpresdo]

The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person. OSAS vs. NOSAS (believing you can or cannot lose your salvation) is not the gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Not saved - lest they should believe and be saved.

Now even though this stony ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Because this is a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Faith without works is dead. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established, consumated belief resulting in salvation." *Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit (Luke 8:6,13) represent saving belief? It doesn't. Also, the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even though there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching its desired goal because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful, bears no fruit, yields nothing. (Mark 4:19)

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So, only the 4th soil in the parable of the Sower was referred to as good ground that produced a crop/fruit and there is no mention of being scorched, choked out or withering away afterwards.

His Word takes root (in contrast with no root and choked out) is the key.

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE BAPTISM IS NOT REQUIRED for sin cleansing?

 

[mailmandan]

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE BAPTISM IS NOT REQUIRED for sin cleansing?

Cleansing of sins has three applications: 1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28 2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18 3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16

 

[gpresdo]

Cleansing of sins has three applications: 1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28 2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18 3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16

Can u answer me yes...or no?

 

[mailmandan]

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE BAPTISM IS NOT REQUIRED for sin cleansing?

Yes. Baptism is not required for sin cleansing because baptism is not the cause of sin cleansing.

 

[mailmandan]

Taking root comes gradually and does not take away from the fact that they heard and received the Word.

Heard and received the word without taking root falls short of seed being sown on the good soil which are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, some thirtyfold and some sixtyfold and some a hundredfold.” (Mark 4:20) That's the real difference!

Of course the greasy grace crowd teaches Jesus lied which they are required to do in their feeble attempt to protect their precious false doctrine. This is how cults operate.

All of your name calling and false accusations are feeble attempts to protect your false doctrine. I have found that all false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

Did Jesus lie when He said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:38-40)

What about when Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:27-28)

The Word was obviously in the ones that fell away in the beginning, otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for the devil to go try to steal or choke the Word out of them. Here is yet another case where greasy grace claims Jesus lied.

The Word ONLY took firm root in the good ground, which represents one who not only heard and received the word, but also accepted it and bears fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixtyfold and some a hundredfold.” What happened to fruit bearing in the rocky and thorny soil?

No, if a person hears and receives the Word concerning salvation and they die 2 minutes after doing so they will in fact go to Heaven even though they are so new to the things of the Lord and have not yet had enough time for God's Word to take root.

No firm root =:no salvation. Hearing and receiving the word with joy (emotional response) does not cut it. A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. Period.

Next time you see a sinner confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior... but sure and run over and tell them that they are not actually born again yet as they'll have to wait a while until God's Word takes root and they bare fruit.

Even make believers in false religions and cults can claim to confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior. When God's Word took root in me 28 years ago on a Saturday night, I wasted no time confessing Jesus as Lord by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) with my hands raised in the air.

I spent the next 5 minutes or so praising Jesus as Lord and thanking Him for saving me. Praise God! I was water baptized on Sunday morning and wasted no time sharing the gospel with everyone I knew. I did not sit around for a while waiting for God's Word to take root after I believed the gospel or to bear fruit.

The act of turning from sin and choosing to receive Jesus as one's Lord and Savior is bearing good fruit.

Bearing good fruit is the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

I see so when Jesus tells us we shall know them by their fruit, Jesus was lying according to the greasy grace crowd. That tracks for them, seeing their are cherry pickers who don't accept all the Lord says.

Jesus was not lying when He said, "you shall know them by their fruit" (Matthew 7:20) and He was also not lying when He said, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

*John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[David Lamb]

We will still have free will in God's Kingdom so it's possible someone could decide to oppose the Lord.

There's no darkness in God, so the split second any sin gets start, that's how fast that person will be immediately removed from God's Kingdom.

Now the greasy grace crowd will be thinking they can continue in sin in Heaven, but that's a moot point as those teaching false doctrine won't make the cut so they won't even be in Heaven.

I have never heard anybody say that heaven is a place where we can continue to sin, or even want to do so. The devil is not there to tempt anyone to sin. Revelation tells us that those in heaven will be serving their Saviour day and night, in other word, all the time:

(Rev 7:15 NKJV) Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

 

[Armour of God]

Do you think we can still go to hell after our spirits have been received in heaven?

I have never heard anybody say that heaven is a place where we can continue to sin, or even want to do so. The devil is not there to tempt anyone to sin. Revelation tells us that those in heaven will be serving their Saviour day and night, in other word, all the time:

(Rev 7:15 NKJV) Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

@Dan Clarkston

Can we sin in heaven?
Can we be outcast from heaven into hell?

This is something that I haven't even contemplated because im not in heaven yet, im not saved yet as some people think they are, salvation happens after death.
When asked if we can loose our salvation I'm thinking about people who claim to be already saved here on earth.

But since Dan has brought up this point I've been thinking if there is any Scripture to support it and Lucifer comes to mind. Lucifer was in heaven with God yet he sinned and he was outcast along with several angels. So maybe its possible that we have free will in heaven, we can sin in heaven and we can be outcast from heaven.

So of angels can be outcast from heaven maybe we can be too

 

[David Lamb]

@Dan Clarkston

Can we sin in heaven?
Can we be outcast from heaven into hell?

This is something that I haven't even contemplated because im not in heaven yet, im not saved yet as some people think they are, salvation happens after death.
When asked if we can loose our salvation I'm thinking about people who claim to be already saved here on earth.

But since Dan has brought up this point I've been thinking if there is any Scripture to support it and Lucifer comes to mind. Lucifer was in heaven with God yet he sinned and he was outcast along with several angels. So maybe its possible that we have free will in heaven, we can sin in heaven and we can be outcast from heaven.

So of angels can be outcast from heaven maybe we can be too

There are plenty of Bible verses teaching us that saved people, Christians, have everlasting life, and that their citizenship is in heaven. I cannot think of any Scripture that even hints that a saved person can be cast out of heaven. The fallen angels were cast out, but they were not saved.

 

[Armour of God]

There are plenty of Bible verses teaching us that saved people, Christians, have everlasting life, and that their citizenship is in heaven. I cannot think of any Scripture that even hints that a saved person can be cast out of heaven. The fallen angels were cast out, but they were not saved.

In my opinion if an angel can be cast out of heaven then its possible we can too.
I can't be certain either way.

 

[David Lamb]

In my opinion if an angel can be cast out of heaven then its possible we can too.
I can't be certain either way.

Fallen angels were in heaven when they sinned. Fallen human beings were on earth when they sinned. Saved human beings have their sins paid for and dealt with by their Saviour. Satan and temptation are not in heaven. The idea that someone could go to heaven, sin there, and be cast out, is not found in the Bible, as far as I am aware. Nor do we read of any possibility of fallen angels being saved.

 

[Armour of God]

The idea that someone could go to heaven, sin there, and be cast out, is not found in the Bible

Are your certain what your saying is true?
I'm not, this idea is new to me, I could be right but I admit I could be wrong.
Do you admit you could be wrong?

The idea that a being cannot be cast out of heaven is not in the bible.
The idea that a being can be cast out of heaven is in the bible.

Wheather Angel or human might not matter.
The point is that it's heaven.
If a being has free will in heaven then they can sin. And if an angel can get cast out from heaven then it's possible we can too.

Answer this.
Do you think beings have free will in heaven?
If a being commits an unrepentant sin in heaven, as Lucifer did, would you expect God to let them stay?

 

[David Lamb]

Are your certain what your saying is true?
I'm not, this idea is new to me, I could be right but I admit I could be wrong.
Do you admit you could be wrong?

The idea that a being cannot be cast out of heaven is not in the bible.
The idea that a being can be cast out of heaven is in the bible.

Wheather Angel or human might not matter.
The point is that it's heaven.
If a being has free will in heaven then they can sin. And if an angel can get cast out from heaven then it's possible we can too.

Answer this.
Do you think beings have free will in heaven?
If a being commits an unrepentant sin in heaven, as Lucifer did, would you expect God to let them stay?

The notion of saved sinners being accepted into heaven and then sinning there and being cast out is just not biblical. John wrote to Christians:

(1Jn 3:2 NKJV) Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

And in Revelation we read concerning heaven:

(Rev 21:27 NKJV) But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Jesus had a lot to say about and this taught that the path to eternal life is narrow and that few find it. In Matthew 7:13-14, He said;

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."​

This shows that salvation is not guaranteed for everyone, and only those who stay faithful and follow His teachings will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


Jesus also warned that some would hear the word and believe for a while, but eventually fall away. In the Parable of the Sower, He explained;

"But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles." (Matthew 13:20-21).​

This illustrates that some will start their walk with God but will not persevere when faced with trials or temptations.

In John 15:6, Jesus made it even clearer, saying;

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."​

Here, Jesus compares Himself to a vine and believers as branches. A branch must remain connected to the vine to stay alive and bear fruit. If a person disconnects from Christ through disobedience or unbelief, they wither spiritually and face eternal judgment.


The original apostles also confirmed this truth. Peter warned in 2 Peter 2:20-21;

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them."​

This shows that a person who was once saved and returns to sin is in a worse condition than before they knew the truth.​

James also affirmed this truth when he said;

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."​

(James 5:19-20).​

This verse reveals that a believer can wander away from the truth and face spiritual death unless they repent and return to God.

The Bible does provide examples of those who lost their salvation. Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve apostles chosen by Jesus, yet he betrayed the Lord for thirty pieces of silver. Jesus Himself said about Judas;

"It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24).​

This shows that Judas was once in the faith but fell away and was lost.

Another example is Balaam, a prophet who once heard from God but later led Israel into sin for personal gain. Peter referred to him, saying,

"They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor." (2 Peter 2:15). King Saul is yet another example; he was chosen and anointed by God but later disobeyed and rebelled, and the Spirit of God departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14)​

Jesus' words make it clear that salvation is not a one-time event but requires endurance and faithfulness until the end. As He said in Matthew 24:13, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Therefore, those who abide in Christ, obey His commandments, and remain faithful will receive eternal life. However, those who turn away from Him and return to sin risk losing their salvation and facing eternal separation from God: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."Rev 14:12

Blessings.

There are too many moving parts for us to be so certain that we understand it all enough to even dare to teach about it. Also, our human reasoning applied to the parables creates disastrous results, not to mention huge blind spots.
Some people will need to eat the fruit and leaves of trees that bloom every month to heal (and to keep living?) Are they saved? I would say they will certainly think so - continuously saved every month! It reads like a sci fi story where people need to drink an elixir once a month to stay young! Now if you find that narrow way that leads to entering eternal life and the Kingdom now, would you be one of those who needs the leaves and fruit of those trees spoken of? It SEEMS like maybe no. So who are the trees for and can you say the ones they are for don’t have eternal life? You could maybe say they don’t have it IN them but you couldn’t say anything further. And what is outer darkness? Why is it not thrown into the lake of fire for annihilation as hell and its’ contents are? Does that mean the hypocrites who teach and live a lie will be there in that darkness…FOREVER?? How so if they can’t be said to have eternal life?
We are far too certain about far too many things and we broadcast that certainty as if God has explained it all to us. We’re like children pretending we can read while we’re holding the book upside down.
We do NOT have God all figured out. We do NOT understand exactly how merciful He is. A humility that says, I really don’t know, is far better and safer than an arrogant parroting of systematic theology that claims “scripture is plain on this matter!!l

 

[Armour of God]

The notion of saved sinners being accepted into heaven and then sinning there and being cast out is just not biblical. John wrote to Christians:

(1Jn 3:2 NKJV) Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

And in Revelation we read concerning heaven:

(Rev 21:27 NKJV) But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Those verses don't guarantee that one cannot be cast out of heaven. And you didn't bother to answer any of my questions
I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see when we get there