Is our understanding of Gen 12:1 correct?
- Thread starter Jay Ross
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The first promise was in (Gen. 12:1) "...unto a land that I will shew thee" Further enlargement on this promise are given later.
As to Christ ruling in the Millennium, statements had already been made concerning inheriting the earth. The rule of Christ from Jerusalem, in Israel shows that Israel will be the leading nation to rule over the earth.
Stranger
'In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram,
saying, "Unto thy seed have I given this land,
from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.'
(Genesis 15:18-21)
Hello @Stranger,
The area of land promised was much greater than that of Canaan though wasn't it? They never fully occupied all that was promised to them. That awaits a future day.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Yes, that is correct. The land will be much more than present day.
Stranger
Your opinions are noted, but still do not change my opinion and understanding of Genesis_12:1 & 7 that God's promise was an earth tht he would show him.
Shalom.
Hello @Jay Ross,
I understand that your reasoning is based on the translation of H776 ('erets). You believe that Genesis 12:1 'Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:... ' Should have the same translation it has in Genesis 1:1, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' Both being a translation of H776.
However, that being so, would it not be necessary to apply that to all of the other translations of this Hebrew word, in order to be consistent? Verses then, where H776 is translated 'countries', or 'country' (as in Genesis 10:20, Genesis 26:3),'land', 'field', 'ground', 'nations', 'way','wilderness' or 'world', would all need to be re-translated, 'earth', is that so? Regardless of their context, or sense? Surely not.
I notice also, in looking through the various usages of H776, that where it is translated 'earth', it usually has the article, 'the' before it. This should be significant in your thinking, if you have an understanding of the laws of the Hebrew language, shouldn't it? Unfortunately I do not, but I know that it has significance, because I have read occasions when the presence of the article has been mentioned as being important. Perhaps you could investigate that, Jay.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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I comment you for your persistence but H:0776 ('erets) is found embedded in around 64 different Hebrew Words and their variations. A little like our Latin roots are found in English variations of English words but the meaning of each of the variations is consistent and the English variation is considered to only have one meaning.
The same is also true where the Hebrew root word is found embedded in 64 different Hebrew words which should all have the same meaning for each of the Hebrew words where the Hebrew root is embedded.
But you are creating a strawman argument in an attempt to win.
I am not playing a game. Violence has been done to the source language by the translators way back in time and the consequences of this violence has left us with various translations that bears no resemblance to the original message and context of the source texts.
Now I am secure in my understanding of Gen_12:1 & 7. Now when you have a real argument to justify your understanding, then I will be all ear to consider your position, but so far you have not presented and argument that holds water.
Shalom
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Since Jay believes his erroneous interpretation is correct, he won't be investigation anything.
And you are correct. Depending on the context that word is translated either as land or the earth. But for a lot of Christians, context means nothing.
Since you believe that your understanding is correct, you will not investigate anything that is contrary to your "contextual" understanding as that will cause you to reconsider everything you know about the OT prophecies.
Shalom
Hello Jay,
I am not in the habit of playing games with God's Word, and why should I seek to gain an advantage over you. I merely sought to rationalise your argument, and give you further food for thought.
May God's will be done in each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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'Blessed are the meek:
for they shall inherit the earth.' (G1093 - ge)
(Mat 5:5)
'But the meek shall inherit the earth; (H776 - erets )
and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.'
(Psa 37:11)
* The Greek equivalent of the Hebrew erets is ge, and is translated with the same variants as in the Hebrew.
* In relation to the Greek word, ge: I read that it refers to:-
- land as distinct from water;
- or earth as distinct from heaven;
- or region or territory,
- used of one special land, or country, as distinct from other countries, in which peoples dwell, each on its own soil.
* This is the same for either the Hebrew or Greek word.
for they shall inherit the earth.' (G1093 - ge)
(Mat 5:5)
'But the meek shall inherit the earth; (H776 - erets )
and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.'
(Psa 37:11)
* The Greek equivalent of the Hebrew erets is ge, and is translated with the same variants as in the Hebrew.
* In relation to the Greek word, ge: I read that it refers to:-
- land as distinct from water;
- or earth as distinct from heaven;
- or region or territory,
- used of one special land, or country, as distinct from other countries, in which peoples dwell, each on its own soil.
* This is the same for either the Hebrew or Greek word.
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If "haa'aarets" has the contextual meaning of "earth" for the 67 times it is found in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, then why does the contextual meaning all of a sudden become "land" on the whim of the translators in Gen_12:1 & 7? The translators flip flop between "earth" and "land" to suit their theological understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant. Why?
This is the question you are not addressing. Why all of a sudden does the meaning and understanding of "haa'aarets" change from "earth" to "land?"
In Gen_13:14-17 God promises to give the land of Canaan to Abraham's descendants, and in the Hebrew text he makes no mention of Abraham being given any of the land, but in the translator's English text all of a sudden, Abraham is also receiving the land of Canaan.
The inconsistencies in the translator's English Text are there to see if you look for them.
But if you want to keep with the inconsistencies of the translators, then be my guest.
Shalom
Hello Jay,
With respect, I have not sought to answer that question, because I have not been asked it? :)
* Earlier this evening, before receiving notice of your response, I had been looking through the list of verses in which H776 is used by the Holy Spirit: and the context of each one determined it's intended use. Firstly, in Genesis 1:1 the words, 'heaven' and 'earth', with the Hebrew article, 'eth' before each, i.e., the word, 'the': intends that the emphasis should be on the word, 'The', for it is THE heaven and THE earth, the word 'earth' used in order to differentiate between the two spheres of creativity. Genesis 1 & 2 are linked by a figure of speech called 'anadiplosis' (or like sentence endings and beginnings), In Latin it is called, 'Reversio' or 'a turning back'. The object of this figure of speech is to emphasise the words repeated, in this case it being the word, 'Earth'.
'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void;
and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.'
(Gen 1:1-2)
* This figure is the very first figure employed in the Bible, and it is used to call our attention to, and emphasise, the fact that, while the first statement refers to two things, 'the heaven and the earth'; the following statement proceeds to speak of only one of them, leaving the other entirely out of consideration.
* Both were created 'in the beginning.' But the earth, at some time and by some means, and from some cause (not stated) became a ruin:- empty, waste, and desolate. For it was not created so (Isaiah 45:18).
* In the next verse listed under H776, (Genesis 1:10) the dry land is named:-
'And God called the dry land - Earth; (no Heb. article here)
and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas:
and God saw that it was good.'
(Gen 1:10)
* So here the word 'earth' is used to differentiate it from the water.
'And God said, 'Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,
and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,
whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:
and it was so.'
(Gen 1:11)
* Here the earth (that is the dry land) is referred to.
* You see, Jay, each usage and it's meaning is determined by the context. Nothing comes to a complete stop at Genesis 12, for this word continues to be used all the way through the Old and New Testament.
* I can't continue now, but will do so If you wish.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
That was the intent of the OP. To ask why the scholars are right and Jesus' understanding is wrong.
Most have tried to prove that the Scholars are right and that the change in the meaning of "haa'aarets" is justified.
I am saying that the change in the meaning of "haa'aarets" in Gen_12:1 & 7 is not justified and that the scholar have got it wrong.
In looking at the Hebrew Root word, we must consider apples with apples with respect to the Hebrew words it is found embedded in.
I can do what you are doing but if I create a list of every occurrence of H:0776 then I am comparing apples with raspberries and I lose the context of just the Hebrew word "haa'aarets".
The Hebrew root H:0776 is found embedded 317 times in various Hebrew words in the Book of Genesis.
The last time it is used in the Book of Genesis is in: -
Gen_50:24: - 24 And Joseph said to his brethren, "I am dying; but God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land/earth ("haa'aarets) to the land/earth ("haa'aarets") of which He swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob."
If we apply the meaning of the first occurrence to every occurrence of "haa'aarets" then the above understanding of Gen_50:24 is correct.
Shalom
Hello @Jay Ross,
I ask you to please be patient with me, and know that I am not seeking to stand against you on this matter, but simply want to sit alongside you and consider what you are saying and why (Strongs No. H776). I have begun by downloading the Hebrew and Greek interlinear Bible and Analyser from 'Scripture 4 all'.
Looking first of all at our Lord's words in Matthew 5:5 (G1093), (which I cannot unfortunately copy and paste for some reason), 'Happy the meek, that they, they shall-be-tenanting the land,' (and alternatively), 'Happy the meek for they shall-be-enjoying (the) allotment (of) the land.'
I find that this subject will not leave me, for it is so very important that our understanding is not clouded by wrong interpretation: as it can lead to error, not only for ourselves, which is bad enough, but for others too.
I also found the following link which explains the meaning of the word HaAretz, and it's usage which I hope you will read, as it is quite revealing. Hebrew Meanings: HaAretz
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I ask you to please be patient with me, and know that I am not seeking to stand against you on this matter, but simply want to sit alongside you and consider what you are saying and why (Strongs No. H776). I have begun by downloading the Hebrew and Greek interlinear Bible and Analyser from 'Scripture 4 all'.
Looking first of all at our Lord's words in Matthew 5:5 (G1093), (which I cannot unfortunately copy and paste for some reason), 'Happy the meek, that they, they shall-be-tenanting the land,' (and alternatively), 'Happy the meek for they shall-be-enjoying (the) allotment (of) the land.'
I find that this subject will not leave me, for it is so very important that our understanding is not clouded by wrong interpretation: as it can lead to error, not only for ourselves, which is bad enough, but for others too.
I also found the following link which explains the meaning of the word HaAretz, and it's usage which I hope you will read, as it is quite revealing. Hebrew Meanings: HaAretz
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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When I look at the Abrahamic Covenant, my sense is God reaching out to Abraham to form a relationship with him and the "earth" that God was intending to show Abraham and his descendants was a particular state of being when in that relational state with God. This state has nothing to do with the location of where Abraham and his descendants are living at the time of being in this relational state of being in the earth that God will show them. When Israel turned to worship idols, the earth that God was going to show to Abraham and his descendants, the earth became desolated, i.e. corrupted through their idolatrous worship.
In Gen_12:1 & 7 God was putting into place a means of restoration between God and mankind because of the fall in the garden of Eden.
If you read Ezekiel and correct the bad traditional translation of the Hebrew text, God does not Gather Israel to Himself and then haul them all of to the Land of Canaan, but rather, God gathers Israel to Himself and plants them into a fertile field, in the soil of Israel, meteorically, a place where Israel can draw nourishment from God as He teaches Israel about the things of the Kingdom of God, on the Mountains of Israel, meteorically, which is God's basis of relationship with Him where he finds them Scattered throughout the whole world/earth.
For Israel to become a blessing for all of the nations of the earth, Israel must remain scattered throughout the whole earth so that the gentile can grab the sleeve of an Israelite and Say :Let us walk with you because we know that God is now with you.
The Earth being our inheritance is a relational concept that we obtain when we are in a right relationship with God. The Promised land of Gen_15:17-21 is a solemn sign covenant, in response to Abraham's question of "How will I know that I will inherit the earth, Gen_15:7-8
Gen_15:7-8: - 7 Then He said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land/earth, to inherit it."
8 And he said, "Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?"
8 And he said, "Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?"
Why did God have to enter into a solemn covenant with Abraham when the "Promised Land" would come into play some 680 years from the time of the Promised land being described in Gen_15:17-21 and the possessions of the Promised land would be given as a possession to Abraham's descendants for a period of time, up to 70 AD after which God would cause them to be scattered through the whole earth.
Shalom
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