Is Paul in error when he states.....

[guysmith]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Galations 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John states:
Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

 

[tomwebster]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Galations 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John states:
Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

Right now during the Dispensation of Grace we are all one in Christ. John, in Revelation, takes use to the millennium, which is the Dispensation of Judgment, and then we are under the laws of the Kingdom.

 

[TexUs]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Galations 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John states:
Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

That number might also be taken symbolically to represent the totality of the church. I personally disagree with this because there's a "great multitude" and others spoken of that AREN'T part of the 144,000.

Personally I believe there is no special status with Israel anymore.
I believe God has set aside his remnant (Paul is an example of one), and from this is where he'll pull the 144,000.

Keep in mind that remnant won't be "Jews"... God will smack them upside the head like he did Paul and get their attention to Christ.

 

[Disciple]

The children of Isreal are Gods elected children, Jew, Greek, bond free, asian or black. There bible also says 'they are not all Isreal which were born of Isreal' the children of Faith are the seed of Abraham, Isreal, Gods chosen children.

 

[TexUs]

The children of Isreal are Gods elected children, Jew, Greek, bond free, asian or black. There bible also says 'they are not all Isreal which were born of Isreal' the children of Faith are the seed of Abraham, Isreal, Gods chosen children.

Yes. I agree.
But there's also a remnant, Romans 11.

 

[Martin W.]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Galations 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John states:
Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

Hello Guy

The message to the Galatians is that they received the Spirit (salvation) by believing what they heard , not by the law. Read chapter 3 again.

Some Galatians were trying to bring back the importance of the law . Thus the rebuke from the author of Galatians. He said that under the original promise to Abraham(grace) both Jew and Gentile are alike (under Christ) (Under grace) . The law came much later than the promise (to Abraham) . We are both alike under grace (the Jew with the law) and (the Gentile without the law ) . Both are equal (under Christ) (under grace) That is the point.

As far as how that pertains to Rev 7 I think you are trying to blend two completely different things.

Revelation 7 is about a time when God selects 144,000 people from the original 12 tribes of Israel to be super evangelists in the last days. I expect they will be used in Israel (the Nation) with the rest of the world listening also. I expect they will proclaim Christ .

God does again deal with Israel (the nation) in a unique way in the future and he selects a unique group from the original 12 tribes. I think we must believe revelation 7 exactly the way it is written

Most of us have difficulty understanding and comprehending this unique Israel end time event.

But for 1900 years Christians also had difficulty understanding ANY prophecy regarding Israel. The nation was long forgotten until 1948. That is why Christianity has all those strange teachings about Israel. They tried to make it something it was not. Some still do it today.

Just because we humans have difficulty understanding the future does not change the fact that God will do it the way he tells it in the bible. The mistakes come from us , not God. Christianity is overflowing with mistakes regarding Israel.

It may go completely against our wishful Christian desires but we must acknowledge God retains some special end time plans for his chosen nation Israel. Even though they remain in unbelief from our vantage point.

I have know of atheist criminal men who have repented on their deathbeds and finally accepted Christ because of a single christian visitor to a hospital. . Maybe God is going to give Israel and the world one last chance by sending the 144,000 . That is how it looks to me.

God will not abandon his covenant with Israel , any sooner than he will abandon his covenant with those of us who are in Christ Jesus.

 

[TexUs]

I fail to see the special status. Paul is clear that Israel is more than just the flesh and blood descendants and nationality. Even the Old Testament tells us this.

The original covenant was given to [God's People]. More than just the flesh and blood could become [God's People]. [God's People] were defined by those that followed his laws. Those that followed his laws eventually came to be known as [Israel].
Christ came. Christ fulfilled that law, now it's a covenant of grace. [God's People][Israel] is still alive today as [God's People][Israel]. This includes anyone with faith in Christ- and this is exactly what Paul states.

If you are a Christian, you are of Israel. Period. There is no "special" Israel status of Israel the nation anymore.

"Jew" is not "Israel". That seems to be a misconception nowadays. Why? Well some of [God's People] deviated from his plan when Christ came, broke the covenant, and continued in their old ways. These are still identified as "Jews" today. They are not "Israel".
Now adding to complexity does there seem to be a remnant of these "Jews" that God will later bring into "Israel"? Yes... Paul was one of them.

So when you read Revelation 7 be aware that it's talking about Israel, and not the "Jews".

 

[Joshua David]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John states:
Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with me on this, but I figured I would tell you my opinion on this question. I believe that Galatians was written for the church, and is therefore doctrinally for the Age of Grace in which there is no distinction between the Jew or the Gentile. While in the Revelations, we are not in the Age of Grace but are in the last 'week' of the Age of the Law. Where God's focus is once again back on the Children of Israel.

Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with me on this, but I figured I would tell you my opinion on this question. I believe that Galatians was written for the church, and is therefore doctrinally for the Age of Grace in which there is no distinction between the Jew or the Gentile. While in the Revelations, we are not in the Age of Grace but are in the last 'week' of the Age of the Law. Where God's focus is once again back on the Children of Israel.

Joshua David

Close jd, but we will then be in the start of "judgment," "Where God's focus is once again back on the Children of Israel. "

 

[Joshua David]

Close jd, but we will then be in the start of "judgment," "Where God's focus is once again back on the Children of Israel. "

Well I see the Church and the State of Israel as being distinct from one another.

Joshua David

 

[Duckybill]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Another attack on Paul's writings.

1 Corinthians 14:37-38 (NKJV)
[sup]37 [/sup]If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that THE THINGS WHICH I WRITE TO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. [sup]38 [/sup]But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received THE WORD OF GOD which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, THE WORD OF GOD, which also effectively works in you who believe.

 

[tomwebster]

Well I see the Church and the State of Israel as being distinct from one another.

Joshua David

I was commenting on this line of your post:
"for the Age of Grace in which there is no distinction between the Jew or the Gentile. While in the Revelations, we are not in the Age of Grace but are in the last 'week' of the Age of the Law." The Administration of Grace becomes the Administration of Judgment.

 

[Joshua David]

I was commenting on this line of your post:
"for the Age of Grace in which there is no distinction between the Jew or the Gentile. While in the Revelations, we are not in the Age of Grace but are in the last 'week' of the Age of the Law." The Administration of Grace becomes the Administration of Judgment.

Since one of the names of the Tribulation Period is the Time of Jacob's trouble, I believe that the beginning of the Tribulation will be the start of 'Judgement'. I see the Church's judgment at the Bema seat in Heaven, and Israel's Judgment on earth.

The Church is not the same as Israel, and Israel is not the same as the Church. The full Mystery of the Church was hidden in the Old Testament. When the Jews rejected the Messiah, Israel was set aside temporarily. This was promised to Israel that this would happen. But God also promised that He would bring them back and start to deal with them again. The Covenants that were given to Israel are for Israel alone. Yes, the Church has been given promises that are for her alone, but we must not be confused between the two.

This is just one of the reasons that I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Because during the age of the church, otherwise known as the Age of Grace, there is not difference between the Jew and the Gentile. But we see in the book of Revelation that God is dealing with Israel as a nation again. Before Chapter 4, we see the letters to the churches. Then after John is caught up, we see the wording change. It goes from the churches to Israel and the Saint's. I believe that their will be people saved during the Tribulation, and be a tribulation saint, and There will be Jews saved during the tribulation and be "Spiritual Israel", but neither of these groups will be in the group that makes up the Bride of Christ, or the Church.

Joshua David

 

[Pato]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Galations 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John states:
Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

Hi, Paul is correct in what he stated. I do not clearly understand what you mean by "implying a difference" in Revelation.

 

[rockytopva]

Referring to Galatians 3:28... When we get saved we are all one in Jesus Christ. Jews, gentiles, red, yellow, black or white... There is no distinction among us when we are born again.

Revelation 7:4 has nothing to do with Galatians 3:28. There apparently are 144,000 Israelis at the end of time worthy for heaven.

 

[[email protected]]

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

The operative word here isn't 'JEW', it's ALL.

There is an amazing amount of anti-semitism when it comes to interpreting Paul and the revelator. Mostly it comes from a two thousand year old sense of exclusivism.

Christian exclusivism.

It's really just a naked form of spiritual pride and as such is not true. Neither does it have any power in the Kingdom of God.

Is there a difference between Jews and gentiles? The real underlying question here is not of differences but whether Jews will go to Hell because they have rejected Christ. That's the real question and the answer is as difficult to swallow as the statement of the true question.

Because of this sense of exclusivism, many Christians deny that Jews will inherit ANYTHING from God, despite the fact that the Almighty has placed them back on the soil of earth in the place that He originally gave them. Because of this sense of exclusivism, all manner of hate has been focused upon the Jewish people. It is the underlying foundation for western national policies of Jewish persecution from the middle ages to NAZI Germany. Rising levels of anti-semitism in the twenty first century testify that it's alive and well.

Will the Jews be saved? Yes. There is a spiritual principle at work here that few will admit to. It's called the principle of remnants. When Elijah dispaired of his life and complained that he alone served God, the Bible records that over seven thousand Jews "did not bow to Baal". (1 Kings 19). Paul also wrote that a remnant of Jews would be saved (Rom 9:27 & Rom 11:5). Elijah needed a word from God to see the truth, but today we only have to look as far as the messianic Jewish movement to see a part of it. Nevertheless God judges the heart of a man. It is not for us as Christians to condemn the Jew, but for us to point the way to their King and the saviour of Jew and gentile alike.

With regard to Israel, it should be remembered that scripture records God's promise to save Israel alone among all the nations. That means that Our Father is doing a work with Israel unto sanctification that is unique among all the families of earth. I might go so far to say that it parallels the same work of sanctification that is seen in the lives of individual believers. Be patient, God is not done with -Israel- yet.

Is there a difference between Jew and gentile? Not all Jews will be saved AND NOT ALL WHO CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIANS will be saved either.

Christian exclusivity is a demonic illusion.

It is faith in Christ alone that matters and that quality is shared by the faithful remnant these days; Jew and gentile alike.

 

[aspen]

Is Paul in error when he states.....

Galations 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John states:
Revelation 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

....impying that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles.

Are we all one in Christ or not?

Paul was addressing prejudice and elitism in the early church. Jewish converts and gentile converts were not seeing eye to eye - this was a constant problem in the early church, which started out as a Jewish sect. Paul, the champion for the gentiles was reminding the church that God looks at the heart, not the customs, nationality or culture.

 

[lawrance]

Paul was addressing prejudice and elitism in the early church. Jewish converts and gentile converts were not seeing eye to eye - this was a constant problem in the early church, which started out as a Jewish sect. Paul, the champion for the gentiles was reminding the church that God looks at the heart, not the customs, nationality or culture.

As to the which started out as a Jewish sect ?

I would say that the Jews running the show were not of the God of Israel at all, but a Jewish sect.

But the Christians were of the God of Israel as some of the Jewish people could comprehend that Jesus Christ was the one, and they were the ones who created the Christian Church mainly by themselves.
The Israel Jews created the Catholic Church.

 

[veteran]

Hello Guy

The message to the Galatians is that they received the Spirit (salvation) by believing what they heard , not by the law. Read chapter 3 again.

Some Galatians were trying to bring back the importance of the law . Thus the rebuke from the author of Galatians. He said that under the original promise to Abraham(grace) both Jew and Gentile are alike (under Christ) (Under grace) . The law came much later than the promise (to Abraham) . We are both alike under grace (the Jew with the law) and (the Gentile without the law ) . Both are equal (under Christ) (under grace) That is the point.

As far as how that pertains to Rev 7 I think you are trying to blend two completely different things.

Revelation 7 is about a time when God selects 144,000 people from the original 12 tribes of Israel to be super evangelists in the last days. I expect they will be used in Israel (the Nation) with the rest of the world listening also. I expect they will proclaim Christ .

God does again deal with Israel (the nation) in a unique way in the future and he selects a unique group from the original 12 tribes. I think we must believe revelation 7 exactly the way it is written

Most of us have difficulty understanding and comprehending this unique Israel end time event.

But for 1900 years Christians also had difficulty understanding ANY prophecy regarding Israel. The nation was long forgotten until 1948. That is why Christianity has all those strange teachings about Israel. They tried to make it something it was not. Some still do it today.

Just because we humans have difficulty understanding the future does not change the fact that God will do it the way he tells it in the bible. The mistakes come from us , not God. Christianity is overflowing with mistakes regarding Israel.

It may go completely against our wishful Christian desires but we must acknowledge God retains some special end time plans for his chosen nation Israel. Even though they remain in unbelief from our vantage point.

I have know of atheist criminal men who have repented on their deathbeds and finally accepted Christ because of a single christian visitor to a hospital. . Maybe God is going to give Israel and the world one last chance by sending the 144,000 . That is how it looks to me.

God will not abandon his covenant with Israel , any sooner than he will abandon his covenant with those of us who are in Christ Jesus.

Not bad!

I might add though, that none of those 144,000 of Rev.7 represent unbelieving Jews.

There's two main branches of Israelites per The Bible and history. The ten tribes lost their heritage as Israel and were scattered unrecognized among the Gentiles. Many of them think they are Gentiles today. In other words, lot of them are believing Christians not associated with today's Jews.

So I believe the 144,000 called out of the 12 tribes will definitely also involve those of scattered Israel among the Christian nations giving witness. 3 of those represent believing Jews, and the rest believers of the ten tribes of Israel scattered among the Gentiles which are unknown as Israelites.

In Rev.7:9 forward, is a testimony about a great multitude of Gentile believers that will also give a witness.

Yet both... are one in Christ Jesus, and represent His elect in the last days, His Church.

The whole Rev.7 chapter is a Message about those whom God seals with His seal. That sealing is by The Holy Spirit per Ezek.9 and 2 Cor.1:22.