Is Sunday-observance the same as Sabbath-rest?

[Wick Stick]

The Sabbath was never for the world, but only for Jews who at the time were privileged to know that God had a plan for our redemption. Once that redemption came in the form of Jesus' death and resurrection, the Law of Sabbath was no longer needed.

That... doesn't really hold water... historically. A bunch of other cultures practiced a Sabbath, some of them well before Moses.

And a day of rest is still beneficial. 7-day work-weeks are a bad thing.

It had only reminded Israel that their work was made acceptable by concession, and not by right. The Law of Moses served to show their condemnation until Christ had issued their full pardon.

The Law of Moses is therefore no longer needed. We may need rest, but we get it each day at night, and whenever we feel we need a break.

I'm not completely with you on this abrogation of the entire Law. I see where the Levitical priesthood was annulled, along with the laws and customs associated with its practice. I don't know that the 10 commandments fall into that category. God gave them BEFORE the Levitical priesthood existed...

 

[Randy Kluth]

That... doesn't really hold water... historically. A bunch of other cultures practiced a Sabbath, some of them well before Moses.

I was referring to the Hebrew Sabbath--not other cultural practices! Historically, entering any requirements, borrowed from the Law, into Christianity has been viewed as heresy by the orthodox Church.

And a day of rest is still beneficial. 7-day work-weeks are a bad thing.

Nobody is arguing the benefits of rest.

I'm not completely with you on this abrogation of the entire Law.

Yes, that's the whole problem. When you enter into the New Covenant even part of the Law of Moses you confuse the two very different covenants.

I see where the Levitical priesthood was annulled, along with the laws and customs associated with its practice. I don't know that the 10 commandments fall into that category. God gave them BEFORE the Levitical priesthood existed...

No, the 10 Commandments came packed together with the entire Law of Moses. It was one Law. If the Law of Moses was abrogated, then all of it was abrogated. To introduce some of the parts of the Law into a new covenant, a whole new covenant would have to be established. But the New Covenant did *not* introduce Sabbath Law into its agreement with the Church.

 

[Bob Estey]

I know there are already a few threads on Saturday/Sabbath stuff, but I had a question that came out of that discussion that seems to deserve separate consideration.

Is Sunday-observance the same as Sabbath-rest?

There seems to be much ballyhoo about Sunday replacing Saturday, but that doesn't make sense if they aren't the same thing. And... I don't think they are. At least they shouldn't be. They certainly didn't start out to be...

The commandment for Sabbath is a worker's right. The Sabbath is for REST. The intention of the commandment seems to be that workers are not worked to death.

The New Testament practice of observing The Lord's Day was NOT for rest. It was for the church's business - the collection and distribution of alms, teaching, prayer, the sharing of testimonies and psalms - all the things that we normally associate with church.

While the day is nominally the day of the Lord's resurrection, history tells us that this timing was also chosen so that the assembly would compete with the pagan practice of Market Day in the New Testament era. The Greeks and Romans assembled at the town center on the 1st day of the week to sell their goods, including the meats-sacrificed-to-idols that Paul addresses at some length. By meeting outside the city, the church assured that its members couldn't attend Market Day and limited the purchase of idol-meat and other items dedicated to demons. It also had the happy side-effect of forcing Christians to give business to each other.

Today, we still have a two-day weekend, with one day being for REST (Saturday) and one for SERVICES (Sunday). And I don't think this represents a replacement of Sabbath-rest, because the two things are not the same.

Rest is rest, though I muster up enough energy to go to church, when I can.

 

[quietthinker]

You are wrong. It is the administration that is wrong because it has been supplanted by Christ's better Redemption. The Law left intact human condemnation despite all of its means of temporary redemption. It could never redeem permanently. Only Christ could do that.

Paul goes to great length to explain that sin alone is not the problem, but more, the *guilt* of sin. That is only removed by a new administration, leaving the Law behind in favor of *Christ alone.* You must ignore Paul's teaching in Galatians and the strong message of a 2nd administration in the book of Hebrews!

In my view, extremely poor rational Randy.

Do you really think God would deliberately give the Hebrews Laws, even write them on stone with his own finger amidst a spectacular show of light and sound and rumblings, that he knew were faulty? Nah, nah Randy, you've dialled the wrong number on that one......and my guess is, because you find the 4th Commandment does not suit your desires.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In my view, extremely poor rational Randy.

Do you really think God would deliberately give the Hebrews Laws, even write them on stone with his own finger amidst a spectacular show of light and sound and rumblings, that he knew were faulty? Nah, nah Randy, you've dialled the wrong number on that one......and my guess is, because you find the 4th Commandment does not suit your desires.

I really don't care how you judge me. I'm judged by the Scriptures, and there I find you're wrong--the Law is an *old* administration. Am I making that up? Is that *my* faulty rationale? No, it is what the authors of Scripture have said!...

Heb 8.6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Why don't you criticize the Scriptures? I base my arguments not on my reasoning but on what they explicitly say!

I didn't say the Law of Moses was faulty. I said it was a form of "temporary redemption" that could not achieve "final redemption" or "eternal redemption." That is, in fact, what the Scriptures mean when they discard the "old" administration of Law for the new one, which is the Gospel of Christ alone.

John 1.17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[quietthinker]

I really don't care how you judge me. I'm judged by the Scriptures, and there I find you're wrong--the Law is an *old* administration. Am I making that up? Is that *my* faulty rationale? No, it is what the authors of Scripture have said!...

Heb 8.6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Why don't you criticize the Scriptures? I base my arguments not on my reasoning but on what they explicitly say!

I didn't say the Law of Moses was faulty. I said it was a form of "temporary redemption" that could not achieve "final redemption" or "eternal redemption." That is, in fact, what the Scriptures mean when they discard the "old" administration of Law for the new one, which is the Gospel of Christ alone.

John 1.17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

I see you are not able to see that Jesus amplified God's Commandments. He never diminished them.
Instead, you take the tack which enables you in your own mind to break that Law. It is the same tack the Pharisees took the which Jesus chastised them.

 

[Wick Stick]

No, the 10 Commandments came packed together with the entire Law of Moses. It was one Law. If the Law of Moses was abrogated, then all of it was abrogated. To introduce some of the parts of the Law into a new covenant, a whole new covenant would have to be established. But the New Covenant did *not* introduce Sabbath Law into its agreement with the Church.

That's just wrong. God gave the 10 Commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Then Moses came down and found them worshiping the golden calf, and there was suddenly a need for someone to intercede for the people.

The Levitical priesthood and the swearing of the covenant came AFTER the 10 Commandments were given.

 

[Wick Stick]

Rest is rest, though I muster up enough energy to go to church, when I can.

There's a pretty simple argument out there that SERVICES and REST are incompatible.

 

[Hobie]

You apparently didn't read the opening post and just gave a stock answer.

It's not an either/or... we get two weekend days. One for rest and one for assembly.

Only the Sabbath is given, the first day was picked up from the sun god festival and as tradition brought in. But it was never given or blessed or made holy by God, that claim is from the fall into apostasy as foretold and is a tradition of man, so the choice stands..

 

[Wick Stick]

Only the Sabbath is given, the first day was picked up from the sun god festival and as tradition brought in. But it was never given or blessed or made holy by God, that claim is from the fall into apostasy as foretold and is a tradition of man, so the choice stands..

I didn't make that claim. More stock answers from the copy/paste king.

 

[Hobie]

I didn't make that claim. More stock answers from the copy/paste king.

Yet you go with it, cannot sit on the fence on this truth..

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see you are not able to see that Jesus amplified God's Commandments. He never diminished them.
Instead, you take the tack which enables you in your own mind to break that Law. It is the same tack the Pharisees took the which Jesus chastised them.

You are trying to teach error. We are *not* under the Law of Moses. We are under commandments, but not commandments that are situated under the Law of Moses.

That is made perfectly clear in the NT writings. You can believe what you want, but it is pure rationalization in my opinion.

You want to earn points with God by keeping certain religious rituals. Nothing but what comes from Christ will earn you favor with God. Christ comes as a free gift when you commit your whole life to Him--not just Saturdays or Sundays. You belong to Him 7 days a week, if you've given your life to Him at all.

 

[Hobie]

You are trying to teach error. We are *not* under the Law of Moses. We are under commandments, but not commandments that are situated under the Law of Moses.

That is made perfectly clear in the NT writings. You can believe what you want, but it is pure rationalization in my opinion.

You want to earn points with God by keeping certain religious rituals. Nothing but what comes from Christ will earn you favor with God. Christ comes as a free gift when you commit your whole life to Him--not just Saturdays or Sundays. You belong to Him 7 days a week, if you've given your life to Him at all.

But what did God say of the six other days, they were given for work, only one day was set aside and made the Sabbath...

 

[Bob Estey]

There's a pretty simple argument out there that SERVICES and REST are incompatible.

I don't imagine anyone is going to lie in bed all day, unless they are sick.

 

[Behold]

The Law left intact human condemnation despite all of its means of temporary redemption. It could never redeem permanently. Only Christ could do that.

Yes.

"Christ has redeemed (the born again) from the CURSE...OF... THE....LAW".

The born again are "NOT under the LAW...but UNDER Grace".

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes.

"Christ has redeemed (the born again) from the CURSE...OF... THE....LAW".

The born again are "NOT under the LAW...but UNDER Grace".

Thank you! Why there is this compulsion to get back under the Law--even part of it, astounds me! Christians should never feel condemned by the Law, as long as they choose to live by Christ. His perfect record covers all of our sins. Choosing him puts us on his path. We could never merit it on our own ability or record.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But what did God say of the six other days, they were given for work, only one day was set aside and made the Sabbath...

The Law was given to show human responsibility before God is important but incapable of achieving eternal redemption. We could please God, but we could not undo our record of failure in light of the perfect Law.

The fact Israel was required to take one day off each week indicated that there was something wrong with their work, which could not merit Eternal Life. They had to cease and desist from working each week to show this. There would've been no hold put on their work if what they did was perfectly clean and acceptable before God.

Today, in the New Covenant, we do not place any emphasis on our own work, though we remain responsible before God to obey Him. Our merit before God is now fixed firmly in Christ alone, whose work is always acceptable before God--7 days a week.

Our flaws are not accounted against us. God, when He looks at us, sees the one we chose as our redeemer. We are righteous before God 7 days a week because we have chosen to live by him, and not by our own abilities or record.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's just wrong. God gave the 10 Commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Then Moses came down and found them worshiping the golden calf, and there was suddenly a need for someone to intercede for the people.

The Levitical priesthood and the swearing of the covenant came AFTER the 10 Commandments were given.

The 10 Commandments were placed in the ark of the covenant, which was part of the legal superstructure of the Law of Moses. It was all one Covenant.

The same cannot be said of the New Covenant, which was ratified by the blood of Christ on the cross. There was no temple but his own body. And the fact the veil was torn indicated that by the death of his body all legal requirements were terminated and re-directed to Christ in his resurrection.

We now live by Christ's merit. And being perfect he did not need to live by the Law. His was a new agreement. The New Covenant had no Sabbath restrictions.

Deut 10.3 So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands. 4 The Lord wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the Lord gave them to me. 5 Then I came back down the mountain and put the tablets in the ark I had made, as the Lord commanded me, and they are there now.

Heb 10.19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Wick Stick]

I don't imagine anyone is going to lie in bed all day, unless they are sick.

Not what I was suggesting. I'm just saying - if what you're using that day for is a weight for you to shoulder, then you're doing it wrong.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes.

"Christ has redeemed (the born again) from the CURSE...OF... THE....LAW".

The born again are "NOT under the LAW...but UNDER Grace".

What the scriptures say and how you understand them is incompatible, Behold.
The Law promises many good things as well as abysmal consequences when broken. You might familiarise yourself with Leviticus 26 to start with.