I would like some discussion regarding the free gift of salvation.Most Christians will readily tell you that salvation is free through Jesus Christ.Where do we get the idea of Christ paying the penalty of sin ?As I understand it, God (the Father) is not so easy to get along with. Someone had to pay for salvation with their life. Turns out it was Christ.The substitutionary death of Christ. Where does that idea come from ?it appears to be pretty much accepted right across the spectrum of Christian thought, but how can such an idea be rational.If salvation is free in Christ, and "I and the Father are one" why is the Father demanding blood for salvation, and Christ is able to gift it to us? I have done much reading on the subject and it appears just to be a given that is how it works, but is it really rational.Could it be that Christ died to demonstrate the awful consequences of separation form God. "My God why hast thou forsaken me" and for Him to come down from heaven in the form of a man was indeed a sacrifice in it's self.That is what took His life, separation from the life giver.Without God life is not possible. He is the sustainer of us all.It would appear to me that he lived in order to demonstrate what God (the Father) is really like, and He died to show us where separation from God (sin) ultimately ends.Could it be that we (Christians in general) are lacking understanding re the character of God (the Father) Having a picture of this difficult to get along with person who is only able to be pleased by killing an innocent.
Is the Gospel really free.
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(MurrayJames;51470)
I would like some discussion regarding the free gift of salvation.Most Christians will readily tell you that salvation is free through Jesus Christ.Where do we get the idea of Christ paying the penalty of sin ?As I understand it, God (the Father) is not so easy to get along with. Someone had to pay for salvation with their life. Turns out it was Christ.The substitutionary death of Christ. Where does that idea come from ?it appears to be pretty much accepted right across the spectrum of Christian thought, but how can such an idea be rational.If salvation is free in Christ, and "I and the Father are one" why is the Father demanding blood for salvation, and Christ is able to gift it to us? I have done much reading on the subject and it appears just to be a given that is how it works, but is it really rational.Could it be that Christ died to demonstrate the awful consequences of separation form God. "My God why hast thou forsaken me" and for Him to come down from heaven in the form of a man was indeed a sacrifice in it's self.That is what took His life, separation from the life giver.Without God life is not possible. He is the sustainer of us all.It would appear to me that he lived in order to demonstrate what God (the Father) is really like, and He died to show us where separation from God (sin) ultimately ends.Could it be that we (Christians in general) are lacking understanding re the character of God (the Father) Having a picture of this difficult to get along with person who is only able to be pleased by killing an innocent.
I don't really know what your are trying to say. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, but it is the glory of God to those who are being saved.Yes, salvation is a free gift. Just as by one man sin entered the world, and all men and women have thereby sinned (for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God), so God also saw fit to see sin go out by one man, making many sinless by Him.Salvation is a free gift to all that believe. Jesus died for the sins of the world. It is finished.That being said... yes... Christ's life and death teaches us many things. Most importantly though, to free us from sin... and it is a free gift.
I would like some discussion regarding the free gift of salvation.Most Christians will readily tell you that salvation is free through Jesus Christ.Where do we get the idea of Christ paying the penalty of sin ?As I understand it, God (the Father) is not so easy to get along with. Someone had to pay for salvation with their life. Turns out it was Christ.The substitutionary death of Christ. Where does that idea come from ?it appears to be pretty much accepted right across the spectrum of Christian thought, but how can such an idea be rational.If salvation is free in Christ, and "I and the Father are one" why is the Father demanding blood for salvation, and Christ is able to gift it to us? I have done much reading on the subject and it appears just to be a given that is how it works, but is it really rational.Could it be that Christ died to demonstrate the awful consequences of separation form God. "My God why hast thou forsaken me" and for Him to come down from heaven in the form of a man was indeed a sacrifice in it's self.That is what took His life, separation from the life giver.Without God life is not possible. He is the sustainer of us all.It would appear to me that he lived in order to demonstrate what God (the Father) is really like, and He died to show us where separation from God (sin) ultimately ends.Could it be that we (Christians in general) are lacking understanding re the character of God (the Father) Having a picture of this difficult to get along with person who is only able to be pleased by killing an innocent.
I don't really know what your are trying to say. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, but it is the glory of God to those who are being saved.Yes, salvation is a free gift. Just as by one man sin entered the world, and all men and women have thereby sinned (for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God), so God also saw fit to see sin go out by one man, making many sinless by Him.Salvation is a free gift to all that believe. Jesus died for the sins of the world. It is finished.That being said... yes... Christ's life and death teaches us many things. Most importantly though, to free us from sin... and it is a free gift.
Thanks for your reply, but you have not addressed the core of my questionThe substitutionary death of Christ. Where does that idea come from ?
(MurrayJames;51520)
Thanks for your reply, but you have not addressed the core of my questionThe substitutionary death of Christ. Where does that idea come from ?
Hrm. Well, perhaps the fact that I am the only one that has replied in this thread is reason the believe that you didn't state your question clearly. I'm still not sure what you want to know. If you are asking where did the teaching that Jesus died for the sins of all people, in place of us... read the Bible, it's in there.The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is the power of God to those who are being saved. It is the truth of God.
Thanks for your reply, but you have not addressed the core of my questionThe substitutionary death of Christ. Where does that idea come from ?
Hrm. Well, perhaps the fact that I am the only one that has replied in this thread is reason the believe that you didn't state your question clearly. I'm still not sure what you want to know. If you are asking where did the teaching that Jesus died for the sins of all people, in place of us... read the Bible, it's in there.The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is the power of God to those who are being saved. It is the truth of God.
tim_from_pa
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The substitutionary death of Christ. Where does that idea come from ?
That idea was prophesied by the repetitious practice of sacrificing. Animals were slaughtered and blood was spilled to show that a life was given in exchange for another. The Lord clearly said in the OT that sacrifice and blood was needed for remission of sins. A prime example (amongst many sacrifices) is the Passover sacrifice. The death angel would Pass Over the household that slaughtered the lamb and put the blood on the door posts and lintels.In the NT, Christ was clearly defined and shown to be "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world". So, Passover foreshadowed the Coming Redeemer who would die on that very same day for everyone's sins.This is why it is very important to know the entire OT. There is nothing "new" in the New Testament.
That idea was prophesied by the repetitious practice of sacrificing. Animals were slaughtered and blood was spilled to show that a life was given in exchange for another. The Lord clearly said in the OT that sacrifice and blood was needed for remission of sins. A prime example (amongst many sacrifices) is the Passover sacrifice. The death angel would Pass Over the household that slaughtered the lamb and put the blood on the door posts and lintels.In the NT, Christ was clearly defined and shown to be "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world". So, Passover foreshadowed the Coming Redeemer who would die on that very same day for everyone's sins.This is why it is very important to know the entire OT. There is nothing "new" in the New Testament.
Well, I really don't know how to state it more clearly, treeoflife. Perhaps most on this forum are more concerned with issues around masturbation if stats are any indication.Thanks for your reply tim-from-pa That goes some way toward an explanation.
(MurrayJames;51608)
Well, I really don't know how to state it more clearly, treeoflife. Perhaps most on this forum are more concerned with issues around masturbation if stats are any indication.Thanks for your reply tim-from-pa That goes some way toward an explanation.
Well, if stats are any indication, the thread on masterbation was discussing whether or not such an act is sinful or not. Yes, sin concerns us. And, if stats are an indication, there are a great number of threads that are talked about a great deal more than that thread. Perhaps you ask a question like "Is the Gospel really free", throwing doubt to God's plainly stated Word that it is free, merely for shock value. Then, summerizing your thread with, "Could it be that we (Christians in general) are lacking understanding re the character of God (the Father). Having a picture of this difficult to get along with person who is only able to be pleased by killing an innocent."I don't find it difficult to get along with God at all. Perhaps you do, because if words are any indication, you have clearly not understood or recieved the message of salvation, a free gift, that we have in the Jesus (the Gospel). I don't think *we* are lacking understanding of the character of God at all... I think you likely are, however. The fact that you don't know how, or why Christ would come as a substitute for our death, or where the "idea" comes from does show that you are lacking some understanding. Perhaps that is why your are asking... or perhaps you only ask because you think you know and believe something contrary.You know how I found out about Jesus? I read the Bible. I prayed, and I believed. All who seek find. All who knock, the door will be opened to them.Jesus is the Son of God, and God sent Him into the world not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He has paid for the sin debt owed by every man, woman, or child, and it is the gift of eternal life for all who believe.
Well, I really don't know how to state it more clearly, treeoflife. Perhaps most on this forum are more concerned with issues around masturbation if stats are any indication.Thanks for your reply tim-from-pa That goes some way toward an explanation.
Well, if stats are any indication, the thread on masterbation was discussing whether or not such an act is sinful or not. Yes, sin concerns us. And, if stats are an indication, there are a great number of threads that are talked about a great deal more than that thread. Perhaps you ask a question like "Is the Gospel really free", throwing doubt to God's plainly stated Word that it is free, merely for shock value. Then, summerizing your thread with, "Could it be that we (Christians in general) are lacking understanding re the character of God (the Father). Having a picture of this difficult to get along with person who is only able to be pleased by killing an innocent."I don't find it difficult to get along with God at all. Perhaps you do, because if words are any indication, you have clearly not understood or recieved the message of salvation, a free gift, that we have in the Jesus (the Gospel). I don't think *we* are lacking understanding of the character of God at all... I think you likely are, however. The fact that you don't know how, or why Christ would come as a substitute for our death, or where the "idea" comes from does show that you are lacking some understanding. Perhaps that is why your are asking... or perhaps you only ask because you think you know and believe something contrary.You know how I found out about Jesus? I read the Bible. I prayed, and I believed. All who seek find. All who knock, the door will be opened to them.Jesus is the Son of God, and God sent Him into the world not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He has paid for the sin debt owed by every man, woman, or child, and it is the gift of eternal life for all who believe.
Tree of Life...You lack any understanding. You are judgmental and have no idea of the essence of my question. You don't have an answer because you don't even understand the question.If you don't understand the question then don't start being judgmental. Let someone else answer. If no one answers that is fine. Don't assume to judge my Christian standing. How presumptuous of you to make assumptions like you have.
(MurrayJames;51729)
Tree of Life...You lack any understanding. You are judgmental and have no idea of the essence of my question. You don't have an answer because you don't even understand the question.If you don't understand the question then don't start being judgmental. Let someone else answer. If no one answers that is fine. Don't assume to judge my Christian standing. How presumptuous of you to make assumptions like you have.
I have whatever understanding God gives me, and whatever your words bring to light. You're right... I have made judgments... so be judged. A spiritual man makes judgments on all things, but he is judged rightly by no man. I have not made assumptions... I have judged according to your words. If I judge wrongly, then I'm willing to own up to that someday."Is the Gospel really free?"Is it, really free? Boy... I don't know. Is it? Is the Gospel REALLY free? I don't know... what a deep question... mysterious...Yes it is is free. What purpose would such a question as this have? Perhaps you need to learn to reword what you are going to say if you don't mean it, otherwise, expect to be judged by it.On the matter of the death of Christ showing us where sin ultimately leads us... absolutely, I agree. That's exactly what Christ's death demonstrates. It shows us the sickness of sin and the danger of it. Sin is not bad because it is forbidden... sin is forbidden because it is bad.On the matter of the substitutionary death of Christ... dying for our sins, in place of us... this comes clearly from the Word of God. Learn it and obey. Christ died in our place, and we are saved by grace through faith... through the "substitutionary" death of Christ. We do not get to heaven by any works of our own, of any kind. It is by grace, through faith, and it is Christ's "substitutionary" death (His work... God's sacrifice) that alone makes us worthy. Without this, we are nothing.
Tree of Life...You lack any understanding. You are judgmental and have no idea of the essence of my question. You don't have an answer because you don't even understand the question.If you don't understand the question then don't start being judgmental. Let someone else answer. If no one answers that is fine. Don't assume to judge my Christian standing. How presumptuous of you to make assumptions like you have.
I have whatever understanding God gives me, and whatever your words bring to light. You're right... I have made judgments... so be judged. A spiritual man makes judgments on all things, but he is judged rightly by no man. I have not made assumptions... I have judged according to your words. If I judge wrongly, then I'm willing to own up to that someday."Is the Gospel really free?"Is it, really free? Boy... I don't know. Is it? Is the Gospel REALLY free? I don't know... what a deep question... mysterious...Yes it is is free. What purpose would such a question as this have? Perhaps you need to learn to reword what you are going to say if you don't mean it, otherwise, expect to be judged by it.On the matter of the death of Christ showing us where sin ultimately leads us... absolutely, I agree. That's exactly what Christ's death demonstrates. It shows us the sickness of sin and the danger of it. Sin is not bad because it is forbidden... sin is forbidden because it is bad.On the matter of the substitutionary death of Christ... dying for our sins, in place of us... this comes clearly from the Word of God. Learn it and obey. Christ died in our place, and we are saved by grace through faith... through the "substitutionary" death of Christ. We do not get to heaven by any works of our own, of any kind. It is by grace, through faith, and it is Christ's "substitutionary" death (His work... God's sacrifice) that alone makes us worthy. Without this, we are nothing.
(MurrayJames;51470)
Could it be that Christ died to demonstrate the awful consequences of separation form God.
I think that's part of what happened with Jesus' death. But I don't think that's why he died. Jesus had to die because someone had to be held responsible for all of our sins. Now on the one hand that seems pretty harsh. After all, why would someone have to pay? Can't God just forgive our sins and be done with it?The answer, I think, is that if he simply forgave our sins, he would lose out on a piece of who he is. God is more than just love or just grace. He's also truth and justice (although not the American Way
). If Jesus didn't pay for our sins God would have had to have sacrificed both justice and truth by ignoring our sins. And that goes against who he is. So God did the one thing that would solve the problem - in love he sacrificed himself so that we could get to know him. So no, the Gospel isn't really free - Jesus had to pay a heavy price. But by doing so, we are able to freely claim the Gospel and a relationship with God.
Could it be that Christ died to demonstrate the awful consequences of separation form God.
I think that's part of what happened with Jesus' death. But I don't think that's why he died. Jesus had to die because someone had to be held responsible for all of our sins. Now on the one hand that seems pretty harsh. After all, why would someone have to pay? Can't God just forgive our sins and be done with it?The answer, I think, is that if he simply forgave our sins, he would lose out on a piece of who he is. God is more than just love or just grace. He's also truth and justice (although not the American Way
As I understand it, WE are the ones who ar not so easy to get along with...not God! In order to understand the purpose of Christ's ministy and death on the cross, you must have an understanding of the Old Testament. The OT and the NT are not two different stories....they go hand-in-hand to complete God's word.God created a perfect world, without sin. When man took it upon himself, through the gift of free-will, to make his own decisions and live life according to his own will, sin entered the picture. God loves us and forgives our sins, but that doesn't mean He disregards the sin. He hates sin and, being just, there has to be consequences and punishment. The consequence of our sins is separation from God and eventual death. Man can do nothing to make himself right with God...we cannot approach God on the basis of our own good works. That being said, the only one who could restore man to his rightful glory (and we are glorious....made in God's image) was God himself. Do you truly understand the person of Christ? He was true God and true man. God came to earth to give us victory over death and restore His perfect relationship with all of us who believe in Jesus Christ. One man and true God died for the sins of many. Reread the OT...the Messiah was prophesized and Christ's life repeats the history of Israel (He was even referred to as the "New Israel"). That's where you get what you called the "substitutionary" death of Christ.
Hi Joyfulsue,Thanks for that great answer, but who was demanding a ransom...It is not a trick question....I feel it goes to the core of our understanding of salvation.And Separation from God causes sin. When Adam and Eve choose to go-it-alone sin entered..... Sin is separation from God.....Separation from God is the root cause of bad behaviours. We label bad behaviours as sin and concentrate on them, like having the flu and thinking to cure it by stopping up the sneezing. If we were to concentrate our efforts on sticking close to God then the symptoms will gradually fade away. This is the work of the Christian ....sticking close to God. I know, words are inadequate to describe the process of salvation, there is always an difficulty in trying to describe it. That is the quest of the Christian, to know Him that we might be saved, and to know Him is to want to be in His presence, One day soon we will see Him face to face and know Him as He really is.What a great thing it is to be able to share in this way...on this forum to be able to share with fellow travellers from around the world.....
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