IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Doug]

Now you’re inventing two churches to protect your theology? That’s not rightly dividing the word — that’s butchering the Gospel of Christ.

[Act 22:4 KJV] 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
[Act 26:11 KJV] 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.
[1Co 15:9 KJV] 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Paul persecuted the church before he was converted.........this church believed Jesus and the twelve.......this church co existed with the body of Christ and Paul had helpers from it

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

[Act 22:4 KJV] 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
[Act 26:11 KJV] 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.
[1Co 15:9 KJV] 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Paul persecuted the church before he was converted.........this church believed Jesus and the twelve.......this church co existed with the body of Christ and Paul had helpers from it

So now you're claiming Paul persecuted a different church — a pre-Pauline “Jewish-only church” that somehow wasn’t the Body of Christ?

That’s not exegesis. That’s Scofield fanfiction.

Paul says clearly:

“Christ is the head of the body, the Church.” (Colossians 1:18)

And again: “There is one body… one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Ephesians 4:4–5)

You’re trying to split what Scripture unites. The Church Paul persecuted was the same Church he later joined. The same faith. The same Gospel. The same Lord. That’s why he says:

“I persecuted the Church of God.” (1 Corinthians 15:9)

Not “a Jewish branch.” Not “another group.” Just the Church.

Your argument falls apart the moment you stop letting Scofield whisper in your ear. There weren’t two Churches — there was one.
From Pentecost onward, all who believed in Christ were added to His Body — Jew or Gentile, under Peter or Paul, all baptized into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

The only person teaching two bodies is Scofield.
The only book that pushes that lie is his — not God’s.

You want Scripture? Here’s all you need:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)

That doesn’t leave room for your “coexisting church.”
It leaves room for only one — the Israel of God.

 

[Doug]

So now you're claiming Paul persecuted a different church — a pre-Pauline “Jewish-only church” that somehow wasn’t the Body of Christ?

Where besides Paul do you find the body of Christ and a new creature and a church that says we are not under the Law.......did Jesus preach the law? yes he did.........the body of Christ was formed by Christ with the conversion of Paul.....the new testament church was formed by Jesus and this is the church Paul persecuted.
The new testament church reconciles the earth
The body of Christ reconciles heaven

 

[Doug]

“There is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)

Then why did Jews separate themselves from Gentiles...........[Act 10:28 KJV] 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Where besides Paul do you find the body of Christ and a new creature and a church that says we are not under the Law.......did Jesus preach the law? yes he did.........the body of Christ was formed by Christ with the conversion of Paul.....the new testament church was formed by Jesus and this is the church Paul persecuted.
The new testament church reconciles the earth
The body of Christ reconciles heaven

You’ve now created not just two Israels, but two churches, two reconciliations, and apparently two Gospels — one for earth and one for heaven?

That’s not theology. That’s theological schizophrenia —
the kind that splits God’s people, God’s plan, and God’s Gospel into disconnected fragments.

"There is ONE body and ONE Spirit, just as you were called to ONE hope… ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father of all." — Ephesians 4:4–6

Jesus didn’t build a temporary “law-based church” waiting for Paul to show up.
He said: “On this rock I will build My Church” (Matthew 16:18) — and that Church wasn’t “postponed,” it was born at Pentecost, filled with the Spirit, and persecuted by Saul — later known as Paul.

Paul didn’t invent the Body of Christ — he was grafted into it.
That’s why he says:

“I persecuted the Church of God.” — 1 Cor 15:9
Not a synagogue. Not an Old Covenant club. The Church of God.

You said “Jesus preached the law.” Of course He did — He fulfilled it. And what happened when He fulfilled it?

“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” — Romans 10:4
“The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ… but now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”— Galatians 3:24–25

Your “two-church, two-realm, law-vs-grace” system isn’t from Jesus, Paul, or the Apostles.
It’s from Scofield, Darby, Chafer, and the Oxford Press —
the demonic architects of a doctrinal Frankenstein, stitched together with half-truths, footnotes, and Zionist propaganda.

This isn’t revelation — it’s reinvented Judaism wrapped in Christian vocabulary.
It didn’t come from the Holy Spirit.
It came from seducing spirits and men who sold out the Church to prop up a Christ-rejecting state with a counterfeit covenant.

What you’re defending isn’t a mystery revealed.
It’s a deception unleashed — and it’s still dragging souls into confusion to this day.

There’s not a church that reconciles earth and another that reconciles heaven. That’s Gnostic garbage wrapped in dispensational packaging.

“Through Him [Christ] to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, making peace through the blood of His cross.” — Colossians 1:20

That’s the one Body of Christ, reconciling everything — not two churches, not two salvations, not two destinies.

What you're teaching isn’t just confusion.
It’s a direct insult to the sufficiency of Christ’s cross.
And that is heresy.

 

[Doug]

Jesus didn’t build a temporary “law-based church” waiting for Paul to show up.

In the millenial kingdom they will once again preach the law and offer sacrifices..........the Gentile nations in the kingdom will keep the feast of tabernacles

 

[Doug]

Paul didn’t invent the Body of Christ — he was grafted into it.

Not so ........if you are referring to Romans 9-11 to say that Paul was grafted in that is not correct.......Gentiles from Acts 10 were grafted in

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

In the millenial kingdom they will once again preach the law and offer sacrifices..........the Gentile nations in the kingdom will keep the feast of tabernacles

So let me get this straight:
According to you, after Jesus offers the perfect, once-for-all sacrifice, He returns to Earth to… preach the Law again?
Set up animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple?
Celebrate feast days that were shadows of His completed work?

That’s not the Millennial Kingdom — that’s a theological time machine in reverse.

“For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.”
— Hebrews 10:4

“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
— Hebrews 10:10

The feasts, the temple, the sacrifices — all of it pointed to Christ.
He fulfilled them. He replaced them. He IS the final Passover, the true Temple, the once-and-for-all Atonement.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law… I came to fulfill it.”
— Matthew 5:17

To say He returns to undo that fulfillment is heresy.
It makes the Cross temporary.
It turns the Lamb of God into an interim solution.
And it turns the “kingdom” into an old covenant revival with a throne on top.

You say the nations will keep the Feast of Tabernacles? Fine.
But Zechariah 14 is apocalyptic imagery — not a blueprint for Mosaic revival. The feast represents God dwelling with man, which is what Revelation 21 fulfills:
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men… and He will dwell with them.”
— Revelation 21:3

Jesus is not coming back to re-establish Judaism.
He’s coming back as King of Kings, High Priest forever, and Judge of all nations — not a Levitical tour guide.

Your theology doesn’t exalt Christ.
It rewinds His victory, reboots the Law, and turns the Gospel into a Zionist rerun.

That’s not the Kingdom.
That’s a doctrinal betrayal.

 

[Doug]

“Through Him [Christ] to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, making peace through the blood of His cross.” — Colossians 1:20

[Eph 1:10 KJV] 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
To gather together there must be two things.......the body in heaven and the Israel of God on earth

 

[Doug]

So let me get this straight:
According to you, after Jesus offers the perfect, once-for-all sacrifice, He returns to Earth to… preach the Law again?
Set up animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple?
Celebrate feast days that were shadows of His completed work?

I dont say it scripture does

 

[Doug]

To say He returns to undo that fulfillment is heresy.
It makes the Cross temporary.
It turns the Lamb of God into an interim solution.
And it turns the “kingdom” into an old covenant revival with a throne on top.

In the kingdom there will be sinners in need of reconcilliation........[Eze 45:15 KJV] 15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

[Eph 1:10 KJV] 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
To gather together there must be two things.......the body in heaven and the Israel of God on earth

So your argument is that “gathering together in one” somehow proves there are two peoples of God?

That’s backwards logic. The whole point of Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20 is that God is uniting everything — heaven and earth — under Christ.

Not preserving division.
Not organizing two spiritual fiefdoms.
But undoing the separation that sin created.

You’re using the word “dispensation” like it’s a theological trump card — but Paul is literally saying the opposite of what you’re claiming.
Let’s read it without Scofield glasses:

“That He might gather together in one all things in Christ.”
Not two things staying separate — but two realms being made one under the King.

Same in Colossians 1:20:
“To reconcile all things to Himself… whether things on earth or things in heaven.”
That’s not describing two peoples — it’s describing total reconciliation under a single covenant, sealed by the blood of His cross.

And just to crush this further:
“He has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us.” — Ephesians 2:14
“To make in Himself one new man from the two.” — Ephesians 2:15

One new man. One body. One covenant. One people.

There is no “body in heaven” and “Israel on earth” as two separate reconciliations. That’s not biblical. That’s Scofield’s schizophrenic theology projecting human categories onto divine unity.

God isn’t patching together two programs.
He’s building one Kingdom — in Christ alone.

 

[Doug]

But Zechariah 14 is apocalyptic imagery

I take it literally

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I dont say it scripture does

You say “I don’t say it scripture does.”
No — Scofield says it, and you’re just repeating it.

Let’s be clear: Scripture never says Jesus returns to re-establish the Law, reinstate animal sacrifices, or preach a Mosaic system from a physical throne.

What it does say is this:

“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.”
— Hebrews 10:10

“There remains no more sacrifice for sin.”
— Hebrews 10:26

You can’t have Christ reigning as the risen Lamb — and at the same time, run a Levitical slaughterhouse in Jerusalem.
You can’t have the veil torn (Matthew 27:51) — and then stitch it back together because your end-times chart demands it.

Yes, Old Testament prophecies use language about sacrifices and feasts — because they were written before the mystery of Christ was fully revealed. But even the prophets saw shadows. The New Covenant reveals the substance:

“These are a shadow of things to come; the substance belongs to Christ.”
— Colossians 2:17

If your interpretation of prophecy leads you to believe that Jesus undoes His own sacrifice, then your interpretation is broken — not the text.

Let me be blunt:
If you think Jesus needs to re-preach the Law, you’re calling the Cross incomplete.
If you think He returns to rebuild Moses, you’re saying grace failed.
And if you think He’ll reintroduce animal blood under a “Kingdom Age,” you’ve just gutted the Gospel from the inside out.

That’s not “what Scripture says.”
That’s what Scofield told you it means.

 

[Doug]

No — Scofield says it, and you’re just repeating it.

just so you know I dont read Scofield

 

[Doug]

Let’s be clear: Scripture never says Jesus returns to re-establish the Law, reinstate animal sacrifices, or preach a Mosaic system from a physical throne.

Isaiah and Ezekiel does

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

just so you know I dont read Scofield

You may not read Scofield — but you’re still preaching his system and heresy.
Two peoples of God. Two gospels. Law returning in the millennium. Animal sacrifices after the Cross.
That’s pure dispensational theology, whether you learned it from Scofield’s Bible, a pulpit trained by Dallas Theological Seminary, or a YouTube prophecy chart.

Just like someone quoting Marx without reading The Communist Manifesto —
you’re still repeating the script.

The early Church never taught this.
Paul never taught this.
Jesus never taught this.

So if it didn’t come from Scripture, and you didn’t get it from Scofield…
where exactly did it come from?

Because it sure didn’t come from the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Isaiah and Ezekiel does

So now you’re appealing to Isaiah and Ezekiel —
books written before the revelation of the New Covenant in Christ —
to override what Jesus, Paul, and Hebrews explicitly say???

That’s not exegesis. That’s time-traveling theological regression.

Yes — Isaiah and Ezekiel use temple, priesthood, and sacrifice imagery.
Because they were prophesying in Old Covenant language — pointing forward to a future they couldn’t fully see.

That’s why Hebrews says:
“In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets… but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son.”
— Hebrews 1:1–2

And what did the Son reveal?

“Sacrifices and offerings You did not desire… behold, I have come to do Your will.”
— Hebrews 10:5–7

“By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
— Hebrews 10:10

ONCE. FOR. ALL.

You don’t interpret Jesus through Ezekiel.
You interpret Ezekiel through Jesus.

The temple vision in Ezekiel isn’t about rebuilding animal altars —
it’s a prophetic shadow of God dwelling with His people, fulfilled in:

“You are the temple of the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 6:19)
“Destroy this temple… and I will raise it up” — He spoke of His body (John 2:19–21)
“Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men” (Rev. 21:3)

If you think Christ returns to revive the Law, reinstate sacrifices, and sit on a Levitical throne, then you’re not preaching fulfillment —
you’re preaching Gospel reversal.

And make no mistake:
That is not what Scripture teaches.
That is Scofieldian heresy in an Old Testament mask.

 

[Doug]

You may not read Scofield — but you’re still preaching his system and heresy.
Two peoples of God. Two gospels. Law returning in the millennium. Animal sacrifices after the Cross.
That’s pure dispensational theology, whether you learned it from Scofield’s Bible, a pulpit trained by Dallas Theological Seminary, or a YouTube prophecy chart.

Just like someone quoting Marx without reading The Communist Manifesto —
you’re still repeating the script.

The early Church never taught this.
Paul never taught this.
Jesus never taught this.

So if it didn’t come from Scripture, and you didn’t get it from Scofield…
where exactly did it come from?

Because it sure didn’t come from the Holy Spirit.

I read from you how we are the Israel of God so where did you get that?

 

[Doug]

The temple vision in Ezekiel isn’t about rebuilding animal altars —
it’s a prophetic shadow of God dwelling with His people, fulfilled in:

How is it that Ezekiel gives measurements for a symbolic temple?