IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

Reader,.

The reason that the "catching away" happens where the ""Bride" meets the "Lord in the Air", in the "twinkling of an eye", ...and shall "all be changed"......happens before the Trib, .......is becaust the Rapture of the Body of Christ is specific to the end of the "Time of the Gentiles" that ENDS before the Trib starts.

Yes the pretrib rapture is CONFIRMED in God's word.
Only pretrib rapture fits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The wrath is towards the end of the Great Tribulation that lasts approximately 3.5 years. (1278 days, 8 hours, 42 minutes would be close to exact - but the phrase "time, times and half a time" is not intended to mean precisely). We have several other scriptures mentioning the approximate time period of 42 months, 1260 days, 1290 days and 1335 days.
You identified when the the wrath comes in Rev. 11:15-19. It happens at the 7th Trumpet ( also referred to as the last trumpet). So the Mid-Trib/ Pre-Wrath view is correct.

"After the tribulation of those days", does not support Post-Trib and certainly not Pre-Trib views. It means after the days previously mentioned ( which are many, 1260). But notice it is not over yet.
At the 7th Trumpet, many events happen:
1. The kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of the Lord. He begins His reign as He takes control from Satan as defeats Him in battle.
2. Worship and Thanksgiving in heaven.
WRATH COMES (in the 7 Bowls released at that time)
3. Judgement of the dead
4. Rewards for servants are given ( a clear indication that we have just been raptured)
5. Dead in Christ are judged.
6. Temple in Heaven is opened
7. More devastation comes from the wrath that just begins.
So Jesus returns towards the end of the GT, but not after and not before. There are events between 1260 days and 1290 days and beyond up to 1335 days, after which the Millennial Kingdom begins.
Blessed are those who patiently make it through the 1,335 days. DAN. 12:12

Nope nope nope.
"One taken one left" is pretrib
Acts 1 " like manner" is pretrib
5 wise virgins are taken pretrib.
Not only that, but in 1st thes it says "the Ac is revealed at the rapture."
He comes on a white horse PRETRIB.
We do see a mid trib gathering in Rev 14:14
However, that gathering is MAIN HARVEST JEWS , as the firstfruit ethnic Jews are already harvested in Rev 14:1-4.

Your model leaves out a ton of dynamics.

 

[Doug]

The “day of Christ” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is the same climactic return Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 — the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, and our gathering to Him. But in 2 Thess. 2:3, Paul clearly says that day won’t come until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin — both part of the tribulation timeline.

So how can the rapture — our gathering to Christ — happen before the very events Paul says must happen first?
That’s not a mystery being revealed — that’s a contradiction to what Paul plainly taught.

[2Th 2:1 KJV] 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
It depends how you read this verse. It can be read 3 ways.
If you read it as saying:
we beseech you by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to gather us
or we beseech you by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to destroy the man of sin and our gathering which is connected and occurs before his coming ( This is how I see it)
or we beseech you by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to destroy the man of sin and also by our gathering together at that time he comes

Some were saying the day of Christ was at hand. I think the day of Christ is NOT the rapture but rather is his coming to destroy the man of sin,
The day of Christ will not happen until the body of Christ is taken up 2 Th 2:7 then the man of sin will be revealed.

 

[Doug]

And yes, the early Church didn’t have the full canon — but they did have Paul’s letters.

Not to sure about that ........Paul was persecuting the early church so the early church existed before Paul was even converted and wrote anything

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

All rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, and normal everyday life.

Your model is exactly opposite that.
Not only that but if God is precise, your rapture model is exactly 3.5 yrs after the man of sin is revealed.
So your model knows what Jesus does not know....the day of the rapture!

The crucial event which is key to solving the time of the Rapture is the "last trumpet". Since there are a serie of trumpet sounds in Revelation, one must reason that the last trumpet is the 7th. We have to rule out any series of trumpet sounds as on the Feast of Trumpets. Why? Because this last trumpet is not blown by a human. It is blown by an angel. As we examjnebthe events surrounding the 7 th trumpet , we see identifying indicators ( as I listed above). If the last trumpet sound was not part of that series and came before, then it would NOT be the last. If it came after, then it would be the 8th.
At the time Jesus said, "only the Father knows the time", He had not yet ascended to heaven nor handed the scroll ( which btw, when He was given it _ at that time _ He opened it). He didn't have to wait 2000 years. It was a playbook written with orders and details, just not enacted. How else would we know what was inside or John for that matter? John tells us what the Seals, trumpets and bowls represent - on his future. It is confusing, but remember, time is a physical dimension; God is not confined to our time dimensions and operates outside of time.
His glory was returned to Him and all power and authority. He knows all.

 

[Doug]

You don’t build doctrine by what the Bible doesn’t say.
You build it on what it does say — and it says the elect are gathered after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29–31), the Antichrist is revealed before the Day of Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:3), and the resurrection happens at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

Right we build doctrine on scripture but not everything is laid out ....we have to compare other scripture

Matthew 24 does not define who the elect are
[Isa 45:4 KJV] 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Israel is God's elect as well as us so which is it in Matthew?

 

[Doug]

You're splitting what Paul clearly connects.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 says, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him" — Paul is addressing both the return of Christ and the rapture in the same breath.

The verse doesnt say by the coming of our Lord WHICH IS our gathering together

 

[Doug]

The early Church existed from the moment the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost (Acts 2).

Pentecost did not form any church
[Mat 18:17 KJV] 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
The church existed before Pentecost and this was the church added to [Act 2:41 KJV] 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

 

[Doug]

You can’t find anyone teaching a pre-trib rapture before the 1800s.

Any teaching has to evaluated by the Bible.........you cant say the teachers of the 1800's are wrong based on the teaching of others

 

[Doug]

You're splitting what Paul clearly connects.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 says, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him" — Paul is addressing both the return of Christ and the rapture in the same breath.

Then in verse 3, he says “that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.”

What day?
The one he just referenced in verse 1 — the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him.

If you separate the rapture from that day, you’re inserting a theological gap that Paul never mentions. You’re literally ignoring the structure of the sentence.

Can may be used to express 2 different concepts.......[Gen 1:1 KJV] 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Nope nope nope.
"One taken one left" is pretrib
Acts 1 " like manner" is pretrib
5 wise virgins are taken pretrib.
Not only that, but in 1st thes it says "the Ac is revealed at the rapture."
He comes on a white horse PRETRIB.
We do see a mid trib gathering in Rev 14:14
However, that gathering is MAIN HARVEST JEWS , as the firstfruit ethnic Jews are already harvested in Rev 14:1-4.

Your model leaves out a ton of dynamics.

One taken, one left happens at His return. He returns after the AC reigns s for 3.5 years. Because when Jesus comes He does not delay His judgment. At the 7th Trumpet, He immediately goes to war with AC - it does not take years. So His wrath obviously disrupts and ends the AC reign. His coming in "like manner" answers th question, how He will return, not when. Parable of Virgins is linked to the announcement of the Wedding. Tue Father says, go get your Bride, Trumpets are blown ...
When AC is revealed, GT begins ... and that includes persecution of the saints - he goes after not only tue Jews, but Christians as well - we are still here.
Again, the 7th Trumpet is the last.
At the 7th Trumpet, many events happen:
1. The kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of the Lord. He begins His reign as He takes control from Satan as defeats Him in battle.
2. Worship and Thanksgiving in heaven.
3. WRATH COMES (in the 7 Bowls released at that time)
4. Judgement of the dead
5. Rewards for servants are given ( a clear indication that we have just been raptured)
6. Dead in Christ are judged.
7. Temple in Heaven is opened

 

[rebuilder 454]

The crucial event which is key to solving the time of the Rapture is the "last trumpet". Since there are a serie of trumpet sounds in Revelation, one must reason that the last trumpet is the 7th. We have to rule out any series of trumpet sounds as on the Feast of Trumpets. Why? Because this last trumpet is not blown by a human. It is blown by an angel. As we examjnebthe events surrounding the 7 th trumpet , we see identifying indicators ( as I listed above). If the last trumpet sound was not part of that series and came before, then it would NOT be the last. If it came after, then it would be the 8th.
At the time Jesus said, "only the Father knows the time", He had not yet ascended to heaven nor handed the scroll ( which btw, when He was given it _ at that time _ He opened it). He didn't have to wait 2000 years. It was a playbook written with orders and details, just not enacted. How else would we know what was inside or John for that matter? John tells us what the Seals, trumpets and bowls represent - on his future. It is confusing, but remember, time is a physical dimension; God is not confined to our time dimensions and operates outside of time.
His glory was returned to Him and all power and authority. He knows all.

"Last trumpet" is not a smoking gun to void 5 or ten verses.
That methodology guarantees error.
The verses I bring are not in your doctrine.
Postrib do not research.
Every postribber I have debated leaves out the purpose of tge trib, the fact that the Jewish only gathering is mid trib and tied to romans ch 11.
They leave out the setting for the rapture and ignore Jesus clear teaching of the timing of the rapture.
They insist on "one coming" which is not supported.
They insist that Jesus " coming in power and great glory" is the rapture.
They can not discern "one taken/left behind"
And ascribe ludicrous meaning to it.
They cannot discern the virgin parable and change it.
They cannot discern the 2 escape verses. ( both by Jesus)

ALL THAT IS IGNORED TO FOCUS ON A FALSE "smoking gun of a trumpet", not knowing that the "last trump" is blown every year at the feast of Trumpets.

Jesus told his disciples "not a hair on your head will be harmed"
...but they all were murdered by the devil.

Ps 91 says we are 100% protected.
Yet during the trib millions or billions of believers are murdered by the AC.

I have unpacked those apparent contradictions.
Under postribber methodology we must flip a coin to see which one is correct.
Postrib doctrine is poorly thought out.

The AC murders all refusing the mark.
The bible says ALL.
The postrib workbook can not reconcile that or even begin to reconcile it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

One taken, one left happens at His return. He returns after the AC reigns s for 3.5 years. Because when Jesus comes He does not delay His judgment. At the 7th Trumpet, He immediately goes to war with AC - it does not take years. So His wrath obviously disrupts and ends the AC reign. His coming in "like manner" answers th question, how He will return, not when. Parable of Virgins is linked to the announcement of the Wedding. Tue Father says, go get your Bride, Trumpets are blown ...
When AC is revealed, GT begins ... and that includes persecution of the saints - he goes after not only tue Jews, but Christians as well - we are still here.
Again, the 7th Trumpet is the last.
At the 7th Trumpet, many events happen:
1. The kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of the Lord. He begins His reign as He takes control from Satan as defeats Him in battle.
2. Worship and Thanksgiving in heaven.
3. WRATH COMES (in the 7 Bowls released at that time)
4. Judgement of the dead
5. Rewards for servants are given ( a clear indication that we have just been raptured)
6. Dead in Christ are judged.
7. Temple in Heaven is opened

The Jews are ushered away to safety.
Daniel says THE AC kills ALL the saints.
Millions are before the throne in Rev.
It says they were murdered IN THE TRIB.
No such thing as a postrib rapture.
Never has fit and never will.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Jews are ushered away to safety.
Daniel says THE AC kills ALL the saints.
Millions are before the throne in Rev.
It says they were murdered IN THE TRIB.
No such thing as a postrib rapture.
Never has fit and never will.

The great multitude seen in heaven came OUT OF the Great Tribulation, meaning they were in it!
These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. REV. 7:14
But listen, keep your view, one of many.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

[1Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

[1Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV] 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These verses establish that we will be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. It is established that this gathering is a mystery, hid in God, until revealed to Paul. The gathering, being a mystery, can only be for the church, the body of Christ. This gathering is commonly referred to as the rapture, although that term is not found in scripture; nevertheless I will use it for familiarity sake.

The question before us is; is the rapture before the tribulation.

There is no definitive statement to this effect, however, there is scripture to consider that will support the belief that the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

[Romans 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Here Paul says the church, the body of Christ, will be saved from wrath.

[1Thessalonians 5:9 KJV] 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Here Paul confirms the body of Christ is not appointed to wrath.

[1Thessalonians 1:10 KJV] 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

We are delivered from the wrath to come.

[Luk 3:7 KJV] 7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John the Baptist spoke unto the people of Israel to flee the wrath to come. What is the wrath to come?

[Revelation 11:18 KJV] 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[Rev 14:10, 19 KJV] 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: ... 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[Rev 15:1, 7 KJV] 1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
[Rev 16:1 KJV] 1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[Rev 19:15 KJV] 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Clearly the great tribulation is the wrath to come. We will not go through the wrath poured out in the tribulation.

[2Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV] 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is speaking about the coming of Christ, which he calls the day of Christ in verse 2. In the day of Christ the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming in verse 8.

Paul also speaks of our gathering together, the rapture, in verse 1 and tells them not to be troubled because the rapture event is associated with his coming and is not at hand.

[2Thessalonians 2:3, 6-8 KJV] 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ... 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The man of sin must be revealed before the coming of Christ, the day of Christ. What withholds the revealing of the wicked man of sin is the body of Christ; when the body of Christ is raptured and taken out of the way, he will be revealed.

The last scripture to consider follows:

[2Timothy 2:17-18 KJV] 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The question is what resurrection is past.

The first to consider is the resurrection at the last day, at the end of the tribulation. Could this be the resurrection that they were saying happened already?

Look at scripture about this resurrection:

[Matthew 24:29-30 KJV] 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These celestial events occur at the coming of Christ.

[Matthew 25:31 KJV] 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Christ comes he will establish his kingdom (Matthew 25:34) on earth and sit on David's throne (Luke 1:32).

[Matthew 8:11 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

This verses establishes that there will be a resurrection of the just at his coming to establish the kingdom on earth.

It would be impossible to miss this resurrection; how could one not see all the celestial events and Christ coming to earth and the resurrection of the old testament saints.

The only resurrection that they were saying was past would be the rapture.

Yes,the rapture of the church has to occur before the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers left behind.
Though there are passages that tell us there will be opportunity for those to find Christ even then.

All in God's own time.

Don't be in fear. Be ready.

 

[Doug]

Yes,the rapture of the church has to occur before the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers left behind.
Though there are passages that tell us there will be opportunity for those to find Christ even then.

All in God's own time.

Don't be in fear. Be ready.

Yes the tribulation is to refine Israel

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

That notion that no early church father taught the pre. Tribulation rapture has been debunked years ago.


It was Jesus that taught the pre tribulation rapture.
so I guess you're trying to say that Jesus was wrong.

Ironic that man has taught you wrong and the pretrib rapture is Jesus' words in the bible.

Show me a postrib rapture verse.
Should be easy.

Again, no smoking gun on your points.
Zero.
1) do a little research, because your doctrine is MEN misleading you.
Your false point of no church father teaching a pretrib rapture has been debunked YEARS AGO.( Ask yourself why postribbers stopped saying it) men teachers will make a fool of yourself.
2) You pointed out that the AC is REVEALED ..THEN THE RAPTURE.
AHEM....THAT would be pretrib rapture.
He is REVEALED PRETRIB.

Your other postrib talking point is "after the trib, ANGELS GATHER ( not Jesus) , the elect FROM HEAVEN (NOT EARTH)"

You are making a case for a pretrib rapture!

Thank you!

There's so much dispensationalist misinformation and nonsense in this thread its staggering.. The blind leading the blind..

Actually, Jesus didn’t teach a pre-trib rapture — He refuted it directly.
Let’s start with what Jesus Himself said:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man… and he shall gather together his elect…”
— Matthew 24:29–31 (If we were already gone, there would be no elect left to gather.)

That is your rapture.
It’s not secret.
It’s not before the tribulation.
It’s after.

So no — I’m not saying Jesus was wrong.
I’m saying your Scofield goggles are blinding you to what Jesus actually said.

And Paul agrees 100%:
“The Lord himself shall descend… the dead in Christ shall rise… we which are alive shall be caught up… and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
— 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17
Not a separate event.
No gap.
One return. One gathering. One glorious resurrection.

And just to drive the stake into Darby’s zombie theology:

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed…”
— 2 Thessalonians 2:3

That day = Christ’s return and our gathering (v1).
Paul explicitly says it won’t happen until the Antichrist is revealed — aka, during the tribulation.

So when you ask for a “post-trib rapture verse,” congratulations:
You’ve just been hit with three.

No early Christian ever taught a “secret rapture.”
That lie was born in the 1830s from John Nelson Darby and then printed into Scofield’s heretical footnotes, where gullible moderns swallowed it without question.

The rapture and the Second Coming are one event.
Not two.
Not separated by 7 years.
Not a disappearing act.
But the climactic return of Christ in power and glory — after the tribulation — just like He said.

1) “Your doctrine is from men!”
Ironically, that's exactly what Darby’s pre-trib rapture is — a man-made doctrine from the 1830s, never taught by Jesus, Paul, or the early Church. No one in Church history believed in a secret rapture before the tribulation until John Nelson Darby showed up and invented it out of thin air. That’s a fact — and no amount of “it’s been debunked!” nonsense changes that.

If it was so 'debunked,' you’d have one quote from a Church Father before 1830 clearly describing a secret, pre-trib rapture.
You don’t.
Because it doesn’t exist.

What does exist is:
John Nelson Darby (1830s): Developed the modern pre-tribulation rapture teaching.
Scofield Reference Bible (1909): Mass-marketed it via footnotes — not Scripture.
Left Behind (1995+): Pop-culture fantasy sealed the deal for modern, ignorant, misled evangelicals.

2) “The Antichrist is revealed then the rapture”? That’s not pre-trib — that’s mid-trib at best.
You just admitted the Antichrist is revealed before the rapture — which completely dismantles the pre-trib claim
Pre-trib means the rapture happens before the tribulation begins — before the Antichrist is even on the scene.
But 2 Thessalonians 2:3 says the Day of Christ (aka the return + rapture) will NOT happen until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

That puts the rapture squarely inside the tribulation timeline — not before it.
You just accidentally proved my point — again.

3) “The angels gather the elect from heaven, not earth!”
No....

Matthew 24:31 —
“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The “four winds” (same Greek used in Daniel) is an idiom for all directions on Earth.
It's not saying the elect are floating in heaven.
It’s saying they’re scattered across the earth — and they’re being gathered at Christ’s return.

Also, are you forgetting that the dead in Christ rise first, and then we who are alive are caught up?
That’s both heaven and earth involved in one gathering — one climactic moment.

Bottom line:
You’re confusing Hollywood fantasy with Scripture.
There’s no secret escape hatch.
No vanishing act before tribulation.
No two-phase return.

Jesus comes back once — visibly, gloriously, after the tribulation — to raise the dead and gather His people.

What Darby and Scofield did was hijack Christianity and smuggle in an entirely new storyline — one where Jesus takes a backseat, and modern political Israel becomes the main character.

These poor souls think they're reading the Bible, but what they're really reading is Scofield's fan fiction, footnoted right into the margins like it's canon. They’ve been trained to see:

Ethnic Israel as the hero

The Church as a placeholder

The Antichrist as someone else’s problem

The rapture as an escape hatch

And Jesus’ own words as irrelevant to “this dispensation”

It’s not Christianity anymore — it’s Scofieldian Star Wars, where up is down and evil is good:

Its like -- “Yes, I follow the Gospel of Star Wars… Emperor Palpatine is our blessed hope, Yoda leads the evil Beast system, Darth Vader runs a charity for orphaned clones, and the Millennium Kingdom is being administered from a Rothschild-funded beachfront in Tel Aviv. Luke and Leia? Apostates who rejected the Empire’s prophetic destiny.” -- it couldn't be more backwards if you tried.

 

[marks]

So how can the rapture — our gathering to Christ — happen before the very events Paul says must happen first?
That’s not a mystery being revealed — that’s a contradiction to what Paul plainly taught.

That's not actually what the passage says. There is the gathering unto the Lord, and there is the day of Christ/day of the LORD (depending on your ms.). If you consider these to be the same thing, you are interpreting by your own ideas, but not what is solely in the text. The text does not say that.

If they were in fact the same thing, why would the people be troubled over some one saying "that day is now here"? Check the wording and grammar.

What Paul is saying here is, don't be troubled concerning our being gathered to Jesus because someone is telling you the day of the Lord is here. That day, the day of the Lord, won't come until these other things happen first.

Ergo:

These things haven't happened, so you can know the Day of the Lord is not here. So that being the case, don't be troubled concerning your being gathered to Jesus.

Ask yourself, if the rapture of the church and the Day of the Lord are the same thing, why would they be troubled at someone saying "the day of the Lord is here". The wording "is at hand" is from the Greek enestiken, which is the Perfect Tense for "has in stood", which is to say, "It's arrived, and is here." If they thought that these were the same thing, this would be understood as someone telling them, "It's Rapture Day!"

Don't be worried about being raptured to Jesus, just because someone is telling you "it's the Day of the LORD". Because it's not. The prerequisites haven't happened yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Much love!

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Yes the tribulation is to refine Israel

Matthew 24:21-22

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

That's not actually what the passage says. There is the gathering unto the Lord, and there is the day of Christ/day of the LORD (depending on your ms.). If you consider these to be the same thing, you are interpreting by your own ideas, but not what is solely in the text. The text does not say that.

If they were in fact the same thing, why would the people be troubled over some one saying "that day is now here"? Check the wording and grammar.

What Paul is saying here is, don't be troubled concerning our being gathered to Jesus because someone is telling you the day of the Lord is here. That day, the day of the Lord, won't come until these other things happen first.

Ergo:

These things haven't happened, so you can know the Day of the Lord is not here. So that being the case, don't be troubled concerning your being gathered to Jesus.

Ask yourself, if the rapture of the church and the Day of the Lord are the same thing, why would they be troubled at someone saying "the day of the Lord is here". The wording "is at hand" is from the Greek enestiken, which is the Perfect Tense for "has in stood", which is to say, "It's arrived, and is here." If they thought that these were the same thing, this would be understood as someone telling them, "It's Rapture Day!"

Don't be worried about being raptured to Jesus, just because someone is telling you "it's the Day of the LORD". Because it's not. The prerequisites haven't happened yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Much love!

2 Thessalonians 2:1–3 (KJV)
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled… as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed…”

Paul refers to one unified event: the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him — not two phases.
He makes it crystal clear: “That day shall not come” until two things happen — the apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist.

That alone should end the pre-trib, Dispensationalist delusion. But for the sake of clarity — let’s keep going.

Matthew 24:29–31 (KJV)
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… they shall see the Son of man coming… and he shall send his angels… and they shall gather together his elect…”

Jesus places the gathering (rapture) after the tribulation — not before.
It’s visible, global, and marked by cosmic signs — not secret or symbolic.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 (KJV)
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven… the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them… and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This is the same event Paul referenced in 2 Thess. 2:1 — the gathering.
He never separates it from the Second Coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:2–4 (KJV)
“The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night… but ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you…”

Same day. Not two returns. Not two tracks for Israel and the Church.
Believers are watching and enduring — not removed.

Revelation 20:4–5 (KJV)
“And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection.”

These saints died during the tribulation — they refused the mark of the Beast.
Yet they are raised in what John calls the first resurrection.
If the Church was raptured years earlier, this would be a second resurrection — but Scripture says this is the first.

And who is this Beast/Antichrist?
“And power was given unto him to continue forty and two months… and it was given unto him to make war with the saints…”
— Revelation 13:5–7

He rules during the tribulation, makes war on the saints, and is later destroyed by the return of Christ:

“…whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.”
— 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Conclusion from the text alone:

The “gathering” and “Day of Christ” are the same (2 Thess. 2:1–3)
It cannot happen until the Antichrist is revealed

Jesus places the gathering after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29–31)

The first resurrection includes tribulation martyrs (Rev. 20:4–5)

The Antichrist rules during the tribulation (Rev. 13:5)

Jesus destroys him at His visible return (2 Thess. 2:8)

There is no scriptural basis for a secret pre-trib rapture.
You cannot insert it without contradicting every major prophetic passage on Christ’s return — from Jesus to Paul to John.

And that’s exactly why no early Church Father ever taught it.
The early Church endured persecution, preached endurance, and awaited one visible return of Christ — after the tribulation, before the wrath.

The pre-trib rapture is a 19th-century invention, born from the twisted theology of John Nelson Darby and mass-marketed by Scofield’s heretical footnotes — not Scripture.

It didn’t rear its Satanic head until 1800 years after the Apostles — and it has been warping the Church and misleading people ever since.