IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Fred J]

These comings after the first are all combined in the second coming.

Thank you and that's your version of only 2 comings, i get it.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

Good Morning Fred J,

In your previous post to me you did not specify these supposed 4 Comings of the LORD.

Can you find JESUS declaring this in His Gospel?

Yes, you're right my bad, but it doesn't conflict with the 3 comings given you.

i just missed the part that on the final judgement He shall come with His angels from Heaven.

Sending them to the 4 corners of the earth to gather people of all nation, kindred and tongue to be judge.

This is apparently the final judgement where all the people are finally separated, ones to Heaven and ones to hell.

i did give you the quote; Matthew 25:31&32

Let's skip the first coming then.

Second coming, He's not coming on earth, but only in the clouds and rapture takes place.

Third comings, after pouring GOD's wrath which is plagues and never seen calamites on the ungodly in earth. He with the armies of Heaven will come to earth to wage war with anti-Christ and the kings and their armies

Anti-Christ who's possess by satan, and the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire... (Revelation 19:20).

satan will be bound and be cast into the bottomless pit a thousand years, yet after the thousand years fulfilled, he'll be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:3)

Now, if the final judgement is after anti-Christ and all the darkness charade in the world and satan is bound, why let him out after a thousand years?

he's out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth 'a little season', ............ (Revelation 20:8).

Only after this little season, satan will be finally cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet already are, forever and ever.

Forth coming, He shall come with His angels sending them to the four corners of the earth to get people of all nation kindred and tongue for the 'final judgement', (Revelation 20:11 and onward)

Finally, death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[keithr]

Two reasons why the rapture has to be pre-tribulation:

1. The rapture is imminent, i.e. Jesus tells us that we don't know when he will come, it could happen at any moment - there are no events or signs that must precede the rapture. Therefore the foretold events of the Great Tribulation cannot start before the rapture has taken place because that would be a sign that the rapture was going to occur in the very near future.

Matthew 25:13 (WEB):

(13) Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.​

Matthew 24:44 (WEB):

(44) Therefore also be ready, for in an hour that you don’t expect, the Son of Man will come.​

2. The "restrainer" has to be removed before the Great Tribulation can occur. See 2 Thessalonians 2 (below). Paul is correcting Christians who had thought that Jesus had already returned and was present, and that the events of the Great Tribulation were about to begin, so he tells them that before Jesus returns for the Church there will be a falling away from the truth (apostasy), and that before the Great Tribulation can begin the antichrist must be revealed. The apostasy occurred later (a long time ago now!), so the rapture can occur at any moment. The antichrist has not yet been revealed (that would be a sign or event that would make the rapture no longer imminent).

2 Thessalonians 2 (UASV+):

(1) Now we request you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him,​

(2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a word or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.​

(3) Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,​

(4) who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, showing himself as being God.​

(5) Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?​

(6) And now you know the thing restraining him, so that in his time he will be revealed.​

(7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.​

(8) Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth, and wipe out by the appearance of his coming,​

(9) namely, the one whose coming is in accordance with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,​

(10) and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.​

(11) For this reason God is sending upon them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie,​

(12) in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.​

(13) But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits for salvation, through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.​

(14) To this he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

(15) So then, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which you were taught, whether by spoken word or by letter from us.​

(16) Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,​

(17) comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.​

The Great Tribulation starts when the antichrist makes a peace treaty with unbeliving Israel - the start of the last 7 years of the appointed 70 years for Israel (Daniel 9:24) - Daniel 9:27 (WEB):

(27) He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”​

So the antichrist must be revealed before the Great tribulation can start. Today, the unbelieving Israel have returned to their land, but the "restrainer" is still preventing the antichrist from appearing. The "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit permanently indwells Christians:

John 14:16 (WEB):

(16) I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever:​

Romans 8:9 (WEB):

(9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.​

Therefore, for the Holy Spirit to be taken out of the way, all Christians, and the restraining ministry of the Church, must be removed from the earth - the rapture. So the rapture must occur before the Great Tribulation.

 

[Taken]

Actually, no one is “left behind” in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18.

Broadly have some agreement with you, specifically have some disagreement with you.

1 Thes 4:13-17
Is About individuals having been “made Whole (body, soul, spirit) , being Claimed, Redeemed, Transported, From the Earth To the Clouds to meet Their Redeemer.

By “default”, those NOT Redeemed, Remain “left behind, ON Earth.

That passage isn’t about a secret pre-trib rapture —

Secret?
Secret is … is Unknown, unsure, unheard, invisible.
* Secret to the individual being Redeemed?
No. They know, Trust, Sure, Heard, See.
* Secret to the individual Left on Earth, unknown, unsure, unheard, invisible? Yes.

it’s about the resurrection of the dead in Christ

Yes.

and the Second Coming of Jesus.

No.
Rather About individuals “IN Christ, meeting their Redeemer, and Seeing Him, AS He IS.

It’s loud, visible, and final. The Lord descends with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God — not exactly a quiet escape plan.

Not Quiet to those Being Redeemed.
Unheard to those NOT Being Redeemed.

The dead rise first,

Yes.

then the living believers

No. Many “Believers” Are “NOT”, “IN Christ”.

IN Christ, Applies to “Specific (Made Whole) Individuals.

Rather “THEN” the bodily Alive;
THEY…(Made Whole / ( soul sav-ED, spirit quickened-ED, body Crucified Dead, Living IN Jesus’ Risen Body, with the Power of God (ie. christ, IN Them.)

are caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Yes. Meeting AND SEEING (for the First Time)…(AS He “IS” ( Spirit) Christ the Lord, Their Savior and Redeemer.

That’s not a disappearance — that’s a homecoming.

A “disappearance” from the EYES, Remaing (left behind) On Earth.
A “Homecoming” For the “Individual being Redeemed.

Paul isn’t even talking about unbelievers in this passage.

True. Such Passages ARE Specific TO individuals MADE Whole and Being Redeemed.

If you’re looking for “left behind” language, go to Matthew 24 — and guess what? It’s the wicked who are taken in judgment,

Actually…
It is a … AN Order and Way… Regarding;
The Righteous And The Un-Righteous…
* Recognition; Their “Dividing” Difference.
* Separating; The Divided, One from the other.
* Redeeming; TAKING, ( By the Lord) the individuals “WITH- IN” Christ the Lord.
Before, Tribulations From God ARE Sent Down To Earth From Heaven.
Before, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Wrath of the Devil, The Wrath of God…is Sent Down from Heaven, For All “Living men “ON Earth” to Experience Spiritual Anger (of the Lamb, the Devil, God).

No “Anger : Wrath send Down from Heaven, Has Been Prepared “For Those “IN Christ” to be subject to, or experience.”

* Redeeming… IS “Taking” Claiming that which is His [To ]B]Claim and Take.

* Christ the Lord Jesus… CLAIMS, REDEEMS, TAKES, that (he, him, she, her)… that IS His.
Expressly… they “IN Christ”
(before the Trib)

* God Shall … CLAIM, REDEEM, TAKE…that (he, him, she, her), that IS His. ( Before, During, After the Trib).
Expressly… they from the beginning to the ending… who bodily dies, Having bodily died, (In Any Ancient/ historical / modern/ era)…Heartfully Believing IN…
God Himself;
Gods Word;
Gods Prophetic Messiah,
Gods Revealed Son Jesus,
Gods Revealed Power to Raise the Dead unto Life.

Aside From “Those IN Christ, And Who Redeems Them AND WHEN AND WHY…Paul mentions ONE example in:
1 Thes 4:14
[14] For if we [Whomever that belief applies to, WHO IS NOT IN Christ)…believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
* Gods “bringing / taking is the First Resurrection”… “while Christs bringing / taking IS the Rapture.

* God shall Redeem, Claim, TAKE Them.

* Ultimately…
Those “individuals” Neither…
Claimed, Redeemed, TAKEN by Christ the Lord Or God…
Shall Be…Separated From the Redeemed… Have NO Access to “Their” Prepared Place of Peace, Comfort, Beauty, With their Redeemer”.
** AND Rather “SENT” to A Place “Prepared, For Them”… VOID of The Lord Gods, Peace, Comfort, Beauty.

just like in the days of Noah. The whole “left behind” narrative is a 20th-century invention — not biblical doctrine.

Disagree.
Modern language of “left behind” … is Spot on, Regarding, Those “Not IN Christ”… “Those Not Claimed, Redeemed, Taken… BY Christ”… Left… to remain on Earth…During the Trib…experiencing Any portion of:
The Wrath of the Lamb,
The Wrath of the Devil
The Wrath of God…
They “on Earth” Still having opportunity (while alive)… to Bodily Die “in Heartful Belief”… and partake in Gods First Resurrection.

God bless you,
Glory to God,

Taken