Is there relationship with the Godhead, if we don't come under God's authority?

[williemac]

williemac

williemac your dodging, the reply I gave you, you were clearly speaking of the luke warm church, the saved, quote below


As I pointed out above and you are now doing is avoiding the subject of the message. Which was the below. You completely ignored it and went to verse 20 and drew your own conclusion.


I didn't read any further than the first two sentences of your reply I quoted from your last post. Your opening statement makes it quite clear, your luke warm and intend to continue, rather than making a purchase, I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire,

1 Cor 3:12-15 don't be one that merely escapes the fire.


12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each
one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it
will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of
what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Please don't lecture me on the work Of the Lord


You can sit on the porch and watch but don't mussel the ox
1Cor 9:9-12

Hey, friend. I replied to brother Axehead's post, as his was the previous to mine. So if you don't mind, I would appreciate that you take that into consideration. As well, drawing conclusions about my own participation with Jesus is not something you can do with any kind of accuracy, not knowing me personally. This is a discussion concerning concepts in the word. Why don't we just leave it at that and not go about making personal digs about a brother's walk with Jesus.

 

[Rex]

So you have no comment on my post, seeing it was between your last two and AH included a reference to mine as well.
I was of the opinion you included my post in your reply as well, why should I have thought differently?

You just keep disputing "brother axehead" as you call him and I'll continue to post what I do.


Maybe you just need a little room to grow in grace as you say, I imagine you to be a young man

But along with His terms is the grace that allows for our weaknesses,
room to grow, room to fail, room to learn, room to improve, etc.

 

[williemac]

So you have no comment on my post, seeing it was between your last two and AH included a reference to mine as well.
I was of the opinion you included my post in your reply as well, why should I have thought differently?

You just keep disputing "brother axehead" as you call him and I'll continue to post what I do.


Maybe you just need a little room to grow in grace as you say, I imagine you to be a young man

I am 59 yrs old and have been a Christian for 33 yrs. I have been discussing and debating doctrine online for 15 yrs, and have led worship even longer, led bible study for 12 yrs, and have been an elder and a deacon. I do not comment on things that I have not studied and meditated on. My passion is new covenant principles and how they differ from old covenant. These in no way make me anything special or an expert. That is not the point. But this I can say; your ability to discern other people from cyberspace is limited just as mine is. I will kindly refrain from judging you based on assumption. I asked you to do the same. So far it seems you are unwilling.
So you asked why you should have thought differently than to imagine I included your post? Maybe because I addressed it to someone else. You don't think that some of the same ideas can surface that you are expressing?

 

[Rex]

Maybe because I addressed it to someone else.

willie I just looked again you didn't address it to ether of us.

But I did notice you made a comment on the same scripture in another post a few minutes ago.

If one reads through it, Jesus does not apply that term to what this
post is applying it to. Not at all. He speaks of a solution to their
lukewarmness. He counsels them to buy from Him gold that is refined in
the fire, that they may be rich, and garments that are white that they
may be clothed, and eye salve, that they may see. These things that are
missing are they which make them lukewarm.


Furthermore, Jesus then gives them the way to get all these things. He reveals that, in Rev.3:20...."
Behold, I stand at the door and knock". In the next verse He reveals
the result of them opening the door; He would come into them and sup
with them and they with He.

This, then is what makes one lukewarm in Jesus' eyes; They were not
cold, because they had His name. They were not hot, because they were
without His presence within them through the infilling of the Holy
Spirit. Thus they were missing all those things that the Holy Spirit
brings into one's life; the things mentioned by Jesus.

They were luke warm because the had no works, they were lazy, rich fat and lazy just like the church today, to busy living the good life to give their life to the Lord, playing golf and telling everyone faith is all you need, I believe and go about my own way. the rest I already commented on above,
I won't be sitting in on any of your bible studies.


The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because
you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and
do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold,
I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the
door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

 

[Axehead]

That is a long reply. I will not bother to make an equally long comment on each point. Only to say that more than some of the references refer to the command to come to Him for salvation in the first place, so are not directed at the believer.... and others are just flat out -out of context. As well, many of the examples given are not called commands and do not come across as such. For example, " Wait for My return" , or "as, seek, and knock". These are commands? Hey, if we only have two categories..suggestion or command, then we are limited big time to accurately consider His words. I am not impressed at the tactic of throwing so many passages in the mix that it gives the impression of proving something that many of them do not support.

I do agree that His terms are the priority. I would never argue that point. But along with His terms is the grace that allows for our weaknesses, room to grow, room to fail, room to learn, room to improve, etc. And last but not least is His promises that go along with His terms. Paul's letters, for example, did not usually, if ever, begin with the exhortations to live a godly life, nor were these the only parts to his letters. He had a history and a policy of first giving assurances to his readers, giving all the good news about who we are and what our destinty is, demonstrating the power of Jesus to be the author and finisher of our faith, and ikn one place revealing the fact that though a man's works are burned, he himself will still be saved.

The exhortations were balanced with the message of grace. So many times we see people coming into these threads with nothing but threats and warnings that apply if a person fails to measure up to their impression of a given standard.

So, while in principle we are certainly restricted to be in relationship on His terms, we must allow the balance to be in place concerning these terms. Under the law, commands were enforced and motivated through threats of punishment, death, or loss, and promises of reward for compliance. Under the terms of relationship that Jesus has established, this enforcement has been abolished, once the relationship is in place through the new birth and presence of Jesus within the believer. We are not under law, but under grace. The present terms include loss or gain of reward at His judgment seat, and the PROMISE of chastening, which we all will experience at various times and levels.

So while you may insist that we call nearly everything Jesus ever said, a command.... we ought not to be in fear of His rejection or His wrath.

That is a long reply. I will not bother to make an equally long comment on each point. Only to say that more than some of the references refer to the command to come to Him for salvation in the first place, so are not directed at the believer.... and others are just flat out -out of context. As well, many of the examples given are not called commands and do not come across as such. For example, " Wait for My return" , or "as, seek, and knock". These are commands? Hey, if we only have two categories..suggestion or command, then we are limited big time to accurately consider His words. I am not impressed at the tactic of throwing so many passages in the mix that it gives the impression of proving something that many of them do not support.

Hi willie,

I am sorry that you suspect an agenda and that you saw my post as a "tactic". My list of 50 is small in comparison to all that the Spirit of God communicates to us, I am sure you will agree.

I do agree that His terms are the priority. I would never argue that point. But along with His terms is the grace that allows for our weaknesses, room to grow, room to fail, room to learn, room to improve, etc. And last but not least is His promises that go along with His terms. Paul's letters, for example, did not usually, if ever, begin with the exhortations to live a godly life, nor were these the only parts to his letters. He had a history and a policy of first giving assurances to his readers, giving all the good news about who we are and what our destinty is, demonstrating the power of Jesus to be the author and finisher of our faith, and ikn one place revealing the fact that though a man's works are burned, he himself will still be saved.

Absolutely, I have no problem with what you just said. Sure we will all have some "works" burned up. As we are maturing in the Lord we are bound to do many things in the "religious flesh" as it were and if any of our works were not authored by the Holy Spirit, yes, they will burn up, yet we will be saved.

That is not not the same as saying that someone prays a prayer and then goes about living his life as usual without ever even tipping his hat to the Lord not to mention never coming under the Lord's authority. That man will be a man that the Lord will say, "I never knew you". We don't want to be like that, do we?

What I think you are saying is that someone is following the Lord hard and trying to learn His ways and he may miss the mark a lot and so there is forgiveness. And you are saying that whatever the Lord tells someone to do, that He accompanies it with grace, which He does. He exhorts, encourages and gives assurances. Yet, the Believer you are talking about is someone who is listening to the Lord and following Him.

The exhortations were balanced with the message of grace. So many times we see people coming into these threads with nothing but threats and warnings that apply if a person fails to measure up to their impression of a given standard.\

I agree. I believe you have had your share of threats and warnings and so you are very sensitive to that. And to be fair, the NT has it's share of threats and warnings because, obviously there are people that need to hear them. Hey, there have been times in my life I have needed to hear some of those passages in the NT. God is not mocked, is He?

So, while in principle we are certainly restricted to be in relationship on His terms, we must allow the balance to be in place concerning these terms. Under the law, commands were enforced and motivated through threats of punishment, death, or loss, and promises of reward for compliance. Under the terms of relationship that Jesus has established, this enforcement has been abolished, once the relationship is in place through the new birth and presence of Jesus within the believer. We are not under law, but under grace. The present terms include loss or gain of reward at His judgment seat, and the PROMISE of chastening, which we all will experience at various times and levels.

I will agree that the harshness of the law has been abolished. No longer do homosexuals or harlots get stoned, thank God!!

But, the nature and character of God has not changed towards willful sin, has it?

So while you may insist that we call nearly everything Jesus ever said, a command.... we ought not to be in fear of His rejection or His wrath.

I don't want to get off on a rabbit trail and I fear that I might have.

I want to concentrate on the OP and what a born-again, spirit-filled believer's life is like in relationship to the authority of His voice in their lives.

Maybe that is a better way to say it. Yes He is Authority, personified. There is no disputing that. But when we hear Him speak in our spirit, we know He is the highest authority in the universe speaking to us and what is our response supposed to be? What is the response of a true believer. Since you brought up Paul, I think he is a perfect example of someone (who was persecuting Jesus) who understood what "coming under the Lord's authority" was all about. Paul did not carry out his own program. He carried out the Lord's program. He knew Christ was in charge and each day, Paul reported for duty (as it were). Paul never took the attitude, "I see how it's done Lord, I will take it from here". No, like looking for manna in the wilderness daily, Paul looked for the Lord's word to him daily.

Well, that's one aspect. There are many men today who are carrying out their own program. Paul talked about people like this in the end of Acts and Timothy. There are also men who carry out the Lord's program, though they falter here and there. And then there are men that name the name of Christ and DON'T depart from sin, at all! The command from the Holy Spirit through Paul, is that everyone that "names the name of Christ should depart from sin". Young Christian or old, the command is to all. When people are young in the Lord they are very sensitive to sin and don't want anything to do with it. Maturity has more to do with walking in love in difficult circumstances, not becoming sinless.

You're 59 now, so I know you are not taken in by someone's confession (what he speaks from his lips). I used to be, maybe you could call it gullibility or lack of wisdom. I don't know, when I was first a Christian, I thought everyone that called themselves a Christian was a genuine Christian, but I found out that is not always true, is it?

Well, great chatting. That's all for now,
Axehead

 

[williemac]

In reply to #25. Thank you for your sharing. I see now that we are similar in our viewpoint. Yes, there are those who call themselves Christians but Jesus will say.."I never knew you". This is why I brought up the Rev.3 invitation to the Lukewarm church. I think that is a great example.
I guess my main idea was that in terms of cause and effect, coming under His authority is an effect. It is the result of a relationship and fellowship with Jesus. I say that because one could well be going through the motions of coming under His authority, appearing to belong to Jesus, but not really enganged in a relationship with Him. (not unlike the Pharisee in Luke 18:10-14, who was doing everything right but who's heart was self righteous in it) Right actions, wrong motive.

Coming under His authority will automatically happen with a person involved in fellowship with Jesus, but it will not create a fellowship, nor does it by itself, constitute a relationship with Jesus. That is where I was going with my concern. One can and will obey someone he is afraid of, or even hates, if it serves his own conceived interest. But he will more happily and readily respond to, love, and serve the One Who loves and serves him, is trustworthy that He has his best interest, and wants to know him and fellowship with him. The relationship is the starting point. It is the cause of all the fruit after the fact.

I am glad that you re worded your intention with the OP. I would rather talk about those things than get into a debate about the other. However, there is another who is insisting I carry on. I guess I will head to his posts and see just what he has a problem with in my viewpoint. Chow for now, Blessings, Howie.

willie I just looked again you didn't address it to ether of us.

But I did notice you made a comment on the same scripture in another post a few minutes ago.


They were luke warm because the had no works, they were lazy, rich fat and lazy just like the church today, to busy living the good life to give their life to the Lord, playing golf and telling everyone faith is all you need, I believe and go about my own way. the rest I already commented on above,
I won't be sitting in on any of your bible studies.


The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because
you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and
do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold,
I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the
door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Brother, if you read that post you say was not addressed to either, you will find that I started with..."that is a long post" So, unless you think I was referring to more than one post, why wouldn't you conclude that it was referring to the long post just above it? Know what I think? I think you may be having a problem showing the humility to admit a mistake. Maybe.

In reference to the Lukewarm church...if you have a gander, you will see that Jesus addressed every one of the seven churches in Asia with.." I know your works" . This was His standard introduction. However, He then speaks to them about being neither cold nor hot.

Then in vs. 17, He said..."because you say in your heart" . Herein lies their problem> Jesus is about to tell them what it is that makes them lukewarm. Contrary to your opinion, He did not tell them that they were lazy and fat. What gives you the permission to put words in our Lord's mouth? You might want to sit in a bible study and learn about the keys to bible interpretation.

One important key is to examine a context to see just what is being said and communicated. As I shared, the latter part of Jesus' exhortation with them was the invitation to a relationship through His indwelling presence. Therefore, they were lacking this important aspect.
So in knowing what they were missing from that part of the context, let's backtrack and have another look. They said in their hear that they were rich and had need of nothing. Obviously they needed something and were wrong. What was His advice? Open the door of your heart and let Me in. This is what they were missing. The context holds the truth.

So, when Jesus said " you do not know you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.." how does it pass by you that He was not referring to their physical life? I think if one was blind and naked physically, then he would know it, no?

He then did not tell them to get busy with better works. He told them to buy from Him gold refined in the fire, white garments , and eyesalve. Is this about the physical? Is this about their works? C'mon, brother, you must be able to see otherwise!.

This is obviously about the spirtual lack that they had. They were going through the motions of their conceived version of Christianity, ( I know your works) but did not have the one thing that is the whole point of Christianity. They were lacking the indwelling presence of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. This is what buys us a white garment, eysalve, and spiritual wealth.

I don't know who taught you otherwise, or if you came up with your own version of lukewarmness, but that passage is not about lazy, fat christians who like to play golf. Hey, there are plenty of those types in the world and in the church. Do you think I don't realize that? Give me a little credit. But as we see in the judgment seat of Christ, they will not be spewed out of His mouth if their works are burned and they suffer loss.(1Cor.3:15)

I suspect that the possiblity that this kind of person has absolutely no fruit whatsoever in his life, is rare. In fact it is highly unlikely. Should we exhort our fellow believers to quality service to the Lord? You better believe it. I would never stand in the way of that. However, threatening them with eternal rejection will not give any kind of godly motive to anyone, for quality service.

The biblical way, the spiritual way, to motivate service is to inspire one into a quality relationship with Jesus The rest will flow out of that as Jesus works on the heart of the individual. It is not up to you and I to change anyone's heart. This is Jesus' role. The role of the Christian leader is among other things, to point the way into the Holy of Holies, and definately not to hinder it. We are assured that this is available to all, the veil having been torn.

I hope this clears up what my position is and where I am coming from. If you don't agree, then fine. I am not sure I am willing to articulate it any better or more clearly at this time. I guess I will wait with baited breath.

But before you reply, a reminder of the fruit of the Spirit. It includes love, kindness, gentleness. Character assasination and slander can hardly fit into those garments.
Blessings, Howie

 

[Rex]

Then in vs. 17, He said..."because you say in your heart" . Herein
lies their problem> Jesus is about to tell them what it is that makes
them lukewarm. Contrary to your opinion, He did not tell them that they were lazy and fat. What
gives you the permission to put words in our Lord's mouth? You might
want to sit in a bible study and learn about the keys to bible
interpretation.

I don't know what version your using but as a baseline the KJV says, nothing about the heart in verse 17 I suggest you do a little comparing and reference Strongs, If you still can't see. Maybe you could share the magic bible version your using because I just searched 8 and have yet to find heart.


KJV
17 Because
thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and
poor, and blind, and naked:

NIV
17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

I read your other post, I'm sure were very different, I don't spend much time with people that separate the salvation of the NT into what was addressed to the Jews and what was addresses to the Gentiles. With that in mind I understand your aversion to works by those that are born of Spirit.

Have a nice day.


Bible study leader

 

[williemac]

I don't know what version your using but as a baseline the KJV says, nothing about the heart in verse 17 I suggest you do a little comparing and reference Strongs, If you still can't see. Maybe you could share the magic bible version your using because I just searched 8 and have yet to find heart.


KJV
17 Because
thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and
poor, and blind, and naked:

NIV
17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

I read your other post, I'm sure were very different, I don't spend much time with people that separate the salvation of the NT into what was addressed to the Jews and what was addresses to the Gentiles. With that in mind I understand your aversion to works by those that are born of Spirit.

Have a nice day.


Bible study leader

Thanks for pointing out my error, bro. I was using the NKJ, my version of choice, and the word "heart" is most definately not there. I must have put that in without checking, as I have most of that memorized. My bad. It won't happen again, at least on that verse.
I do sometimes paraphrase a passage, but will say so if that is the case, or put the paraphrased word in brackets. I don't mind the use of opinions either, but try to admit it when I am doing that. In this case it is my opinion that this is said in the heart. I'm thinking that they were not going around saying that exact thing to each other or anyone. It was likey an assumption in thier case that they were ok and on the right track. But we weren't there. Jesus did however, point out that they were lacking something critical but were not aware of it. We know that much.

BTW, though I am open to listening, I have not as a rule seperated the addressed salvation from Jews or Gentiles. But the knowledge of who the letter of James was written to does help in understanding the language he used with them and the background they were coming from. In my opinion and understanding, salvation is not different from the point of how it is provided (re:Acts 4:12). But it would logically involve differences in what each group or person might have to change their mind about in coming to faith.
Blessings, Howie

 

[afaithfulone4u]

When I ask, "Can we have relationship with the God without coming under His authority, I am not talking about a distant relationship of "believing" He exists (as do devils) or having sporadic conversations with God as did Cain.

I am speaking about a vital, intimate, harmonic relationship with the Lord by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, God spoke to Cain and Cain refused to come under God's authority. In that respect, God speaks to many. But that is not the relationship I am speaking about.

I am speaking about being a co-heir with Christ as an adopted son.

I believe all those who refused to come under the Lord's authority in the OT could not have intimate relationship with God and ultimately were destroyed in the wilderness (for instance). Relationship must be on God's terms, not ours. We should not be deceived into thinking that if we believe He exists and are receiving His benefits (as even sinners do), that we are somehow "made safe".

I believe, to receive His forgiveness for your sins, one must receive Christ (John 1:12). Christ is the "power" to become a son of God. Christ is the personification of mercy and forgiveness. The attributes of God are not just "hanging" up in the sky just over your head and you just pick which one you want. You cannot separate the attributes of God from God. So, in order to receive forgiveness for your sins from Christ, you must receive Christ and when you are making the choice to receive Christ you are making the choice to come under His authority in your life.

It is the authority of Jesus Christ being welcomed in our life that gives us security. Security is not found in creeds, or prayers, or works. It is only found in Christ.

Again, we cannot divorce promises in the Bible from the Person of Jesus Christ. And if we want Jesus Christ in our lives, we must ascent to His terms of relationship, not our own.

There are countless examples of those in the OT and NT that would not submit to the authority of God in their lives. And the first one, was Lucifer.

Coming under His authority makes way for every provision we need: Security, Wholeness, Protection, Love, Hope, Freedom, etc.

Refusing to come under His authority for the basis of relationship brings: doubt, unbelief, insecurity, hopelessness, condemnation, successful attacks from the Adversary, hardness of heart, and bondage.

Axehead

Good Word!!
The answer is:
No, you can not. You must submit to the Word and humble yourself at his feet being guided by the Spirit for understanding. For everyknee will bow to the Word in the end and you can only say that Jesus IS your Lord(meaning able to follow him) by the Spirit. You can not truly love the Father if you hate His Word and refuse to make him the Lord of your life to LIVE By. For God is The Word and is Spirit and life.
John 6:64
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
KJV

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Good Word!!
The answer is:
No, you can not. You must submit to the Word and humble yourself at his feet being guided by the Spirit for understanding. For everyknee will bow to the Word in the end and you can only say that Jesus IS your Lord(meaning able to follow him) by the Spirit. You can not truly love the Father if you hate His Word and refuse to make him the Lord of your life to LIVE By. For God is The Word and is Spirit and life.
John 6:64
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
KJV

What do you mean by 'guided by the spirit'? Just don't share scripture, but exegete. Thanks...

 

[Axehead]

Good Word!!
The answer is:
No, you can not. You must submit to the Word and humble yourself at his feet being guided by the Spirit for understanding. For everyknee will bow to the Word in the end and you can only say that Jesus IS your Lord(meaning able to follow him) by the Spirit. You can not truly love the Father if you hate His Word and refuse to make him the Lord of your life to LIVE By. For God is The Word and is Spirit and life.
John 6:64
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
KJV

Amen, afaithfulone.

Conversely, whose authority is one "coming under" when they sin willfully?

Do you take yourself out from under the Lord's protective authority when you play in the Devil's playground?