Nothing in this age shall be perfect, but all that is spiritually in heaven already is. As long as we are physically alive on this earth, we look for what shall be in both heaven now, and on the NHNE after this heaven and earth passes away. Like the Apostle Paul, we desire to depart from this world to be with Christ in the Kingdom of God in heaven. But in heaven we are not complete, we must wait until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete before the NHNE comes. So, though we long to depart from this earth to be with the Lord in heaven, our greater hope is of what shall be when Christ comes again and everything shall be made new, without sin, and without death. No mortal being will exist there because being mortal means to die.
Isaiah 65:17 vs. Revelation 21:1. How many NHNEs does that equal?
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Nothing in this age shall be perfect, but all that is spiritually in heaven already is. As long as we are physically alive on this earth, we look for what shall be in both heaven now, and on the NHNE after this heaven and earth passes away. Like the Apostle Paul, we desire to depart from this world to be with Christ in the Kingdom of God in heaven. But in heaven we are not complete, we must wait until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete before the NHNE comes. So, though we long to depart from this earth to be with the Lord in heaven, our greater hope is of what shall be when Christ comes again and everything shall be made new, without sin, and without death. No mortal being will exist there because being mortal means to die.
Not to worry David! I know after some years having these discussions with you that you often come across as being tossed to and fro, not really understanding how you can believe this, but further how you could possibly believe that??? Until you begin to understand the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom that came with Christ, then you will forever be confused about the doctrine you've convinced yourself must be biblical, but in so many ways simply does not fit with what sayeth the Word of God. Good luck with that!
You've got this much almost right! Yes, it does involve a thousand years! Problem for you is to figure out how a thousand years can literally mean ONE thousand years without causing inconsistency and contradiction into the Word of God!
Why don't folks believe Isaiah when he says you're not going to remember?
Rev 21:1 can properly be understood like this>>>
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the former heaven and the earlier earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:1 can properly be understood like this>>>
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the former heaven and the earlier earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
This is yet another reason why it is perfectly logical that the NHNE come down with the return of Christ. In Revelation 19 we are first told this.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready
As if it makes sense that she is not then adorned for her husband until a thousand years and a little season later. IOW, a huge gap between this--- his wife hath made herself ready----and this---as a bride adorned for her husband. That would be like a bride making herself ready January 5th, 2024, for example, but not being adorned for her husband until sometime in 2030, for example. Totally preposterous that there could be a huge gap between those two things. Therefore, is one going to argue Revelation 19:7 is not meaning during the 2nd coming after all, but is meaning when they take Revelation 21:2 to be meaning, in this case, a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming?
It is things like this and these other things I have been arguing in this thread, that if it is true that the thousand years follow the 2nd, where I feel it is true, I have no choice but to conclude that the NHNE come down at the beginning of the thousand years. Otherwise I'm making nonsense out of Revelation 19:7 and Revelation 21:2 since there couldn't possibly be this huge gap between this--- his wife hath made herself ready--and this---as a bride adorned for her husband
Since I couldn't possibly be wrong about when the NHNE comes down, this means one of two things then. I am correct that the NHNE comes down at the beginning of the thousand years. Or that I am incorrect that the thousand years follow the 2nd coming. There is no 3rd option, not for me nor for any Premil, since there is no way of getting around Revelation 19:7 vs. Revelation 21:2. Not to mention, there is no way of getting around Isaiah 65:17 vs. Revelation 21:1, either.
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That's exactly what it is meaning. In Isaiah 65:17 when it indicates the former will not come to mind, it is meaning the first heaven, the first earth that pertains to Revelation 21:1. This is not rocket science. Unfortunately, apparently some are not capable of reasoning through any of these things, thus challenging what they have been taught. All they are mostly good at is parroting what their teachers taught them rather than taking the extra time and effort to examine what they have been taught, to see whether it's even logical or not. As to me, I had no teachers that taught me anything one way or the other, pertaining to Eschatology & Prophecy. I form my own opinions based on my own reading of things. And if I am wrong about any of those things, and I'm sure I am, since there is not one person that is never wrong about anything, I only have myself to blame since I can't blame it on any teachers that misled me or something.
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Folks should understand that "orthodoxy" doesn't have a corner on truth. It just postures up like it does. It's pretense. Orthodox beliefs remain beliefs.
Being orthodox, or having orthodox beliefs is all about conforming.
It's theology by majority rule.
You are wise to let the spirit lead where it will.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
To be perfectly honest, you raise good questions, and I can't completely resolve the contradiction. But there are still options, and if I had to choose one, I would choose the one that checks off most of the boxes.
1) Christ's Coming precedes a thousand year period, and the thousand year period appears to still have mortal humanity on the old earth. Isa 65.
2) The hope we have in the new earth may have a preliminary fulfillment not on the old earth, but in a heavenly New Jerusalem, before it comes down from heaven. This is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the temple, viewed upon a high mountain, that never had a fulfillment on earth. The people of the old earth relate to the New Jerusalem in a spiritual way, and not in a physical way.
3) The New Earth has a preliminary spiritual fulfillment before it actually becomes the New Earth. That spiritual fulfillment begins with the realization of God's promises in the Millennium and proceeds to result in the New Earth at the end of that period.
Isa 65.1 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth... 18 for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy... 20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
Verse 1 may suggest there is a revelation dawning with the inception of the Millennial Age, the Kingdom of Messiah. Verse 18 suggests that this will be a fulfillment of Israel's promised national restoration. Verse 20 suggests this will begin while the earth's population is still mortal.
My conclusion is that in light of Rev 20, the revelation of the New Earth may not be fully realized at the 2nd Coming of Christ, but only preliminary to that event. The vision of the New Earth shows why the Millennial Age is coming into existence, in preparation for a New Earth. Pure theory on my part!
Rev 20.They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.... 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison... 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them... 21.1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband...
This suggests to me that the actual realization of the New Earth contrasts with the initial vision of the New Jerusalem because Jerusalem is initially attacked by ungodly men at the end of the Millennial Age. Jerusalem already existed as the fulfillment of God's City, but was still mortal and was still being attacked.
So New Jerusalem, by contrast with this earthly City, is heavenly and only comes down from heaven at the end of the Millennium. The Millennial City of Jerusalem was preliminary but as yet not completely fulfilled. That takes place at the end of the Millennium when New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to lodge upon the New Earth.
Conclusion: the New Earth experiences a preliminary fulfillment at Christ's 2nd Coming. But it is not fully realized until Satan is fully punished and sentenced, so that the New Jerusalem, a heavenly Jerusalem, can lodge upon the earth never more to be molested.
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The problem with your reasoning David is that you are trying to force the NHNE to come down in TIME, that you think will be one thousand literal years. The NHNE don't come down until after TIME shall be no longer.
The day of the Lord's coming will be accompanied by the heavens passing away, and the earth also and the works therein shall be burned up. This to make way for the new heavens and new earth wherein dwells righteousness.
2 Peter 3:9-13 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
This is the last day, the day of judgment, the day of Christ's coming again to raise up immortal and incorruptible all who are saved, the spiritual body of the saints who return with Christ on that day. Where are these dead who return with Christ coming from, if not from the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven where they have been since they have physically died?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Well yea, I was raised Amill and have been influenced by Premill for the last 50 years! It's a dilemma. My sense is that if we are to take Rev 20 literally then the Millennium has not happened yet, and New Jerusalem, if it comes down at all at that time, will be a strictly spiritual phenomenon.
Ezekiel's Temple was purely a vision on a mountain top. It was not built in Ezekiel's time.
Similarly, heavenly Jerusalem may be purely a spiritual phenomenon, fulfilled when the Church returns with Christ. This heavenly Jerusalem may only be responsible for initiating a mortal Kingdom on earth, not yet being physically established on earth.
At the time of Christ's Coming, this heavenly Jerusalem, Christ and his Church, will establish the restoration of Israel on earth, along with the restoration of Christianity among the nations. And at the end of the Millennium, the heavenly Jerusalem will actually be realized on the earth.
But it seems that heavenly Jerusalem remains in heaven, just like Ezekiel's Temple was a heavenly vision and was not immediately fulfilled on earth. Heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and is realized on the New Earth only at the end of the thousand years.
All this is predicated on the thought that the "Millennium" will be an actual literal thousand years that begin at Christ's 2nd Coming. It's difficult.... I'm not overly dogmatic about this.
Christ's first coming ushered in this period of time symbolized a thousand years. A time when Satan is bound and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is sent unto all the nations of the world that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven might be complete. This is the time period Isa 65 pertains to. The prophecy speaks of the everlasting Kingdom of God in heaven, that in this age is a spiritual Kingdom.
Exactly! The heavenly Jerusalem shall come down from heaven to the new earth once the spiritual Kingdom of God has been completed as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
You understand a preliminary SPIRITUAL fulfillment but then force a literal millennium to come? The spiritual fulfillment indeed does begin in this time symbolized a thousand years, and precedes the coming of the NHNE at the end of this symbolic period of time.
Roger, there is no way to fit the great white throne judgment into a single 24 hour day or less. Therefore, the last day of this age couldn't possibly be meaning the NHNE in the manner you are taking it to the mean, that it follows after the thousand years, after satans's little season, after the the great white throne judgment. Once again, the great white throne judgment couldn't possibly fit within the last day of this age since the last day of this age would have to be involving 24 hours or less. Otherwise this makes Premil more plausible if the last day of this age is involving an era of time rather than 24 hours or less, and that Amils are arguing against Premil.
What might be helpful here, how do you as an Amil envision things happening when Christ initially returns?
Let's say He returns at 12 AM on a Saturday. Obviously, 24 hours later it is no longer Saturday, it is now Sunday, another day, not the day He just returned during. You would have us believe that while it is still Saturday, the great white throne judgment will have taken place and concluded before it is Sunday, thus no longer the day He returned during?
Not to mention, there are things such as the following to factor in as well, which appears to be meaning before the time of the great white throne judgment, not after it.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Using my previous example, does it sound like before it is Sunday, thus no longer the day He returned during, that all of the above is entirely fulfilled during Saturday?
One last thing. One can't argue that the last day of this age happens outside of time, since outside of time couldn't possibly have a last day.
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Speaking mainly to Amils here. No one in particular, though.
Zechariah 14 aside, though we Premils believe it undeniably supports Premil, one of the strongest arguments in favor of Premil is what I already brought up, that being Matthew 19:28.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
If this can't get fulfilled until Christ returns first, and that it is meaning before the great white throne judgment, rather than after, obviously then, there has to be an era of time that explains where this can fit. Clearly, 24 hours or less is not remotely the era of time this can fit. But let's just ignore any of that, though. Let's instead insist that the thousand years are meaning now rather than in the future. Who cares if that causes an issue with Matthew 19:28, in that case, right?
Zechariah 14 aside, though we Premils believe it undeniably supports Premil, one of the strongest arguments in favor of Premil is what I already brought up, that being Matthew 19:28.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
If this can't get fulfilled until Christ returns first, and that it is meaning before the great white throne judgment, rather than after, obviously then, there has to be an era of time that explains where this can fit. Clearly, 24 hours or less is not remotely the era of time this can fit. But let's just ignore any of that, though. Let's instead insist that the thousand years are meaning now rather than in the future. Who cares if that causes an issue with Matthew 19:28, in that case, right?
Yet, God spoke all things in heaven and earth into existence in 6 days! Consider what John writes regarding the sounding of the seventh/last trumpet.
John writes in the day(s) of the voice of the seventh angel. I don't know how you read this, but I'm inclined to believe that days (plural) will follow the sounding of the last trumpet. The trumpet sounds and time when the angel begins to sound marks the end of time given this age. But the days to follow, which I don't believe will be longer than Satan's little season, many things are written to come to pass during the days when the last trumpet sounds.
Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
This shall be brief and not a comprehensive accounting of every minute detail of what I believe shall come to pass.
The first thing to happen after time symbolized a thousand years have ended, Satan will be set free to gather together Gog & Magog in a final attempt to keep the spiritual Kingdom of God from being complete.
Followed by the rapture of the Saints. First those saints who have physically died will be resurrected in immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh, then the saints still alive in the end of days will be changed from mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible and together with those who were resurrected shall all meet the Lord in the air.
Then fire will come down from God out of heaven to burn up the heavens and earth and every living thing. Nothing shall be spared the fire of God's wrath.
The DEAD, those in unbelief will be physically resurrected also and called to stand before God at the GWTJ to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. The GWTJ shall not be on the first earth, because John writes "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." After the GWTJ with the DEAD being cast into the LOF that is the second death, it will be time for the saints to receive their inheritance.
Then there will be a new heaven and new earth, the saints with the Lord will come down from heaven as the holy city, new Jerusalem, prepared as a bride for her husband. And the dwelling place of God will be with men and they shall be His people and He shall be their God. The new age has dawned, the everlasting age that shall never end with all things being made new.
Since God can speak and all things in heaven and on earth be created and finished in 6 days, is there really any doubt that in the days when the last trumpet shall begin to sound, all that is written to come shall without fail be accomplished through Him?
I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
God isn't a man with fingers that He crosses behind His back when making promises.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
.. and even wiser to know and believe that we can also misunderstand where the Spirit and the Word are leading if we are under a false impression about something else that pertains to what the Spirit and the Word are saying.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
There is also no way of getting round the fact that of those who John saw as having come out from great tribulation in Revelation 7 and those in the NHNE in Revelation 21, the following is said:
"They are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.
To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes."
The above is a combined quote taken from both chapters in the Revelation.
That's true at times. Often, folks are unable to understand or unwilling to accept those promptings simply because they are in opposition to things they were taught and have come to believe. But that is the actual work of the spirit. They should discard their false beliefs and follow the spirit, but instead they reject the spirit and cling to their false beliefs.
Imagine the boy Jesus-- if he was to have been brought up in the Jewish faith-- the Jewish practice of 'religion' and all that came along with it at that time. At some point, when the word of the Father was sent to him, he had to reject those ideas, those practices and doctrines and dogmas-- and follow the spirit that delivered the word of the Father to him. The messenger was sent to oppose the false ideas, correct the record and set the path straight. It was indeed a narrow way, while the broad path-- the orthodox beliefs, led to destruction.
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