Israel And The Church

[[email protected]]

It's a general contention against those who despise the truth in God's Word about the two houses of Israel. It's a continuation of proof from what Australia posted from Ezek.37. I don't suspect that contention includes you Tom, since in an earlier post you've already shown you know about that from God's Word.

As for how today's Dispensationalists are really getting farther away from Paul's usage of the term, see teachings by C.R. Stam.

Your brief quote and interpretation of Ezek 37 isn't wrong as far as I'm aware. Dispensationalist arguments are always confusing, mainly because most of the adherents confuse their fallible interpretation of scripture with the infallability of scripture itself.

I am part of a weekly men's group currently meeting to read and discuss the book Millenial Maze by Grentz. It's a short 8 chapter work. After pouring through the first 4 chapters one of our number is totally confused by the multiple versions of millenialism and rapturism. Still another has lapsed into silence and does not participate in the discussion at all.

The bickering goes on and on and it has become my conclusion that the rapture cult is anti-productive to the true understanding of prophetic scriptural futurism.

 

[Martin W.]

Veteran is Israel

Is that what you want me to say ?

 

[tomwebster]

Veteran is Israel

Is that what you want me to say ?

Veteran is of Israel would likely be more accurate. Many in the Christian countries of the world are of Israel by blood line. Some of them know it! Study the migrations.

 

[veteran]

[quote]
Your brief quote and interpretation of Ezek 37 isn't wrong as far as I'm aware. Dispensationalist arguments are always confusing, mainly because most of the adherents confuse their fallible interpretation of scripture with the infallability of scripture itself.

I am part of a weekly men's group currently meeting to read and discuss the book Millenial Maze by Grentz. It's a short 8 chapter work. After pouring through the first 4 chapters one of our number is totally confused by the multiple versions of millenialism and rapturism. Still another has lapsed into silence and does not participate in the discussion at all.

The bickering goes on and on and it has become my conclusion that the rapture cult is anti-productive to the true understanding of prophetic scriptural futurism.
[/quote]


Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
(KJV)

Our Heavenly Father gave that through His prophet Isaiah within a section of Scripture when He will abolish anything worshipped besides Him.

We may always expect confusion if we go to man for the Truth, instead of directly to our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word by The Holy Spirit.

There are some here on earth that preach when The LORD did not call them. They preach for gain, for barley and wheat. Our Lord Jesus called those a "hireling" (John 10). When the wolves come they run, for their care is not for Christ's sheep but for their own selves. They treat preaching and the selling of many books as a business. Those are the types that stand in front of the mirror and practice their great oratories before delivering them to Christ's sheep with smoothness and great conviction. Since they have no real depth of understanding directly from God in His Word, they've got to come up with something else. That something else are the doctrines and commandments of men, their own traditions apart from God's Truth.

Our Lord Jesus showed that with His miracles of the loaves and fishes, and the leaven metaphor. Twelve baskets of fragments were gathered up after the multitudes were fed. His Word as The Bread of Life went out to the multitudes whole, but it returned multiplied as fragments, His Truth being broken up into little pieces with men's traditions added.

With the leaven metaphor, our Lord used the idea of unleavened bread (non-yeast bread) to represent His Truth. Unleaven bread is more dense, thicker in body. Leavened bread where yeast is added makes that same loaf rise and look bigger. But in reality, the leavened bread has more tiny holes created by the yeast to make it bigger. Such is the ways of the doctrines of men added to God's Word.


Matt 16:6-12
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, He said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that He bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
(KJV)

 

[veteran]

Veteran is of Israel would likely be more accurate. Many in the Christian countries of the world are of Israel by blood line. Some of them know it! Study the migrations.

True, many who think they are Gentiles may well discover their ancient heritage from the ten lost tribes of Israel.

Amos 9:9-12
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by My name, saith the LORD That doeth this.
(KJV)

Because our Heavenly Father said He will sift the house of Israel (ten tribes) as corn through a sieve in gathering them and not the least grain will fall to the ground, that means HE knows exactly where the ten lost tribes are today. Man may not know where they are, but God does know and has always known where He scattered them.

 

[Vincent]

Fascinating topic. I realize this is an old thread but I just came across it.

veteran, if you don't mind, please clarify this for me. It sounds like you're saying that even the gentiles can become a part of Israel (spiritually) through faith in Jesus. But it also sounds like you're saying many who think they are gentiles are actually blood descendants of the original Israel without even realizing it. These are two completely separate issues are they not? Or are these two issues related somehow?

 

[veteran]

Fascinating topic. I realize this is an old thread but I just came across it.

veteran, if you don't mind, please clarify this for me. It sounds like you're saying that even the gentiles can become a part of Israel (spiritually) through faith in Jesus. But it also sounds like you're saying many who think they are gentiles are actually blood descendants of the original Israel without even realizing it. These are two completely separate issues are they not? Or are these two issues related somehow?

Finally, someone who noticed there's a difference between those two points.

Prophecy in God's Word about His Salvation going to another nation (as Gentilic nations) that would bring forth its vineyard's fruits has involved a literal seed of Israel with them all along. There's actually 3 points of difference, 3 different Israel concepts...

1. nation of Judah (Jews of the "house of Judah"; nation state called Israel in holy land, and scattered Jews).
2. nation of Israel (Israelites of the "house of Israel" kingdom per God's Word; ten tribes of Israel only).
3. spiritual Israel (believing Israelites and Gentiles both as one Body under Christ Jesus).


The founders of the western Christian nations were mostly Israelites of the scattered ten tribes to Asia Minor and Europe. After the Jews in Jerusalem refused The Gospel It was then preached next among the ten tribes scattered among Gentiles in Asia Minor and Europe. Britain historically became the first nation to receive Christ on a national scale in the 1st century A.D. (see historians like Bede). Four Catholic Councils have conceded that history, even as Augustine admitted the existence of Christian bishops already established in Britain when he first traveled there (those bishops didn't give Augustine a very warm welcome because of his preaching of a "bishop of bishops"). A Christian king of the Britons dwelt at the Palladeum Britannicum in Rome during the time of Apostle Paul in Rome.

The Assyrian tablet writings and the Behistun Rock (northern Iraq) exist to testify of the ten tribes during their captivity there, and Assyrian names associated with them, like Cymri and Khumri. University of Michigan professor Leroy Waterman translated one of their names in 1930 from the Assyrian tablets. It's the origin of the name Cimmerian. The Cimmerians were the Caucasian peoples that crossed around the Black Sea through the Caucasus Mountains when migrating westward into Asia Minor and Europe. The migrations involved great multitudes of Cimmerians in several stages, including the Scythians that followed after them.

Just how many peoples made up the Cimmerians? The Celts, Gauls, Normans, Norsk, Germani, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, etc., basically, the early northern European peoples, and many of those in Asia Minor. Is it any wonder that Apostle Paul would write Epistles to them? The root word of Galatians is the name Gaul of the Cimmerian tribes. This is why Christ's Apostles went to those areas of Asia Minor and western Europe with The Gospel. That's where God scattered the majority of Israelites to.

That is a whole lot different than ideas that scattered ten tribes of Israel only made up a few people here and there in small groups. No, they were scattered in inumberable multitudes, having no doubt increased in greater numbers while captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes before migrating into Asia Minor and Europe. The total number of the ten tribes way outnumbered the Jews of the house of Judah. This is why Jewish historians like Josephus (100 A.D.) would declare the ten tribes were still scattered abroad in his day, and were a great people, too many to be counted.

Why this is important, is because it shows God's Promises are True. It also flies in the face of His enemies that want to destroy His chosen people of Israel. It provokes unbelieving Judah to jealousy all the more too. This is how God's prophecy that Jacob's seed would become "a company of nations" and Ephraim "a multitude of nations" was fulfilled. Jacob's new name of Israel is attached to it. When Apostle Paul taught The Gospel going to Gentiles in Romans using prophecy from Hosea, he no doubt understood this part, because the Hosea prophecy was specifically given about the ten tribes of Israel. He did not specifically cover this because how would Gentiles not of the ten tribes have understood? It's not for them. It's for scattered Israel, so the faithful among them would know God had not forgotten them.

What it also reveals is why the western Christian nations have been so blessed over other nations which refuse our Heavenly Father. God's Salvation through His Son includes His original blessings to Israel which began through Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph,, and finally to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. God proclaimed the "house of Israel" as His "vineyard" in Isaiah 5. So when our Lord Jesus said in Matt.21 that He would give His vineyard to another 'nation' that would bring forth its fruits, this is what He was talking about, the moving of the ten tribes of Israel to new lands, and along with Gentiles accepting The Gospel in the West to become the western Christian nations of early western history. The ten tribes became 'Ami' (My people) again, and the Gentiles at the same time became 'Ami' (My people) along with them. Is it any wonder that these first would take The Gospel to all the other peoples on earth?

 

[Vincent]

Wow. Sounds like you really know your history. That's a lot to absorb.

But I thought the vineyard being given to another nation was referring to the gospel being given to the gentiles because the Jews had rejected it. Isn't that the same as the servants being told to invite those along the highway, both good and bad, to the wedding feast because the original invitees refused to come?

 

[veteran]

Wow. Sounds like you really know your history. That's a lot to absorb.

But I thought the vineyard being given to another nation was referring to the gospel being given to the gentiles because the Jews had rejected it. Isn't that the same as the servants being told to invite those along the highway, both good and bad, to the wedding feast because the original invitees refused to come?

Yes and no. God defined His vineyard as "the house of Israel" per Isaiah 5.

Isa 5:7
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(KJV)

In Isaiah 3:14-15, God refers to His people as the vineyard. He gives a rebuke to the ancients of His people (leaders) and the princes about how they had eaten up the vineyard (His people), the spoil of the poor being in their houses. Judah (Jews) was given care of His law and the throne of royal rule over the people of Israel (Gen.49:10; 1 Chronicles 5). The vineyard is put for the ten tribed "house of Israel", i.e., the majority of the people.

It was the Jews of the house of Judah that as a majority refused The Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the majority of the people of Israel (vineyard). The majority of the people of Israel were already separated from the men of Judah and scattered out of the holy land before Christ's first coming. It was the leaders of the Jews of the house of Judah that our Lord Jesus was talking to about doing wickedly against His vineyard of the people and Him.

Matt 21:40-41
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto Him, "He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus even allowed those leaders among the Jews to pronounce their own fate involving His vineyard of the peoples of Israel. It's why when the chief priests and Pharisees of the Jews heard the parable, they perceived He was talking about them as the wicked husbandmen (Matt.21:45).

Isa 27:2-6
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in Me: who would set the briers and thorns against Me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
5 Or let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me.
6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.
(KJV)

It has not been unbelieving Judah (Jews) that produced the fruits, but the people of the house of Israel, God's vineyard that He removed from control of the unbelieving Jews, and placed among the Gentiles.

 

[Disciple]

All that beleive upon Jesus Christ are the true Isreal, the Isreal in the Spirit and not the flesh, Gods chosen children that he foreknew before the foundations of the world. The children of faith, the children of promise, born of the freewoman Sarah and not the bondwoman Agar. Through faith we are graffed into Isreal and are now the children of God Almighty.
Praise God
devon

 

[veteran]

All that beleive upon Jesus Christ are the true Isreal, the Isreal in the Spirit and not the flesh, Gods chosen children that he foreknew before the foundations of the world. The children of faith, the children of promise, born of the freewoman Sarah and not the bondwoman Agar. Through faith we are graffed into Isreal and are now the children of God Almighty.
Praise God
devon

That's right. But some always want to forget how that includes the believing seed of Israel that were scattered among the Gentiles, and lost their heritage as Israel, and became as Gentiles. That seed of Israel is about the ten lost tribes, not Judah (Jews) which kept their heritage of Israel. I'm not forgetting the Gentiles in Christ's Salvation with this. I'm simply covering God's prophecy about the scattered ten tribes of Israel, which historically were the majority of the peoples of Israel, His vineyard.

When the vineyard was given to other husbandmen to bring forth its fruits, that's about the majority of lost Israel among the Gentiles, and both together becoming one under Christ Jesus. Those who keep preaching that the seed of Israel are all Jews of Judah and that all Israel refused Christ are going against God's prophecy, and history. This how God's promises to the seed of Israel kept going, but among the Gentiles that also believed along with them. It manifested in the Christian west first after Christ's crucifixion, and then spread to all nations.

 

[[email protected]]

The name Israel has always been connected to God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ and His Church. Notice I said the 'name' or title of Israel (means to 'prevail with God').

I think you are reading a different Bible than the one I read. You may also be reading a different newspaper than the one everybody else reads.

The Bible states that there was once an ancient nation called Israel.
Archeological evidence has proven that this isn't some fairy tale or metaphor.
It was real.

There is a flag that now flies over Tel Aviv today.
It is blue and white and bears the symbol of the Star of David.
The flag represents the modern nation of Israel.
It is real.

Today as ever, the Jew is a problem.
This is especially true for those who can't quite figure out how to justify their exclusive Christian ideology in light of the fact that God has had and continues to have a special relationship with the Jewish people. This is the main reason why we get all these long winded extrapolations of scripture and scholarly explanations about 'spiritual Israel'. It's all a lot of rubbish.

Speaking to the nation of Israel through His prophet Amos, God once said:
"You only have I known of all the families of the earth:"
Amos 3:2a

Two thousand years ago God began to offer salvation to the gentiles; the 'other families' of the earth.
Does this mean that He denies the Jew from heaven and the nation of Israel from His affection?
I doubt it. I really do.
In fact, one may go so far as to insist that a context of ideology be presented to affirm that argument. Such a serious matter requires more than a snippet of verses gathered from here and there in the pages of the good book(s). Such an ideology must also include words written by the Jews themselves, since they are intimately involved in the matter.

You know what? You're not going to find any. Not anywhere!

That leaves us with the problem of the Jew as well as the nation of Israel both ancient and modern.

For my part, I see no problem.
I've got enough to do, simply to live my life as God would have me live it without worrying about condeming the Jews and Israel.

You want God's truth?
We are each of us called to respond to the truth that God gives us. None need understand all truth, just the little we get.
That's all.

That includes the Jew, who answers to God as much as any gentile.

Personally I think it's hard enough being a Jew these days without having self-styled prophets cutting them out of God's grace.

The gospel is for the Jew as well as the gentile.
Israel is a manifestation of the hand of God.
Why not leave it at that and rejoice?
Miracles of much smaller degree have been the focus of rejoicing, how much more for Israel?

Unless of course the issue is really bigotry, then we've got something else to talk about.

 

[whirlwind]

The gospel is for the Jew as well as the gentile.
Israel is a manifestation of the hand of God.
Why not leave it at that and rejoice?
Miracles of much smaller degree have been the focus of rejoicing, how much more for Israel?

Unless of course the issue is really bigotry, then we've got something else to talk about.

Is it biogtry to recognize one's brother? Of course, to do that one must recognize who they themselves are.


Of the twelve tribes....two are Jewish. They are "the house of Judah," Judah and Benjamin. The other ten are the house of Israel. All twelve are Israel but not all are Jewish.


The two houses will be joined one day...soon.

.

 

[Johnoneone]

This says just what you did. Jews were first offered the gospel then everyone else. The jews are saved like everyone else, they were first not the last. Acts 3:25-26 http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 3.25–26#footnote025 You are the sons of the prophets and of http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 3.25–26#footnote1the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 3.25–26#footnote2And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 3.25–26#footnote326 God, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 3.25–26#footnote4having raised up his servant, sent him to you first http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 3.25–26#footnote5to bless you http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 3.25–26#footnote6by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

 

[veteran]

I think you are reading a different Bible than the one I read. You may also be reading a different newspaper than the one everybody else reads.

The Bible states that there was once an ancient nation called Israel.
Archeological evidence has proven that this isn't some fairy tale or metaphor.
It was real.

There is a flag that now flies over Tel Aviv today.
It is blue and white and bears the symbol of the Star of David.
The flag represents the modern nation of Israel.
It is real.

Today as ever, the Jew is a problem.
This is especially true for those who can't quite figure out how to justify their exclusive Christian ideology in light of the fact that God has had and continues to have a special relationship with the Jewish people. This is the main reason why we get all these long winded extrapolations of scripture and scholarly explanations about 'spiritual Israel'. It's all a lot of rubbish.

Speaking to the nation of Israel through His prophet Amos, God once said:
"You only have I known of all the families of the earth:"
Amos 3:2a

Two thousand years ago God began to offer salvation to the gentiles; the 'other families' of the earth.
Does this mean that He denies the Jew from heaven and the nation of Israel from His affection?
I doubt it. I really do.
In fact, one may go so far as to insist that a context of ideology be presented to affirm that argument. Such a serious matter requires more than a snippet of verses gathered from here and there in the pages of the good book(s). Such an ideology must also include words written by the Jews themselves, since they are intimately involved in the matter.

You know what? You're not going to find any. Not anywhere!

That leaves us with the problem of the Jew as well as the nation of Israel both ancient and modern.

For my part, I see no problem.
I've got enough to do, simply to live my life as God would have me live it without worrying about condeming the Jews and Israel.

You want God's truth?
We are each of us called to respond to the truth that God gives us. None need understand all truth, just the little we get.
That's all.

That includes the Jew, who answers to God as much as any gentile.

Personally I think it's hard enough being a Jew these days without having self-styled prophets cutting them out of God's grace.

The gospel is for the Jew as well as the gentile.
Israel is a manifestation of the hand of God.
Why not leave it at that and rejoice?
Miracles of much smaller degree have been the focus of rejoicing, how much more for Israel?

Unless of course the issue is really bigotry, then we've got something else to talk about.

I've enjoyed some of the ancient history research you've written, but that doesn't mean you have a similiar in-depth understanding of God's Word. You're kinda' going out in left field with the above, it does not address the subject I was speaking about.

The most important Biblical fact, and REAL fact concerning God's Salvation Plan, is that ALL MUST CONFESS JESUS CHRIST AS THE SAVIOUR TO BE SAVED. No if's, and's, or but's.

Another fact of reality is that the majority of Jews today still do NOT confess Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour, but trust in a future coming of Messiah, or not in one at all.

If you would spend equal time in God's Word and its history, then you will learn how God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms long ago, creating two separate branches of Israelites, one still with their heritage of old Israel, and another branch that completely lost their heritage as part of Israel. 1 Kings 11 forward is one place to start with that Bible history.

You would also learn from God's OT prophets, that even though God divorced the Israelite branch that lost their heritage as Israel (i.e., the ten tribes), He still declared His working and specific promises through them, even while they were lost to themselves as to their true identity. And in final God promised to gather a remnant of them that are faithful, which especially involves their acceptance of His Son as His promised Saviour.

In other words, you would learn that branch of Israel that lost knowledge of who they are, God never did lose them. And you would understand THAT BRANCH OF ISRAEL ARE NOT JEWS.

You then... might begin to grasp from God's Word how the name 'Israel' is a token name given to Jacob involving God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ for ALL peoples that believe on The Saviour. When Jesus said God is The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob, that is about God's Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, and its transfer along with His Birthright promises from Abraham, then to Isaac, and then to Jacob who was named 'Israel'. That name Israel was given to Jacob PRIOR to any nation founding in the holy lands of promise. That name Israel is forever linked to the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham.

The unbelieving Jews rejected The Saviour Jesus Christ. That's why God's Birthright promises cannot be found in the nation state of Israel in the holy land anymore. Yet God did make some other specific promises to David, Jerusalem, and the house of Judah (Jews) for His sake (1 Kings 11; Jer.24), and that's why the nation state of Israel exists in the holy land today; even though it's made up of a majority of unbelieving Jews from three tribes (Judah, Benjamin, and a portion of Levi).

But the Jews were by no means the majority of the seed of Israelites after the split of old Israel. The number of Israelites of the ten lost tribes ("house of Israel" after 1 Kings 12) far outnumbered the branch of Israel that became known as Jews (i.e., "house of Judah" per God's Word, and per Jewish historians like Josephus).

The unbelieving Jews are still brothers to the Israel of the ten lost tribes that God scattered among the Gentiles. Yet what will happen to the unbelievers of the Jews when Christ returns to claim the holy lands of promise for those who have believed on Him? Those who still remain in unbelief will be cut off from those lands. Once Christ returns, those who still refuse Him that want to claim those lands won't be able to. Their consolation is that when Christ does return, many of them will then understand Whom they rejected. And many of them will then believe during the future thousand years reign of Christ. But for today, the majority of the Jews have been blinded away from Christ Jesus, so God's Salvation would also go to the Gentiles.