It is finished

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I am not quite sure what you mean by "perfect offspring." If you could elaborate it would be great so as I can understand your assertion better.

I cannot perceive how a conscience could incur guilt without having the capacity to reason and thus actually CHOOSE to do wrong.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Before he sinned, Adam had one mind. He did not know evil, so he was one with GOD. Afterwards, he knew evil and became one with evil, just like when a man knows a woman he becomes one flesh with her. At this point Adam had a mind that knew GOD and a mind of the flesh that knew evil. Because GOD (the father) had departed from him (because he had become one with evil), Adam could only have the mind of GOD through faith through the witness of the spirit, but the mind of the flesh was naturally with him because it was him, i.e. the flesh. His spirit was dead, his body would one day die, as well as his soul if he did not maintain the mind of GOD through faith.

When children are born they don't know the difference between good and evil, yet they still do evil. That is because they have inherited the mind of the flesh from their father. The mind of the flesh is corruption, a flawed operating system (computer terminology) that gets passed (replicated) from generation to generation. No man is able to not sin except one: the man who doesn't know evil. The son of man was sinless because he didn't know sin (because he did not receive any inheritance from Adam via Joseph), and subsequently didn't choose to sin. Sin involves more than just the will, or reason.

Which leads to the next point. Guilt offerings were part of GOD's economy in dealing with the kingdom of Israel that dealt with the issue of a man's conscience becoming defiled just from something he did or even heard, but didn't know was wrong. So if defilement of sin can occur through ignorance, not all sin is a matter of choice or reason.

 

[ScottAU]

Before he sinned, Adam had one mind. He did not know evil, so he was one with GOD. Afterwards, he knew evil and became one with evil, just like when a man knows a woman he becomes one flesh with her. At this point Adam had a mind that knew GOD and a mind of the flesh that knew evil. Because GOD (the father) had departed from him (because he had become one with evil), Adam could only have the mind of GOD through faith through the witness of the spirit, but the mind of the flesh was naturally with him because it was him, i.e. the flesh. His spirit was dead, his body would one day die, as well as his soul if he did not maintain the mind of GOD through faith.

When children are born they don't know the difference between good and evil, yet they still do evil. That is because they have inherited the mind of the flesh from their father. The mind of the flesh is corruption, a flawed operating system (computer terminology) that gets passed (replicated) from generation to generation. No man is able to not sin except one: the man who doesn't know evil. The son of man was sinless because he didn't know sin (because he did not receive any inheritance from Adam via Joseph), and subsequently didn't choose to sin. Sin involves more than just the will, or reason.

Which leads to the next point. Guilt offerings were part of GOD's economy in dealing with the kingdom of Israel that dealt with the issue of a man's conscience becoming defiled just from something he did or even heard, but didn't know was wrong. So if defilement of sin can occur through ignorance, not all sin is a matter of choice or reason.

While it is true that there were offerings to be made for non-presumptuous sin it appears to me that those offerings exist in order that one simply does not "blow over" wrong doing due to ignorance but instead takes it seriously. Yet I cannot perceive how the existence of sin offerings for non-presumptuous sin can be used to imply a "corruption of the human constitution which is passed down from Adam." There is simply no mention of any such thing in the Bible and therefore such a contention is purely philosophically based.

You are using the likeness of a "corrupted computer program" to paint the picture of an "inborn sin nature" which NECESSITATES actual sinning. This belief completely negates the concept of being personally responsible for one's sin because the "inborn sin nature NECESSITATED the sin."

In other words one cannot logically contend that sin is both a choice and a nature.

If a human being is born with a "corrupted constitution" which has been passed down from Adam and are thus UNABLE to make the virtuous choice then the sinfulness of man is likened to a disease and all men are victims of this condition.

On the other hand, if a human being is born in a state of ignorance but with an "upright constitution" (due to the light of conscience Joh 1:9) and thus has the FULL CAPABILITY to make the virtuous choice when the ability to reason is sufficient, and then CHOOSES to sin (being drawn away by lust), then such an action is a crime and man is not a victim but is instead a criminal.

I do not see the first view taught in Scripture, I do see the second alluded to all over the place. While it is true that Jesus is the great physician sent to heal those who are sick, the context is in regards to a spiritual sickness brought on via the misuse of the will in regards to CHOOSING to sin. We are indeed born into a physical state of sickness and corruption due to the curse.

 

[Rex]

The son of man was sinless because he didn't know sin (because he did not receive any inheritance from Adam via Joseph), and subsequently didn't choose to sin. Sin involves more than just the will, or reason.

I don't want to move from the topic but I don't understand the context the same as you.

1 John 4:2-3
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Heb 2:17
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

So again knowing that Jesus was born a Spiritual man and not a man of the dust.

1 Cor 15
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

Again were getting into the unclear just were does the flesh and spirit meet, IMO Jesus a life giving spirit was placed in the same flesh we all share, the difference is he drove a perfect race with it. Heb 2:17 17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way,

Just the same I'll keep watching the conversation maybe something more can be known. You never know what the Spirit is going to uncover.


A couple more verses that indicate Jesus shared in the same flash as we do.
Phil 2:7-8
Romans 8:3
Gal 4:4-5
John 1:14
Romans 1:3
1 Tim 3:16
2 John 1:7

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't want to move from the topic but I don't understand the context the same as you.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but let me clarify along the line that I think I do. When I say Jesus did not receive any inheritance from Adam, I meant he did not receive the sin nature passed down through the father because his father is the holy, sinless GOD. He was made a man in every way except that he received his inheritance from GOD, the father, not Joseph, the step-father. Why is it hard to think that we inherit everything a father has, but not his nature? In a patriarchal culture, inheritance doesn't pass through the woman.

Was I close to what you meant?

You are using the likeness of a "corrupted computer program" to paint the picture of an "inborn sin nature" which NECESSITATES actual sinning. This belief completely negates the concept of being personally responsible for one's sin because the "inborn sin nature NECESSITATED the sin."

In other words one cannot logically contend that sin is both a choice and a nature.

If a human being is born with a "corrupted constitution" which has been passed down from Adam and are thus UNABLE to make the virtuous choice then the sinfulness of man is likened to a disease and all men are victims of this condition.

On the other hand, if a human being is born in a state of ignorance but with an "upright constitution" (due to the light of conscience Joh 1:9) and thus has the FULL CAPABILITY to make the virtuous choice when the ability to reason is sufficient, and then CHOOSES to sin (being drawn away by lust), then such an action is a crime and man is not a victim but is instead a criminal.

I do not see the first view taught in Scripture, I do see the second alluded to all over the place. While it is true that Jesus is the great physician sent to heal those who are sick, the context is in regards to a spiritual sickness brought on via the misuse of the will in regards to CHOOSING to sin. We are indeed born into a physical state of sickness and corruption due to the curse.

I'm getting the impression that you think men are born pure and undefiled, and are only sinful because they choose to sin.

 

[ScottAU]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but let me clarify along the line that I think I do. When I say Jesus did not receive any inheritance from Adam, I meant he did not receive the sin nature passed down through the father because his father is the holy, sinless GOD. He was made a man in every way except that he received his inheritance from GOD, the father, not Joseph, the step-father. Why is it hard to think that we inherit everything a father has, but not his nature? In a patriarchal culture, inheritance doesn't pass through the woman.

Was I close to what you meant?



I'm getting the impression that you think men are born pure and undefiled, and are only sinful because they choose to sin.

That would be correct.

Sin is a moral issue as opposed to a physical issue.

Human beings are accountable before God for their rebellion because they freely CHOSE to rebel. A human being is not born already condemned as a rebel.




The idea that sin is some sort of "stuff" which is passed down in the male sperm is a myth which has its origin in pagan philosophy.

 

[mjrhealth]

Did I forget to mention He also over came death, "total seperation from God", amazing stuff.

In All His Love

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That would be correct.

I sense an 'emergent' spirit in your beliefs, i.e., that we are divine in nature, and GOD will emerge from within if we simply make the right moral choices. That is diametrically opposed to the cross and is pagan. If you haven't studied the emergent movement yet, my suggestion is to do so.