It is finished

[mjrhealth]

What was accomplished on the cross by one man is beyond the limits
of mans imagination. When I became a Christian I was taught that Jesus died for
me, and that was the end of that, yet so much more was accomplished, and what I
know is barely the beginning of it all.

2Co_5:21 For he
hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.

Mar 15:33 And when
the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth
hour.

Do you not comprehend what Happened, Jesus who is the Light of the world,
became sin for us, He became darkness, and when He did, the light was removed
from the world for three hours and even God Himself could not look upon His own
Son

Mar 15:34 And at
the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi,
Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?

Do you not think He is worthy of our praise, but yet there is so much
more.

In the beginning God walked with Adam, when Adam and Eve sinned, and where cast out of the garden, God could
no longer walk with them. The high priest once a year was allowed into the Holy
of Holies, with smoke to fill the room lest He look upon the face of God, and a
string tied to him lest he did and died. He did this once a year to ask
forgiveness of sin, all hidden behind a veil in the temple, yet when Jesus gave
up the Ghost, the veil was torn in two and everything changed.

Now can God not only walk amongst men as He did, but now all men have
access to God. No longer is the High Priest the go between, with us and God,
now we can go to Him directly.

Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the
priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not
without blood, which he offered for himself, and for
the errors of the people:

Heb 9:8 The Holy
Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made
manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy
places made with hands, which are the
figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of
God for us:

Heb 9:25 Nor yet
that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy
place every year with blood of others;

Heb 9:28 So Christ
was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And yet that is only a small part of what was accomplished.
Thank God for all His wisdom and Christ for His great Love for us.

In All His Love

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

What was accomplished on the cross by one man is beyond the limits
of mans imagination. When I became a Christian I was taught that Jesus died for
me, and that was the end of that, yet so much more was accomplished, and what I
know is barely the beginning of it all.

2Co_5:21 For he
hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be
made the righteousness of God in him.

Mar 15:33 And when
the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth
hour.

Do you not comprehend what Happened, Jesus who is the Light of the world,
became sin for us, He became darkness, and when He did, the light was removed
from the world for three hours and even God Himself could not look upon His own
Son

Mar 15:34 And at
the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi,
Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?

Do you not think He is worthy of our praise, but yet there is so much
more.

In the beginning God walked with Adam, when Adam and Eve sinned, and where cast out of the garden, God could
no longer walk with them. The high priest once a year was allowed into the Holy
of Holies, with smoke to fill the room lest He look upon the face of God, and a
string tied to him lest he did and died. He did this once a year to ask
forgiveness of sin, all hidden behind a veil in the temple, yet when Jesus gave
up the Ghost, the veil was torn in two and everything changed.

Now can God not only walk amongst men as He did, but now all men have
access to God. No longer is the High Priest the go between, with us and God,
now we can go to Him directly.

Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the
priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not
without blood, which he offered for himself, and for
the errors of the people:

Heb 9:8 The Holy
Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made
manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy
places made with hands, which are the
figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of
God for us:

Heb 9:25 Nor yet
that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy
place every year with blood of others;

Heb 9:28 So Christ
was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And yet that is only a small part of what was accomplished.
Thank God for all His wisdom and Christ for His great Love for us.

In All His Love

SHALOM

 

[ScottAU]

Jesus didn't literally become "sin" for sin is not a substance that one can become. Sin is a moral issue.

Jesus was a "sin offering" who "bore" our sins. This means he took the sins of the world upon Himself as the lamb without spot and offered Himself on our behalf. It is through His propitiatory offering that we can be cleansed of all our iniquity when we approach God through repentance and faith.

Under the Old Covenant the Israelites were "under the law." God was working through a physical nation in order to prepare the way for the Messiah. Those under the Old Covenant were taught to love God with all their heart, soul and mind and this was evidenced by abiding in the law of Moses by faith.

Jesus Christ came and fulfilled the law (the law was but a shadow of love) and then offered Himself in order that sinners could be cleansed. Under the New Covenant we come directly to Christ via abiding in Him and thus walk in the Spirit and it is through this that the letter of the law passes away in order that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us.


2Cor 5:21 is an interesting passage and I see a paralell in Rom 8:3. Jesus "made in the likeness of sinful flesh" and was therefore "made sin" in a figurative sense.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I also think Adam Clarke's view has a lot of validity also where in his commentary he points out that the word translated "sin" is actually "sin offering" and supports his contention by demonstrating how the same word is translated "sin offering" many times in the Greek Septuagint.

What can be established for sure though is that Jesus was not literally "made sin.'

There are two main reasons...

1. Sin is moral as opposed to a substance. Therefore one cannot be "made sin" or even "made virtue" for that matter.
2. If one could be "made sin" and Jesus actually was "made sin" then he would not have been "without spot" when He offered Himself to God.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I find the contention for "made sin" being literally true is philosophically based and has its origins in the writings of Reformers who heavily leant on authors who in turn heavily lent on the writings of Augustine of Hippo. It was Augustine who introduced the concept of the "dual nature" of man into Christian orthodoxy whereby it began to be taught that sin is more than a moral issue but actually bears a relation to virtue being inhibited by the material world taken to include the flesh.

Here is Adam Clarke's commentary on 2Cor 5:21

Verse 21. "For he hath made him to be sin for us"
- ton mh gnonta amartian, uper hmwn amartian epoihsen? He made him
who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word
amartia occurs here twice: in the first place
it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said,
He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as
to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of
nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to
be unimpeachable.

In the second place,
it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the
hafj chattaah and tafj chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies
both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the
Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by amartia in
ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a
sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not
sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own
method of translating the word in other places where it means the same
as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which
has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that
our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of
the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with
imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career
as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners,
because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were
imputed to him, and reckoned as his own. One of these writers
translates the passage thus: Deus Christum pro maximo peccatore habuit,
ut nos essemus maxime justi, God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners,
that we might be supremely righteous. Thus they have confounded sin
with the punishment due to sin. Christ suffered in our stead; died for
us; bore our sins, (the punishment due to them,) in his own body upon the tree, for the Lord laid upon him the iniquities of us all; that is, the punishment due to them; explained by making his soul-his life, an offering for sin; and healing us by his stripes.

But that it may be plainly seen that sin-offering, not sin, is
the meaning of the word in this verse, I shall set down the places from
the Septuagint where the word occurs; and where it answers to the
Hebrew words already quoted; and where our translators have rendered correctly what they render here incorrectly. In EXODUS, Exod. xxix. 14, xx16: LEVITICUS, Lev. iv. 3, 8, 20, 21, 24, 25, 29, 32-34; Lev. v. 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12; Lev. vi. 17, 25, 30; Lev. vii. 7, 37; Lev. viii. 2, 14; Lev. ix. 2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 15, 22; Lev. x. 16, 17, 19; Lev. xii. 6, 8; Leviticus xiv. 13, 19, 22, 31; Lev. xv. 15, 30; Lev. xvi. 3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 15, 25, 27; Lev. xxiii. 19: NUMBERS, Num. vi. 11, 14, 16; Num. vii. 16, 22, 28, 34, 40, 46, 52, 58, 70, 76, 82, 87; Numbers viii. 8, 12; Num. xv. 24, 25, 27; Num. xviii. 9; Num. xxviii. 15, 22; Num. xxix. 5, 11, 16, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 38.

Besides the above places, it occurs in the same signification,
and is properly translated in our version, in the following places:- 2
CHRONICLES, 2 Chron. xxix. 21, 23, 24: Ezra, Ezra vi. 17; Ezra viii. x25: NEHEMIAH, Neh. x. x23: Job, Job i. 5: EZEKIEL, Ezek. xliii. 19, 22, 25; Ezek. xliv. 27, 29; Ezekiel xlv. 17, 19, 22, 23, 25. In all, one hundred and eight places, which, in the course of my own reading in the Septuagint, I have marked.

"That we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - The righteousness of God signifies here the salvation of God, as comprehending justification through the blood of Christ, and sanctification through his Spirit or, as the mountains of God, the hail of God, the wind of God, mean exceeding high mountains, extraordinary hail, and most tempestuous wind; so, here, the righteousness of God may mean a thorough righteousness, complete justification, complete sanctification; such as none but God can give, such as the sinful nature and guilty conscience of man require, and such as is worthy of God
to impart. And all this righteousness, justification, and holiness, we
receive in, by, for, and through HIM, as the grand, sacrificial,
procuring, and meritorious cause of these, and every other blessing.
Some render the passage: We are justified through him; before God; or, We are justified, according to God's plan of justification, through him.

IN many respects, this is a most important and instructive chapter.

1. The terms house, building, tabernacle, and others connected with them, have already been explained from the Jewish
writings. But it has been thought by some that the apostle mentions
these as readily offering themselves to him from his own avocation,
that of a tentmaker; and it is supposed that he borrows these terms
from his own trade in order to illustrate his doctrine; This
supposition would be natural enough if we had not full evidence that these terms were used in the Jewish theology precisely in the sense in which the apostle uses them here. Therefore, it is more likely that he borrowed them from that theology, than from his own trade.

2. In the terms tabernacle, building of God, &c., he may refer also to the tabernacle in the wilderness, which was a building of God, and a house of God, and as God dwelt in that building,
so he will dwell in the souls of those who believe in, love, and obey
him. And this will be his transitory temple till mortality is swallowed
up of life, and we have a glorified body and soul to be his eternal residence.

3. The doctrines of the resurrection of the same body;
the witness of the Spirit; the immateriality of the soul; the fall
and miserable condition of all mankind; the death of Jesus, as an
atonement for the sins of the whole world; the necessity of obedience to the Divine will, and of the total change of the human heart, are all introduced here: and although only a few words are spoken on each, yet these are so plain and so forcible as to set those important doctrines in the most clear and striking point of view.

4. The chapter concludes with such a view of the mercy and goodness of God in the ministry
of reconciliation, as is no where else to be found. He has here set
forth the Divine mercy in all its heightenings; and who can take this
view of it without having his heart melted down with love and gratitude to God, who has called him to such a state of salvation.

5. It is exceedingly remarkable that, through the whole of this chapter, the apostle speaks of himself in the first person plural; and though he may intend other apostles, and the Christians in general,
yet it is very evident that he uses this form when only himself can be
meant, as in verses 12 and 13, as well as in several places of the
following chapter. This may be esteemed rather more curious than
important.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke2cor5.htm

 

[mjrhealth]

Have you ever seeing the picture of atlas with the world on his back, that is how Jesus showed it to me so many years ago. Except is wasnt the world it was the sins of the world.

In all His Love

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Yes Jesus came to restore all things to us that Adam gave over to the devil. Sin is our enemy and our Temptor is the devil, not the Word of God as many who are decieved believe. God's laws are good, but the devil tests us in the Word of God to see if we know and keep it. This is allowed by God because if we fall away from the Truth then the world becomes corrupt.
The error that decieved man makes is that they want to kill the Word of God, they say we are not under law. And true we are not under the Old law that had 613 ordinances added to them for transgressing the 10 written in Christ "The Stone". But God is a God of order and clearly we must see that God has foundational laws to keep us orderly and safe which we call the Word.

The Word under law became flesh and dwelt among us to give us a living example of how perfect man should be towards others and God. He also came to destroy the works of the devil by making a way (self sacrifice) to give us the Spirit to connect us once again to God and to help us tear down the old (1st) temple(our flesh body with it lusts) and begin to rebuild(born again) on a firm foundation on THE ROCK, The Stone that men rejected and still do meaning the 10 commandments of God that have been condensed to 2 which IF done Correctly, fulfill all 10 in Christ our new covenant. We must completely throw out all of the foul understanding that the world has taught us and begin anew as a little child who looks up to their Father for correction and guidance to grow up in the things of God which begins Inwardly........... and later produces fruit outwardly.
Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
KJV
We are not God, but we are the voice of God when we bring the Word to the ears of men and are obedient to His Word having the Spirit indwelling us. Just as the devil controls men by his corrupted spirit of iniquity and they are called children of the devil... So are we the children of God when His Spirit & Word indwells us and we do the things that the Spirit leads us to do. The Spirit of God will never tell us to oppose Christ for the Father, The Word and the Spirit are one. Those who have the Son, have the Father and the Spirit working through them to carry out the will of God on this earth. Yet the Father is the head of His Word/Christ and we are under Christ our head being the Word or Voice of God.
The bloodline of a child comes from the father's seed not the mother. So Mary was the mother of Jesus and gave birth to the natural flesh body of Jesus, but the Spirit/Blood of God was the Father of Jesus.
It had to be this way for the blood of corrupted man could not enter into Jesus or he too would have been of fallen man and would not have been able to keep the law to be our sin ransom. The Word is the Seed of God and is the Seed of the Woman/Israel who God said would defeat the devils works.

The Word of God is who was forsaken by God on the cross. Jesus is the Word, the Law of God who took on a flesh body fully human but with the Spirit of God. He had to be fully human to not only experience the frailty of us to make intersession for us, but he had to be fully man to be a legal sacrifice for us. We are being made into the image of Christ who is the image of God by the Spirit of God as well. When our flesh body is changed it will be of an incorruptable body, no longer led by it's lustful flesh as dogs/animals having self survival motives and actions. But we will be led of God's Spirit as children of God. While Jesus knew no sin, by corrupted man's judgment he was called(illegally) a sinner worthy of death so he became sin who knew no sin and the Word under the law was forsaken by God, meaning God could have sent a legion of angels to save him, but that was Jesus' mission, to die in our place as the Perfect holy sacrifice, the Lamb without blemish or fault in God's eyes. However God knew not fallen man's eyes who seen him as evil towards the things they loved to do, being of the darkness and Jesus as the Light.
The anti-Christ's spirits of men fell right into the plans of God to kill the old law with all the added ordinances that keep us in such bondage that no man could keep them because they did not have the helper, the Holy Spirit of God to teach them as we have now in the resurrected Word in Christ. We have no excuse not to be able to renew our minds for we have the internal living Word and Spirit dwelling in us, IF we have humbled ourselves to Christ and are willing to be led of the Spirit seeking each day for them to Operate within us surgically with fire and the knife/sWord to cut & burn away that carnal man with it lusts that are anti-Christ in nature and holds us down in the dust of the earth never finding peace, never entering into our promised land overflowing with milk and honey that God our Father wants to give to His Obedient children who love His Word and want to become one with His Word into the image of His firstborn Son.

 

[williemac]

The stone that the builders rejected is Jesus. I would have thought that this is obvious. How did they reject Him? Read Peter's sermon to the multitude on the day of Pentecost. They killed Jesus. Jesus is called the Rock in various passages. The ten commandments were written on not just one stone, but two stone tablets. If the passage was about that, then it would have said "the stones that the builders rejected" They did not reject the law. They were just unable to keep it, as the law was given to demonstrate. In fact, they needed to see that they could not keep it, as they actually thought it was possible. If they could, Jesus would not have needed to die for sin. He did not die for the rejection of the law. He died for the inability af man to keep it.
As well, the rest of that passage about the stone is that " it has now become the chief cornerstone" . Are we going to just ignore that part? Since when did the law or any part of it make a transition to "chief cornerstone"?

Jesus didn't literally become "sin" for sin is not a substance that one can become. Sin is a moral issue.

Jesus was a "sin offering" who "bore" our sins. This means he took the sins of the world upon Himself as the lamb without spot and offered Himself on our behalf. It is through His propitiatory offering that we can be cleansed of all our iniquity when we approach God through repentance and faith.

Under the Old Covenant the Israelites were "under the law." God was working through a physical nation in order to prepare the way for the Messiah. Those under the Old Covenant were taught to love God with all their heart, soul and mind and this was evidenced by abiding in the law of Moses by faith.

Jesus Christ came and fulfilled the law (the law was but a shadow of love) and then offered Himself in order that sinners could be cleansed. Under the New Covenant we come directly to Christ via abiding in Him and thus walk in the Spirit and it is through this that the letter of the law passes away in order that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us.


2Cor 5:21 is an interesting passage and I see a paralell in Rom 8:3. Jesus "made in the likeness of sinful flesh" and was therefore "made sin" in a figurative sense.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I also think Adam Clarke's view has a lot of validity also where in his commentary he points out that the word translated "sin" is actually "sin offering" and supports his contention by demonstrating how the same word is translated "sin offering" many times in the Greek Septuagint.

What can be established for sure though is that Jesus was not literally "made sin.'

There are two main reasons...

1. Sin is moral as opposed to a substance. Therefore one cannot be "made sin" or even "made virtue" for that matter.
2. If one could be "made sin" and Jesus actually was "made sin" then he would not have been "without spot" when He offered Himself to God.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I find the contention for "made sin" being literally true is philosophically based and has its origins in the writings of Reformers who heavily leant on authors who in turn heavily lent on the writings of Augustine of Hippo. It was Augustine who introduced the concept of the "dual nature" of man into Christian orthodoxy whereby it began to be taught that sin is more than a moral issue but actually bears a relation to virtue being inhibited by the material world taken to include the flesh.


Here is Adam Clarke's commentary on 2Cor 5:21

Verse 21. "For he hath made him to be sin for us"
- ton mh gnonta amartian, uper hmwn amartian epoihsen? He made him
who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word
amartia occurs here twice: in the first place
it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said,
He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as
to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of
nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to
be unimpeachable.

In the second place,
it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the
hafj chattaah and tafj chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies
both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the
Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by amartia in
ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a
sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not
sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own
method of translating the word in other places where it means the same
as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which
has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that
our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of
the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with
imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career
as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners,
because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were
imputed to him, and reckoned as his own. One of these writers
translates the passage thus: Deus Christum pro maximo peccatore habuit,
ut nos essemus maxime justi, God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners,
that we might be supremely righteous. Thus they have confounded sin
with the punishment due to sin. Christ suffered in our stead; died for
us; bore our sins, (the punishment due to them,) in his own body upon the tree, for the Lord laid upon him the iniquities of us all; that is, the punishment due to them; explained by making his soul-his life, an offering for sin; and healing us by his stripes.

But that it may be plainly seen that sin-offering, not sin, is
the meaning of the word in this verse, I shall set down the places from
the Septuagint where the word occurs; and where it answers to the
Hebrew words already quoted; and where our translators have rendered correctly what they render here incorrectly. In EXODUS, Exod. xxix. 14, xx16: LEVITICUS, Lev. iv. 3, 8, 20, 21, 24, 25, 29, 32-34; Lev. v. 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12; Lev. vi. 17, 25, 30; Lev. vii. 7, 37; Lev. viii. 2, 14; Lev. ix. 2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 15, 22; Lev. x. 16, 17, 19; Lev. xii. 6, 8; Leviticus xiv. 13, 19, 22, 31; Lev. xv. 15, 30; Lev. xvi. 3, 5, 6, 9, 11, 15, 25, 27; Lev. xxiii. 19: NUMBERS, Num. vi. 11, 14, 16; Num. vii. 16, 22, 28, 34, 40, 46, 52, 58, 70, 76, 82, 87; Numbers viii. 8, 12; Num. xv. 24, 25, 27; Num. xviii. 9; Num. xxviii. 15, 22; Num. xxix. 5, 11, 16, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 38.

Besides the above places, it occurs in the same signification,
and is properly translated in our version, in the following places:- 2
CHRONICLES, 2 Chron. xxix. 21, 23, 24: Ezra, Ezra vi. 17; Ezra viii. x25: NEHEMIAH, Neh. x. x23: Job, Job i. 5: EZEKIEL, Ezek. xliii. 19, 22, 25; Ezek. xliv. 27, 29; Ezekiel xlv. 17, 19, 22, 23, 25. In all, one hundred and eight places, which, in the course of my own reading in the Septuagint, I have marked.

"That we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - The righteousness of God signifies here the salvation of God, as comprehending justification through the blood of Christ, and sanctification through his Spirit or, as the mountains of God, the hail of God, the wind of God, mean exceeding high mountains, extraordinary hail, and most tempestuous wind; so, here, the righteousness of God may mean a thorough righteousness, complete justification, complete sanctification; such as none but God can give, such as the sinful nature and guilty conscience of man require, and such as is worthy of God
to impart. And all this righteousness, justification, and holiness, we
receive in, by, for, and through HIM, as the grand, sacrificial,
procuring, and meritorious cause of these, and every other blessing.
Some render the passage: We are justified through him; before God; or, We are justified, according to God's plan of justification, through him.

IN many respects, this is a most important and instructive chapter.

1. The terms house, building, tabernacle, and others connected with them, have already been explained from the Jewish
writings. But it has been thought by some that the apostle mentions
these as readily offering themselves to him from his own avocation,
that of a tentmaker; and it is supposed that he borrows these terms
from his own trade in order to illustrate his doctrine; This
supposition would be natural enough if we had not full evidence that these terms were used in the Jewish theology precisely in the sense in which the apostle uses them here. Therefore, it is more likely that he borrowed them from that theology, than from his own trade.

2. In the terms tabernacle, building of God, &c., he may refer also to the tabernacle in the wilderness, which was a building of God, and a house of God, and as God dwelt in that building,
so he will dwell in the souls of those who believe in, love, and obey
him. And this will be his transitory temple till mortality is swallowed
up of life, and we have a glorified body and soul to be his eternal residence.

3. The doctrines of the resurrection of the same body;
the witness of the Spirit; the immateriality of the soul; the fall
and miserable condition of all mankind; the death of Jesus, as an
atonement for the sins of the whole world; the necessity of obedience to the Divine will, and of the total change of the human heart, are all introduced here: and although only a few words are spoken on each, yet these are so plain and so forcible as to set those important doctrines in the most clear and striking point of view.

4. The chapter concludes with such a view of the mercy and goodness of God in the ministry
of reconciliation, as is no where else to be found. He has here set
forth the Divine mercy in all its heightenings; and who can take this
view of it without having his heart melted down with love and gratitude to God, who has called him to such a state of salvation.

5. It is exceedingly remarkable that, through the whole of this chapter, the apostle speaks of himself in the first person plural; and though he may intend other apostles, and the Christians in general,
yet it is very evident that he uses this form when only himself can be
meant, as in verses 12 and 13, as well as in several places of the
following chapter. This may be esteemed rather more curious than
important.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke2cor5.htm

Awesome post. The term "made to be" is not the same as "became". Not the same word. Thanks for the detail.

 

[Rex]

Have you ever seeing the picture of atlas with the world on his back, that is how Jesus showed it to me so many years ago. Except is wasnt the world it was the sins of the world.

In all His Love

When I was about 7 I remember looking at the cover or the back of the neighbors high school history book and drew a conclusion, it was a very detailed picture I was fascinated and spent quite a while studying it.

 

[Axehead]

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Man sinned in the body and his deliverance could only come in the body. Sin was condemned in the body and salvation was wrought through the body of Jesus. Our sin was imputed to Him, but He had no intrinsic sin of His own. He was the sinless Lamb of God which authorized only Him to condemn sin in the flesh.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Romans 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[ScottAU]

We have to be careful not to add to Scripture for only a little leaven may be a foundation for a mass of error.

The reason that Jesus was born of a virgin, according the the Bible, was this...

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

.Isa_7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


The idea of an inherited "sin nature" is a myth which grew out of Neo-Platonic/Gnostic philosophy around the 4th century. Tatian was an early writer who attributed the idea of sin indwelling the flesh, and then after him, more writers began to discuss this view (some alluded to a "vice of origin" like Tertullian). However, the idea of an inbred sin nature was not accepted into Christian orthodoxy until the Fourth Century under the prolific writing influence of Augustine of Hippo. Augustine was a gifted writer who had formerly been a Professor of Rhetoric in Milan and he was heavily influenced in his thinking by the Neo-Platonic/Gnostic concepts of dualism.

When Augustine converted to Catholicism he became a fierce critic of gnostic philosophy, however he was not able to clear his mind of his deep seated dualistic foundation. Hence he approached the Bible from a dualistic perspective and quickly found support in his interpretation of Rom 5:12 and Heb 7:9-10. He concluded that the sin of Adam and Eve corrupted the very nature of human beings and that this corruption was passed down in the male seed.

Therefore Jesus being born of a virgin was viewed as a necessity to bypass the male seed in order to produce one who would remain "sinless." This theory came to be known as "Seminal Identity" or the "Natural Head" theory.

The problem with this view is that the Bible simply does not teach it. In Genesis 3 where the results of the sin of Adam are declared, there is no mention of a corruption of the human constitution. Also "concupiscence," which Augustine viewed as evidence of the sin nature, clearly existed BEFORE the first sin (Gen 6:3).

Romans 5:12 does not state that any form of corruption of human nature is passed down from father to child. It merely alludes to the fact that it was by one man that sin came into the world and death by sin, then it teaches that this death passed to all men because all have sinned. In other words the wages of Adam's sin was death and the wages for everyone else who sinned was death also.

It is amazing how the human mind can unwittingly read an idea into a passage of the Bible due to a preconceived bias having been uncritically adopted.

It was the gnostics who held to a view that evil was the result of the human soul being trapped in the material plane. Thus the "light of the soul" was suppressed by matter, which led to the conclusion that the flesh itself necessitated evil. A darkened soul existed in ignorance trapped in the body and salvation was to be achieved through spiritual enlightenment apart from the actual deeds done in the flesh. It is interesting how in John's first epistle one can see how this view is being refuted for John clearly teaches that "manifest deeds" must match the true condition of the heart. John understood that the flesh, in and of itself, was not evil and nor did it suppress light.

The flesh only produces "temptation" due to the natural passions. Sin is a misuse of the will when those passions are indulged in at the expense of violating that which is known to be right. Hence sin in the Bible is transgression, of either a revealed law or commandment or of the light of conscience.

Thus sin is always a "crime" because it is rooted in the exercise of the will in making a "choice."

Dualist philosophy forces the redefinition of sin into being a "symptom" of an underlying "natural state."


Now with the above in mind, carefully consider what the dualist perspective does to meanings of things like "repentance," "faith," "grace" and "salvation."

It may well be worthwhile to ponder these things. Consider that Satan is a master theologian and ought not be underestimated.




God bless.











.

 

[Rex]

We have to be careful not to add to Scripture for only a little leaven may be a foundation for a mass of error.


The idea of an inherited "sin nature" is a myth which grew out of Neo-Platonic/Gnostic philosophy around the 4th century.

Maybe include the fact about what it was that was inherited.
I was death we inherited ScottAU the result of one mans sin.

Gen 2:15-17 .NIV
NKJV 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

1 Cor 15:21-22 .NIV
NKJV 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:17-19 .NIV
NKJV
17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more
those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 5 sin entered the world........Nevertheless
death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned

12 Therefore,
just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless
death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned
according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of
Him who was to come.

Sin is more than a moral issue it a matter of life or death

Jesus didn't literally become "sin" for sin is not a substance that one can become. Sin is a moral issue.

Think about this verse Acts 2:24


Isa 53:4-6
1 Peter 2:24-25

 

[ScottAU]

Thank you for your timely response Rex. It raises particular issues which I believe are prudent to look at and I welcome the discussion.


I would like to examine carefully "death" in the context of Romans 5:12.

KJV
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

NIV
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Amp
Rom 5:12Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.

Clearly the "death passing upon all men" , "death coming to all people" and "death spreading to all men" is connected to "for that all have sinned" , "because all sinned" and "because all men sinned."

Notice that this verse does not say that "death comes upon all men because Adam sinned." It does say that "sin came into the world by one man and that death is the result of sin" and then the verse connects "the death of all men" with "all sinning."


Now a very important point to consider is the "kind of death" that is at issue here.

God stated this...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God clearly told Adam that he would die the "very day" that he would eat of this tree. Yet Adam lived 930 years so he did not physically die on the day he partook of the forbidden fruit.

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Why did Adam physically die?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Adam was denied access to the tree of life which would have sustained his physical body and thus he would eventually physically die. Likewise we physically die due to not having access to the tree of life to sustain our flesh bodies. Flesh is mortal (2Cor 4:11).

The death that Adam experienced "in the day" that he partook of the forbidden fruit was a spiritual death, it was a spiritual death to God. The Bible says this...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul described it thus...

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Notice that Paul is describing how sin kills through law and thus kills. Paul claimed that sin killed him in this manner yet Paul was physically alive when he wrote this. Paul was not speaking of physical death but of spiritual death which comes as a result of sinning.

Notice this passage...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam's transgression was one of violation of a direct commandment of God. Those who "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" sinned against their conscience.

James describes to us how sin actually works...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Which is what happened to Eve in the garden...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve was tempted, when she was drawn away of her own lust, and enticed, then when her lust had conceived, it brought forth sin, and the sin when it was finished brought forth death. The wages of sin is death.

When Jesus taught the parable of the Prodigal Son he described the son as having "been death" yet not being "alive again." "Spiritual death" as opposed to "physical death."

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

To make this even clearer let's look again at Romans 7...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

The only way sin can kill is through "knowledge of good and evil." The sin that kills is ALWAYS rooted in an act of the free exercise of the will as an ACT OF TRANSGRESSION. Here is how the New Testament defines sin...

Sin is transgression.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is a violation of a KNOWN moral standard.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Sin is a violation of the conscience.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Which is why John makes the distinction between "sinning unto death" and "not sinning unto death."

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Paul makes the same distinction in Romans when he connects "sin unto death" to "disobedience" by contrasting it to "obedience unto righteousness."

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



Here is another passage which we need to look at...

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The death being spoken of here is "physical death" and not "spiritual death."



Christian's have already been raised up and made alive in Christ. Pay particular attention to the word translated into english as "Quickened" in the following passage.

Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Quickened - G4806 - suzōopoieō
From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): - quicken together with.

G4862 - sun
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.

G2227 - zōopoieō
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

When Jesus referred to the Prodigal Son as being "alive again" it was a reference to a repentant sinner "no longer being spiritually dead."

Here is another relevant New Testament verse...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Refreshing - G403 - anapsuxis
From G404; properly a recovery of breath, that is, (figuratively) revival: - revival.



Therefore what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 is in the context of this...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is the hope of the saints. Yet in the present we are to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin and alive to God through Jesus Christ (Rom 6:11) having been raised up with Christ, by the power of God (Col 2:11-14), unto newness of life (2Cor 5:17, Rom 6:4). We have the hope of being raised up incorruptible unto eternal life if we faint not (Gal 6:7-9).


When I alluded to "sin being a moral issue" I was not negating it being an issue of life and death. I was simply trying to explain the "nature of sin" and "how it works" and "what sin actually is."

While we are to do this...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Doing that CANNOT undo the death already wrought by sin. This is why being cleansed by the blood of Christ is key. Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin because there can be no purging of the conscience of past transgressions (Heb 9:22).

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It is through approaching God in the new and living way whereby we are cleansed that we can then do what we are commanded to do in Rom 6:12-13 which is to simply "serve the living God."

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Rex]

Thank you for your timely response Rex. It raises particular issues which I believe are prudent to look at and I welcome the discussion.


I would like to examine carefully "death" in the context of Romans 5:12.

KJV
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

NIV
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Amp
Rom 5:12Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.

Clearly the "death passing upon all men" , "death coming to all people" and "death spreading to all men" is connected to "for that all have sinned" , "because all sinned" and "because all men sinned."

Notice that this verse does not say that "death comes upon all men because Adam sinned." It does say that "sin came into the world by one man and that death is the result of sin" and then the verse connects "the death of all men" with "all sinning."

So men from Adam to Mosses never knowing the law sinned? Did God expect these men to know the law before God gave it to Mosses?
Yet Paul says, 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

What he is saying is there was no law to transgress Yet all men died, because of Adams sin. We inherited death, If not then Adam stands alone in death and those after him could not have transgressed the single law of 'You shall not eat" from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There was no other law until Mosses.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Then our personal sin as the result of the law, after Mosses

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.

So i disagree Scott

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 5:12 does not state that any form of corruption of human nature is passed down from father to child. It merely alludes to the fact that it was by one man that sin came into the world and death by sin, then it teaches that this death passed to all men because all have sinned. In other words the wages of Adam's sin was death and the wages for everyone else who sinned was death also.

Romans may not, but the first commandment certainly does suggest that descendants do incur a forensic liability through the father:

I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:2-6

Sin does corrupt the flesh because the flesh is more than just the body; it is also the mind.

 

[ScottAU]

So men from Adam to Mosses never knowing the law sinned? Did God expect these men to know the law before God gave it to Mosses?
Yet Paul says, 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

What he is saying is there was no law to transgress Yet all men died, because of Adams sin. We inherited death, If not then Adam stands alone in death and those after him could not have transgressed the single law of 'You shall not eat" from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There was no other law until Mosses.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Then our personal sin as the result of the law, after Mosses

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.

So i disagree Scott

Paul writes...
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Before the Mosaic Law sin was possible because all men have been given the light of conscience (Joh 1:9). Thus while one may not be in violation of a "direct commandment" one can still violate the "light of conscience."

It is the soul that sins that dies. The descendants of Adam do not bear the iniquity of Adam. All human beings are responsible for their own personal sin.

Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

When Paul writes that...

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Wouldn't it logically be in the context of the "example of Adam" by which "his offense" wrought "judgment upon all to condemnation"? In other words "Adam led the way of sinning unto death" and his descendants all willingly followed (for all have sinned).

If that is not the context then "the soul that is born is ALREADY DEAD" and "the son DOES BEAR the iniquity of the father."

It think it is also important to keep in mind that we are all born under the curse into a degenerating world without understanding in regards to the true consequences of sin. Thus the true danger of "choosing to sin" goes unrecognised.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What he is saying is there was no law to transgress Yet all men died, because of Adams sin. We inherited death, ...

This is an excellent point. Adam died the moment he knew evil. Subsequently, it would be impossible for one of his descendents to not have a defiled conscience. And a defiled conscience ends in death.

If that is not the context then "the soul that is born is ALREADY DEAD" and "the son DOES BEAR the iniquity of the father."

The soul that is born IS already dead because its conscience is already defiled through the sins of its father. Nevertheless, that soul is not responsible for the father's sins. But it is born with a corrupted mind that will sin, for which that soul will be responsible.

 

[ScottAU]

Romans may not, but the first commandment certainly does suggest that descendants do incur a forensic liability through the father:

I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:2-6

Sin does corrupt the flesh because the flesh is more than just the body; it is also the mind.

Yet is the "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth (generation)" really in a context that contradicts this...

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

I don't believe so.

Rather I think the context is this...

Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,
...
Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
Jer 32:34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Jer 32:36 And now therefore thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence;

The Bible harmonises around "physical judgment" effecting succeeding generations as opposed to the literal guilt and condemnation being imputed. Thus Exo 20:5, Exo 34:7, Num 14:18, Deu 5:9 and Jer 32:18 do not contradict Ezekial chapter 18.

We all bear the iniquity of Adam in the sense of being born under the curse. Yet we do not bear the iniquity of Adam in the sense of being born already condemned and dead with a corrupted human nature.

Physical death is inherited from Adam. Spiritual death it a result of the free exercise of our will and thus we are personally held responsible for our rebellion to God, not Adam.

This is an excellent point. Adam died the moment he knew evil. Subsequently, it would be impossible for one of his descendents to not have a defiled conscience. And a defiled conscience ends in death.



The soul that is born IS already dead because its conscience is already defiled through the sins of its father. Nevertheless, that soul is not responsible for the father's sins. But it is born with a corrupted mind that will sin, for which that soul will be responsible.

If this was the case then why would James teach that "death" is the result of "yielding to temptation" ?????

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If we are already "born dead" and "born condemned" then what James is teaching here as applying to "every man" does not make sense. Instead he ought to teach that spiritual death is the result of Adam's sin and that it is this "death state" that "brings forth sin."


Also why would Paul write this if what you say is true????

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Instead, Paul ought to teach that he was "born slain" and therefore "knowing sin by the commandment" had nothing to do with his dead state.


The Bible simply does not harmonise around the concept of being born already dead in sin and thus already condemned. That concept is a redefining of the nature of man which in turn has a great impact upon the meanings of repentance, sin, faith, grace and salvation.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We all bear the iniquity of Adam in the sense of being born under the curse. Yet we do not bear the iniquity of Adam in the sense of being born already condemned and dead with a corrupted human nature.

Physical death is inherited from Adam. Spiritual death it a result of the free exercise of our will and thus we are personally held responsible for our rebellion to God, not Adam.

I disagree with your first paragraph, but think the second is excellent.

Regarding the first, it would be impossible for a corrupted man (Adam) to produce perfect offspring. Therefore, if imperfect, the conscience knows and incurs guilt, which is death.

 

[Rex]

Judgement came to all men, that indicates more than a bodily death, its hard to prove threw scripture but HRFTD does a very good job of trying to put into words the full implication.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men,

 

[ScottAU]

I disagree with your first paragraph, but think the second is excellent.

Regarding the first, it would be impossible for a corrupted man (Adam) to produce perfect offspring. Therefore, if imperfect, the conscience knows and incurs guilt, which is death.

I am not quite sure what you mean by "perfect offspring." If you could elaborate it would be great so as I can understand your assertion better.

I cannot perceive how a conscience could incur guilt without having the capacity to reason and thus actually CHOOSE to do wrong.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

[Rex]

The relationship was lost and will not be restored until we leave our flesh and put on immortality, there is certainly a connection between the flesh and soul but I don't know exactly where the line of division may be found. Or how deeply one effects the other.