It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

[bbyrd009]

Good point. Very convicting. This will be avoided the same as my post. It is the very nature of Modernist Protestants to rebel against their founding reformers, and their excuses don't hold water. What we are up against is Modernism, the synthesis of all heresies.

more likely you're up against people who actually read the Bible, and haven't been indoctrinated by Paul's wolves lol.

 

[Mungo]

this is after all at least posing as a Christian site, and not a Papist one,

Are you suggesting that Catholics, or 'Papists', as you insultingly call us are not Christians?

 

[bbyrd009]

With All Due Respect? Why don't you show some?

Or is Zero the amount of respect you think Catholics are due?

c'mon Mungo, you earn respect, try addressing the issues for a change, instead of pushing your pagan agenda. Mary had sex, and it is plainly stated in the Book, but if God Himself came down and assured you guys of this, you would not hear it ok. I could care less if you are into goddess worship, personally. Pretending it is Scriptural is another thing entirely.

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you suggesting that Catholics, or 'Papists', as you insultingly call us are not Christians?

um papist is just shorter, i didn't even realize it was an insult. Fwiw i love the current pope ok. And i do not identify as Christian, either, so you can be a Christian if you like, as soon as you start confessing your sins in the manner that Christ commanded, i guess. "Christian" is commonly accepted as "Protestant," and there is obvious some term needed to differentiate between Christian and RCC, it seems to me.

but please gimme a break, ok, you still think Easter is in Scripture lol

 

[Mungo]

c'mon Mungo, you earn respect, try addressing the issues for a change, instead of pushing your pagan agenda. Mary had sex, and it is plainly stated in the Book, but if God Himself came down and assured you guys of this, you would not hear it ok. I could care less if you are into goddess worship, personally. Pretending it is Scriptural is another thing entirely.

It is not plainly stated in the Bible. If it was you could quote chapter and verse. But you give none.

You accuse Catholics of having a pagan agenda, of being Papists, and Mary worship, and then you think you deserve some respect?

 

[bbyrd009]

It is not plainly stated in the Bible. If it was you could quote chapter and verse. But you give none.

Matt 1:25 but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

You accuse Catholics of having a pagan agenda, of being Papists, and Mary worship, and then you think you deserve some respect?

goodbye, poseur. Henry VIII was a whack job, but he got one thing right imo

 

[Mungo]

but please gimme a break, ok, you still think Easter is in Scripture lol

For those reading this, bbyd009 challenged me to find Easter in the Bible. So I did:
"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." (Acts 4:5 - KJV)

He's such a bad loser he can't let go of it. Don't know why - he's the one that lost!

 

[Mungo]

Matt 1:25 but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

Doesn't say she had sex. It just says she did not have sex between two points in time.

 

[Mungo]

bbyrd009,
You said:
I recognize that you guys are necessarily dependent upon ad hominem attacks

And then you say this:

goodbye, poseur.

Hypocrite. And that's just a statement of fact. The evidence is above

 

[bbyrd009]

already stipulated lol, but ty. guess it takes one to know one huh

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have read many writings of Church fathers. I have read some of Ignatius'. I am unaware if he wrote a rebuttal or an endorsement of Hegiseppus. If you have proof that he learned from Polycarp, by all means please present it. I am schooled in the early churh writers but by all means haven't read everything.

In any sense, al you have done is shown that I was right in saying it was 3rd generation knowledge. Had you said And proved that Hegiseppus learned from John... I would take a closer look. But can you even prove he talked to Polycarp? I don't know... I am asking!

I will check into this whole "aldephie" thing... But I am not confident the will be anything to find.

I am indeed absolutely convinced that Mat 1:25 means they had sexual relations. The dry dreading suggests such and the verses that say Jesus had brothers and sisters support it. The abnormality is to suggedt otherwise.

When the word "until" is used (or "till") it talks about something that happened prior to a change in circumstances. Your Moses' burial place is a poor example. It only means up to the point (amd even today) we don't know.

David and Michael didn't have children. But it was possible for them to have children. UNTIL a change. Michael died. It was no lomger possible. I mean... Give me a break... Its not hard to comprehend!


Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God until his enemies are made his footstool. Its WAY beyond the scope of this convesation to talk about this. The simple meaning is that once his enemies are his footstool, he"s gonna do something!

The "minor" teaching not being suoported by scripture supporting it? You are dismissing the very verses we are discussing. Or at least you are dismissing the most likely meaning they suggested.

I have more to say... But I am babysitting tonight.... Gotta go.

And if you think Matt. 1:25 is rock-solid evidence that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations - you are simply showing that you don't understand the text. You are applying your 21st century English logic to a culture that spoke Aramaic and Greek 2000 years ago.

The word "Until" doesn't always infer that there is a consequence afterward, as I have shown.
And, althoughyou rationalized the first 2 examples - you were completely unable to wiggle out of Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44 and Acts 2:34-35 where this word is used.
Finally - since you appear to have dodged my questions - I will ask you AGAIN:

a) Why are there NO testimonies from the Early Church Fathers about these "other" children of Mary??
b ) Why did they UNANIMOUSLY agree that she was a perpetual virgin??
c) What did they have to gain from "lying" about this??
d) Since are FAR more things written about the life of Jesus in the Early Church than in the New Testament - WHY no mention of "siblings"??

 

[BreadOfLife]

bbyrd009,
You said:
I recognize that you guys are necessarily dependent upon ad hominem attacks

See posts #47 & #71 which obliterate your argument about Matt. 1:25.
No "ad hominems" - just the facts.

 

[mjrhealth]

What God do YOU serve?
I asked you before:
"Do you then see God as an abuser of women? Someone who took a wife from her husband for his own purposes and then handed her back after he had finished with her?"

It seems that you do, because now you state that God impregnated Mary and then when he was done with her just handed her back to Joseph to impregnate in his turn.

Do you not realise the marital significance of the Holy Spirit coming upon her and overshadowing her? Mary became the spouse of the Holy Spirit.. Indeed who whole episode of Gabriel's appearances to Mary (Lk :26-35) and Joseph (Mt 18:21) only makes coherent sense in the following scenario:
Mary is a virgin who has consecrated her life to God as a virgin.
For a reason we do not know she agrees to marry Joseph but remain faithful to her vow - to which Joseph agrees. But this is all part of God's plan. Joseph will provide a home and protection for Mary and God's Son.
They complete the first stage of marriage (kiddushin) and Mary is legally Joseph's wife.
The is no intention to complete the second stage of marriage and enter into marital relations.
Then God intervenes and she consents to his plan, conceives and bears God's Son.
As she is has now entered fully into a marital relationship with God she is now forbidden to Joseph. But that was the plan anyway.

I think the problem is that you, and many modern protestants, come to this you your own, sex oriented, cultural assumptions and pre-bias against teachings about Mary (and hatred of the Catholic Church).

What Vow

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

All she did was agree with God,

as for Joseph and quoted before

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Only says he didnt sleep with her before not after.

I asked you before:
"Do you then see God as an abuser of women? Someone who took a wife from her husband for his own purposes and then handed her back after he had finished with her?"

Oh you do get in on it dont you.

What did God do. He sent His spiritr created life in a women, God didnt steal Josephs wife, for one they where only bethroed at the time and 2. teh reason she became pregnant was because she ":believed" His word, something so few do, and I speak not of the bible. And is that what you think, God raped her and than gave her to Joseph, Joseph was well within His rights to toss her aside, But He too agreed with God. As i said beofre. all Christians that come to Christ are given the Holy Spirit. teh "seed" of God that Births Life in us, We do not feel Raped". Do you???

As for "easter" that is an incorrect word as it was passover and what has passover got to do with easter??

PS dont belong to mens religions none of them are from God, why do you hate people who choose to follow Christ?? do you have a problem with Him,
I am teh way an the truth and the life...where is your truth...??

Catholic Church).

No just catholism, but how does one love something that opposes God in all it does, Could go on but it always ends up this way, gloryfying teh "church" and stealing Gods thunder.

Again all this topic has nothing to do with anything simply trying to justifys ones churches doctrines, Doenst change anything,, does it???

 

[BreadOfLife]

PS dont belong to mens religions none of them are from God, why do you hate people who choose to follow Christ?? do you have a problem with Him,
I am teh way an the truth and the life...where is your truth...??

No just catholism, but how does one love something that opposes God in all it does, Could go on but it always ends up this way, gloryfying teh "church" and stealing Gods thunder.

Ummmmm, THIS coming from a person who belongs to the cult of "aggressivechristianity.net" which was founded in 1980.
That's almost 2000 years AFTER Jesus built his Church . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

Ummmmm, THIS coming from a person who belongs to the cult of "aggressivechristianity.net" which was founded in 1980.
That's almost 2000 years AFTER Jesus built his Church . . .

Hmm anger management course needed. Jesus said teh truth will set you free. maybe you need to start looking for it.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hmm anger management course needed. Jesus said teh truth will set you free. maybe you need to start looking for it.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Then why are you looking for His truth in a man made organization established a mere 37 years ago, hmmm?

 

[mjrhealth]

Then why are you looking for His truth in a man made organization established a mere 37 years ago, hmmm?

Christ has being around since He was born, a little longer than your church I think, and God well who knows. All this protestant hate, even to one who isnt...

 

[FHII]

And if you think Matt. 1:25 is rock-solid evidence that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations - you are simply showing that you don't understand the text. You are applying your 21st century English logic to a culture that spoke Aramaic and Greek 2000 years ago.

The word "Until" doesn't always infer that there is a consequence afterward, as I have shown.
And, althoughyou rationalized the first 2 examples - you were completely unable to wiggle out of Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44 and Acts 2:34-35 where this word is used.
Finally - since you appear to have dodged my questions - I will ask you AGAIN:

a) Why are there NO testimonies from the Early Church Fathers about these "other" children of Mary??
b ) Why did they UNANIMOUSLY agree that she was a perpetual virgin??
c) What did they have to gain from "lying" about this??
d) Since are FAR more things written about the life of Jesus in the Early Church than in the New Testament - WHY no mention of "siblings"??

Claiming that the scripture (Mat 1:25) doesn't really mean what it says due to language and cultural barriers is not an arguement I am going to accept. We had scholars long ago translate the scriptures. I believe they were inspired by God and got it correct. Given that the Bible lists Jesus's brothers and sisters I stand by this verse meaning that after Jesus's birth Mary had other children.

You listed Psa 110:1 and I believe 3 other verses that quoted that verse. I did address that verse. I noted that going through the meaning of that is beyond the scope of this conversation and potentially would derail the conversation. Again, review what I said and you will see once his enemies are made his footstool something will happen.

Take Peter's sermon in Acts 2. It says, "... For David is not ascended into heaven, but he saith the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand..."

I think by now David has entered heaven or paradise by now... Jesus conquered death and something happened. Certainly, as I suggested there was a change when Jesus conquered death

Maybe thats not it and it has to do with Armageddon and Jesus bringing his army... But I seriously doubt things are going or have remained the same after the enemies are under him.

As for your questions, don't take this personally because its not meant to be taken personally: i will no longer answer loaded questions or questions meant for entrapment. If you have a statement to make, say it. If you actually have a question because you don't know somethin, ask it in sincerity.

As much as I appreciate the Socratic method of debates, it must br used properly. So, if you want me to comment on a thought you have, by all means try again.

But I am no longer playing that game.

 

[Mungo]

Claiming that the scripture (Mat 1:25) doesn't really mean what it says due to language and cultural barriers is not an arguement I am going to accept. We had scholars long ago translate the scriptures. I believe they were inspired by God and got it correct. Given that the Bible lists Jesus's brothers and sisters I stand by this verse meaning that after Jesus's birth Mary had other children.

The problem is that you read things into the words that are not there due to your cultural preconceptions.

To claim that Matthew 1:25 indicates that Mary had sexual relations with Joseph after Jesus was born is to infer what has yet to be proved since it it does not state that she had sexual relations after Jesus was born.

According to Greek speaking Orthodox the Greek word heos, translated as until (or til, or just to) has NO implication beyond the heos point.
It is the same in English. Until is just a time marker.

Concise Oxford English Dictionary defines Until as:
until
 preposition & conjunction up to (the point in time or the event mentioned).

The Collins Concise Dictionary says a little more:
until
1. up to (a time}
2. (used with a negative) before (a time of event)

Until is used to mark a period of time and says nothing about what happens outside that period of time.

It does not mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.
Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?

Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20). Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age?

Here are some more
but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO

except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come. (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO

Supposing I said:
He ran until he reached the large oak tree in the middle of the park.
Does that mean he stopped running when he got to the oak tree?

It could continue: He ran round the oak tree and ran back to me.
He didn’t stop running. The until point was significant, not because he stopped running but because it was when he started running back to me.

So you cannot prove that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations after Jesus was born from Mt 1:25.

You assume she did because that is what that normally happens in a marriage. But the marriage of Mary and Joseph was not a normal marriage. It was unique in all history. God chose Mary to be the mother of his incarnate son. That made her unique in all history.

 

[Mungo]

What Vow

Do you bother to actually read posts?

This has already been covered - see posts #23, #29, #50