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It's only believed in and accepted by non-Catholics.twinc said:so why is it believed and accepted that Mary had children other than Jesus - twinc
Because that is the testimony of Scripture.twinc said:so why is it believed and accepted that Mary had children other than Jesus - twinc
It's only the "testimony of Scripture" to the ignorant.Stranger said:Because that is the testimony of Scripture.
What you should be asking is , 'what is the purpose of Mary being a perpetual virgin?', as taught by the Roman church.
Stranger
Mary's perpetual virginity bears witness to the uniqueness and Christ and to the divinity of Christ.Stranger said:BreadOfLife
Again, stats are just another way of lying.
Again, why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?
Stranger
Does nothing of teh sort, bible says He was born of a virgin, and He was, after that it doesnt matter, teh task set before her was complete, she did as she was asked. If she slept with ten other men after that it would not matter teh promise is still fulfilled. Christ is no longer in the womb after He is born, is he??Mary's perpetual virginity bears witness to the uniqueness and Christ and to the divinity of Christ.
Denying the perpetual virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.
So you dismiss 344 Bible verses and say stats are another way of lying? What a dishonest cop out!Stranger said:BreadOfLife
Again, stats are just another way of lying.
Again, why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?
Stranger
Do you then see God as an abuser of women? Someone who took a wife from her husband for his own purposes and then handed her back after he had finished with her?mjrhealth said:Does nothing of teh sort, bible says He was born of a virgin, and He was, after that it doesnt matter, teh task set before her was complete, she did as she was asked. If she slept with ten other men after that it would not matter teh promise is still fulfilled. Christ is no longer in the womb after He is born, is he??
The virgin birth bears witness, and was necessary for The Son of God to accomplish salvation for man. There is no need for a 'perpetual virginity'. It serves no purpose, other than to give Mary a place God never intended.Mungo said:Mary's perpetual virginity bears witness to the uniqueness and Christ and to the divinity of Christ.
Denying the perpetual virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.
It means they were wrong concerning Mary's perpetual virginity. Remember they were part of the Roman Church also for years. Thus they would be affected by it. They were drawing the line in some areas of doctrine, but not in all.Mungo said:The founders of the Reformation believed that Mary was ever-virgin
Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)
"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)
"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)
John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)
Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)
Does that mean that the founders of the Reformation were heretics promoting false doctrines?
Was Protestantism founded by heretics?
You asked why it was important that Mary was a perpetual virgin but when given an answer you fail to engage with it. Instead you just retreat into denial.Stranger said:The virgin birth bears witness, and was necessary for The Son of God to accomplish salvation for man. There is no need for a 'perpetual virginity'.
How can you be so sure of what God intended?Stranger said:It serves no purpose, other than to give Mary a place God never intended.
If they were wrong about that, how many other things were they wrong about?Stranger said:It means they were wrong concerning Mary's perpetual virginity.
That's a non answer - a cop out!Stranger said:Remember they were part of the Roman Church also for years. Thus they would be affected by it. They were drawing the line in some areas of doctrine, but not in all.
The Reformers were correct in dividing where they did. In other areas they didn't go far enough. It would be left to others to do so.
Translation:Stranger said:BreadOfLife
Again, stats are just another way of lying.
Again, why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?
Stranger
Regardless of my standpoint, this made me chuckle!!! LOLBreadOfLife said:Translation:
"That is way too much evidence and I'm not even going to try to refute it."
Nothing but a gigantic cop-out.
Yes I know what you answered and I showed you that I disagree with your answer. Mary's perpetual virginity is not needed to show any uniqueness to Christ and neither does it do anything for His Divinity. It is not necessary. The virgin birth was necessary. Perpetual virginity is not.Mungo said:You asked why it was important that Mary was a perpetual virgin but when given an answer you fail to engage with it. Instead you just retreat into denial.
How can you be so sure of what God intended?
Do you claim to know the mind of God?
Well, they could be wrong about other things. Which they were. But we have the Scripture to be our judge.Mungo said:If they were wrong about that, how many other things were they wrong about?
That's a non answer - a cop out!
These founding reformers seemed quite able to challenge the Catholic Church on many other issues.
But you are right on one point - it would be left to others to go further and further from the truth.
I didn't suggest it was necessary.Stranger said:Yes I know what you answered and I showed you that I disagree with your answer. Mary's perpetual virginity is not needed to show any uniqueness to Christ and neither does it do anything for His Divinity. It is not necessary. The virgin birth was necessary. Perpetual virginity is not.
You can know your personal (and presumable fallible) interpretation of what God has revealed to us.Stranger said:I can be sure because of what is written in the Scripture.
I can know the things revealed to us. I can know the mind of God to the extent that I understand the Revelation He has given.
Stranger
God never said Mary was to be a perpetual virgin.BreadOfLife said:Translation:
"That is way too much evidence and I'm not even going to try to refute it."
Nothing but a gigantic cop-out.
As to your question - about WHY it's "important" that Mary be a perpetual Virgin - it's because we believe in God.
His Word shows us through prophecy, type and fulfillment that she was to remain a virgin If God lied about that - then ALL of Scripture is a lie.