Jacob and Esau

[thelord's_pearl]

I think it was these 2 characters I read in the bible in the past. Jacob got the birthright deceitfully and became great. but did he get any punishment for being deceitful though he became great? Thanks all

 

[justbyfaith]

I think it was these 2 characters I read in the bible in the past. Jacob got the birthright deceitfully and became great. but did he get any punishment for being deceitful thought he became great? Thanks all

He reaped what he sowed; in that his uncle Laban also later deceived him concerning the fact that he gave him Leah before Rachel when Rachel was promised. And in that he changed his wages ten times.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

He reaped what he sowed; in that his uncle Laban also later deceived him concerning the fact that he gave him Leah before Rachel when Rachel was promised. And in that he changed his wages ten times.

Oh ok, yeah those parts weren't clear to me that I got from it. He also reaped because I think Esau wanted to kill him so it instilled fear in him

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think it was these 2 characters I read in the bible in the past. Jacob got the birthright deceitfully and became great. but did he get any punishment for being deceitful thought he became great? Thanks all

He became great by divine predestination. God's will cannot be thwarted. He always has a plan, even though human freedom is involved. God chooses to direct His path through people who are faithful.

So, through Abraham God developed a plan using people who would inherit Abraham's own characteristics. Though Jacob was human and free to err, he ultimately showed the characteristics he inherited from his father Abraham.

Jacob suffered the loss of his homeland for awhile due to his unethical behavior and treatment of his equally pathetic brother, Esau. And he himself was deceived by his father-in-law Laban, who was able to pull double amount of pay for the rights to his daughter Rachel.

But it is the ultimate achievement of faith in God and in His righteousness that justifies a man, and Jacob was rewarded for that, as well, by producing the nation promised to Abraham. That Jacob had a love for what is godly is shown in his love for his son Joseph, who persevered in righteousness in pagan Egypt. Jacob suffered the loss of his son Joseph for years, but finally was rewarded by receiving him back much later.

If we've done wrong, we'll suffer for it. But what counts is our final decision, and our willingness to persevere in it.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello,

It seems that Isaac preferred Esau over Jacob, Who God had identified in his mother's womb as the one through whom all of the earth would be blessed, because he loved to eat the wild game that Esau hunted and prepared for his father to eat.

If we read Genesis 25:19-34, we can read about the interactions between the two twins.

As for Isaac deceiving Esau of his birth right, that is a questionable conclusion on our part, because Esau gave up his birthright because he believed he was about to die for something he had done in the field. Now Esau is recorded as being a great hunter in the field just like Nimrod was a Great hunter as well and we are not told in the Genesis account why Esau believed that he was about to die when he had entered the tent, Jacob was in, and demanded that he be feed some of Jacob stew. In the Book of Jasher, it is suggested that Esau had killed Nimrod and taken the skins that God had clothed Adam with after the fall.

Now when Isaac was a little older than 100 years of age, he believed that he was about to die, and he decided that he needed to bless Esau, his son, contrary to what God had said to his wife Rebekah, i.e. that the old twin would serve the younger twin, and so he sent Esau out into the field to hunt for some wild games for him to eat before he would bless Esau.

Now, Rebekah had heard of Isaac's plan to bless Esau and so she, remembering God's words to her concerning who should have the blessing, orchestrated Jacob to go into his father Isaac, to receive his father's blessing instead of Esau.

Now it is Esau who accused Jacob of stealing his birthright from him whereas, it was Esau who willingly gave away his birthright many years prior because he believed he was about to die for something he had just done in the field while hunting.

After Isaac had blessed Jacob instead of him, Esau began to plot his revenge and began to plan to murder Jacob. On learning of this Rebekah again orchestrated that Isaac send Jacob away to Haran to find a wife for himself from among Rebekah's relatives.

So it was that Jacob left his father's household when he was a little older than 40 years of age and travelled up to Laban's household to get himself a wife. It was not until after 40 years had passed after the birth of 11 sons and one daughter, that God told Jacob to return to his father's household. On this journey back to Isaac, he reconciled himself with Esau, before he had crossed the Joran River to enter once more the Land of Canaan. Benjamin, his last son was born, and his mother, Jacob's favourite wife, died in childbirth, before he had come to Bethel where his father was living at that time. Subsequently, Esau moved away from Isaac and settled in the land around Mt. Seir because the country around Bethel could not sustain the flocks of Jacob and Esau.

It is my view that we have all not spent enough time reflecting on the story of Jacob to glean out the truth of the matters found in the Book of Genesis concerning the story of Jacob.

Shalom

 

[Mark51]

QUOTE="thelord's_pearl, post: 1023689, member: 10381"]I think it was these 2 characters I read in the bible in the past. Jacob got the birthright deceitfully and became great. but did he get any punishment for being deceitful though he became great? Thanks all[/QUOTE]

Abraham was still living when Jacob and Esau were in their adolescent/adult years. Consequently, both learned about God and of His future covenant through Abraham’s linage. (Genesis 22:8) It seems apparent that Jacob appreciated the honor and privilege to be part of this divine arrangement.

Jacob legally purchased-from his brother-the firstborn’s birthright and all that went with it. Jacob countenance was right with God, whereas, Esau was not. (Compare Genesis 4:4-7) Esau despised the birthright. (Genesis 25:34) This was probably one reason why God said: “I loved Jacob, but Esau I hated.” (Malachi 1:2, 3. Romans 9:12, 13) Another probable reason is because Esau rebelled against his father- Genesis 26: 34, 35; 28:6-9.

The Bible does not condemn Rebecca or Jacob. Jacob received the rightful blessing (Genesis 25:23) and Isaac himself evidently saw that God’s will had been accomplished.-Genesis 28:1-4. Evidentially, at Genesis 28:3, Isaac further blessed Jacob before he left to seek sanctuary with his uncle Laban in Haran.

 

[Taken]

I think it was these 2 characters I read in the bible in the past. Jacob got the birthright deceitfully and became great. but did he get any punishment for being deceitful though he became great? Thanks all

One glaring thing I believe is Jacob himself had something he Desired (as did Esau)... Jacobs desire was Rachel. And Jacob himself was DECEIVED.
Was that Jacobs “punishment” ? IDK.
Despite both Esau and Jacob being Deceived, they are examples, that mortals very close to you can Deceive you. We find the results. Both Esau and Jacob went on about their lives, despite having been deceived, Both prospered.
Jacob reuniting with Esau, had prepared gifts to make amends with Esau.
To Jacobs Joy, Esau had prospered, and their relationship mended.

What you sow, you will reap.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

I think it was these 2 characters I read in the bible in the past. Jacob got the birthright deceitfully and became great. but did he get any punishment for being deceitful though he became great? Thanks all

.
See Genesis 25 about Rebekah who prayed to God about the stir in her womb. It was then that God told her that the younger (Jacob) would rule over the elder brother (Esau).

Thus the Birthright was to go to Jacob all along per God's ordaining, NOT by deception the children of Esau like to throw up at times. The children of Ishmael like to do the same taunt, throwing up the idea that Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn so the birthright should have gone to Ishmael and not to Isaac. Yet God promised Abraham through his seed Issac is how His Birthright would go.

In Genesis 27 after Jacob had received the transfer of the birthright from his father Isaac, with Isaac thinking he was blessing Esau, then came Esau to receive the birthright blessing. The KJV reads as if Isaac gave Esau the same blessing that Jacob got, but there's actually a negative in the Hebrew manuscripts, and that means the opposite of Jacobs blessing.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

He became great by divine predestination. God's will cannot be thwarted. He always has a plan, even though human freedom is involved. God chooses to direct His path through people who are faithful.

So, through Abraham God developed a plan using people who would inherit Abraham's own characteristics. Though Jacob was human and free to err, he ultimately showed the characteristics he inherited from his father Abraham.

Jacob suffered the loss of his homeland for awhile due to his unethical behavior and treatment of his equally pathetic brother, Esau. And he himself was deceived by his father-in-law Laban, who was able to pull double amount of pay for the rights to his daughter Rachel.

But it is the ultimate achievement of faith in God and in His righteousness that justifies a man, and Jacob was rewarded for that, as well, by producing the nation promised to Abraham. That Jacob had a love for what is godly is shown in his love for his son Joseph, who persevered in righteousness in pagan Egypt. Jacob suffered the loss of his son Joseph for years, but finally was rewarded by receiving him back much later.

If we've done wrong, we'll suffer for it. But what counts is our final decision, and our willingness to persevere in it.

I think people should look at parts of the the story of Jacob & Esau that are not brought out. First there's the prophecy involved with Jacob & Esau, that the older would served the younger and the prophecy was made while they were still in their mother's womb. So both parents knew about the prophecy. There's also the fact we have to take into consideration is that Esau was fleshly minded and materialistic he cared little of spiritual things, I mean he sold his birthright for a bowl of stew. By selling his birthright, Esau showed he despised the birthright, so he viewed the birthright as of little value, which means Esau showed a complete lack of faith. He also married women who were a source of great grief to his parents because they were women who worshiped false gods. When the time came that Isaac was going to give the blessing of firstborn he was going to give it to Esau, in spite of the fact that the True God Jehovah had prophesied that the older would serve the younger. Also, it appears that Esau never told his father that he sold his birthright to Jacob so Esau knew the blessing of firstborn didn't belong to him, yet he tried to steal what belonged to Jacob when Isaac was going to give the blessing of firstborn to Esau. Jacob listened to his mother and pretended to be his brother and Jacob got what belonged to him.
I haven't seen Jacob punished for what transpired between he and his brother, I haven't seen any scriptural evidence of it anyway. Because Esau had sold his birthright to Jacob, Jacob was legally entitled to act in the role of his brother Esau, the firstborn of Isaac. There is no doubt whatsoever that Jacob was entitled to the blessing. Jacob didn't maliciously misrepresent himself to try and get something that didn't belong to him. The lesson in this story of Jacob & Esau is in the scripture Hebrews 12:16 that when it comes to the true congregation (church) of God that there be no person in the congregation that doesn't appreciate sacred things, like Esau, who exchanged for one meal his rights as firstborn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think people should look at parts of the the story of Jacob & Esau that are not brought out. First there's the prophecy involved with Jacob & Esau, that the older would served the younger and the prophecy was made while they were still in their mother's womb. So both parents knew about the prophecy. There's also the fact we have to take into consideration is that Esau was fleshly minded and materialistic he cared little of spiritual things, I mean he sold his birthright for a bowl of stew. By selling his birthright, Esau showed he despised the birthright, so he viewed the birthright as of little value, which means Esau showed a complete lack of faith. He also married women who were a source of great grief to his parents because they were women who worshiped false gods. When the time came that Isaac was going to give the blessing of firstborn he was going to give it to Esau, in spite of the fact that the True God Jehovah had prophesied that the older would serve the younger. Also, it appears that Esau never told his father that he sold his birthright to Jacob so Esau knew the blessing of firstborn didn't belong to him, yet he tried to steal what belonged to Jacob when Isaac was going to give the blessing of firstborn to Esau. Jacob listened to his mother and pretended to be his brother and Jacob got what belonged to him.
I haven't seen Jacob punished for what transpired between he and his brother, I haven't seen any scriptural evidence of it anyway. Because Esau had sold his birthright to Jacob, Jacob was legally entitled to act in the role of his brother Esau, the firstborn of Isaac. There is no doubt whatsoever that Jacob was entitled to the blessing. Jacob didn't maliciously misrepresent himself to try and get something that didn't belong to him. The lesson in this story of Jacob & Esau is in the scripture Hebrews 12:16 that when it comes to the true congregation (church) of God that there be no person in the congregation that doesn't appreciate sacred things, like Esau, who exchanged for one meal his rights as firstborn.

Gen 27.36 indicates there is a difference between the birth right and the blessing of the elder. Esau was the true elder of the two, and Rebekah conspired to have Jacob dishonor Esau by taking away even his honor of being the first born. Esau had given up much of his inheritance. But he had not given up being blessed and honored for being the firstborn.

Gen 27.36 36 Esau said, “Isn’t he rightly named Jacob? This is the second time he has taken advantage of me: He took my birthright, and now he’s taken my blessing!”

In the end, God maneuvered Jacob's life, by threat of Esau, so that he had to flee and be away, giving the inheritance of Isaac by default to Esau. But Esau allowed Jacob back into the inheritance. Who knows how it all got divided in the end? It seems that Esau moved east, and Jacob obtained the land promised to Abraham and Isaac. Apparently Esau was happy with the land he obtained to the east.

I do think you have a point, that Jacob's attempts at supplanting his brother was sort of "baked" into his DNA. After all, he was trying to do it during birth. He intuitively pursued what God gave him to pursue, and there was nothing wrong with pursuing God's will for his life.

However, I don't think deceiving his brother Esau was the noble way to go about it. He apparently lacked faith that God would make him the greater of the two, and so tried to obtain his called position in an underhanded way.

 

[Davy]

Gen 27.36 indicates there is a difference between the birth right and the blessing of the elder. Esau was the true elder of the two, and Rachel conspired to have Jacob dishonor Esau by taking away even his honor of being the first born. Esau had given up much of his inheritance. But he had not given up being blessed and honored for being the firstborn.

Yeah he did. Esau literally sold... his birthright to Jacob, as written.

Gen 25:29-34
29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33 And Jacob said, 'Swear to me this day'; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.
KJV

Esau's birthright which he sold to Jacob for a pot of beans, was the same blessing that God originally gave Abraham, and then to Isaac. One can easily trace the history of that particular Birthright, because it came from God, not man.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yeah he did. Esau literally sold... his birthright to Jacob, as written.

Gen 25:29-34
29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33 And Jacob said, 'Swear to me this day'; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.
KJV

Esau's birthright which he sold to Jacob for a pot of beans, was the same blessing that God originally gave Abraham, and then to Isaac. One can easily trace the history of that particular Birthright, because it came from God, not man.

Sorry, I quoted someone a verse about that, and you ignored it, choosing instead to double down on the other person's original point. Sounds like we're you're not considering the counter-point?

I quoted this:
Gen 27.36 36 Esau said, “Isn’t he rightly named Jacob? This is the second time he has taken advantage of me: He took my birthright, and now he’s taken my blessing!”

This indicates a distinction existed between one thing and another thing, between the selling of the birthright and the robbing of a blessing. Clearly, Esau mentions *two things*--not one. If the birthright and the blessing are essentially the same thing, why does Esau mention that the blessing is a second and therefore *different* thing?

 

[Curtis]

The Romans 9 potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.


As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


Gen 25:23 And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”

Romans 9,10, and 11 are actually about Israel, which came from Jacob, and other nations, more than about the two persons themselves.

Edom served Israel.

 

[Davy]

The Romans 9 potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.


As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


Gen 25:23 And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”

Romans 9,10, and 11 are actually about Israel, which came from Jacob, and other nations, more than about the two persons themselves.

Edom served Israel.

That's confusion, when you say Romans 9 isn't about Jacob and Esau personally...

Rom 9:10-13
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."

13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
KJV


That latter verse 13, Paul is pointing to the Book of Malachi where God says this...

Mal 1:2-3
2 "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
KJV

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Randy kluth said:
Gen 27.36 indicates there is a difference between the birth right and the blessing of the elder. Esau was the true elder of the two, and Rebekah conspired to have Jacob dishonor Esau by taking away even his honor of being the first born. Esau had given up much of his inheritance. But he had not given up being blessed and honored for being the firstborn.[/Quote\]

I disagree, the blessing that Isaac gave Jacob was the firstborn blessing. Isaac certainly didn't give the firstborn blessing to Esau, otherwise why was Esau so upset about, if Jacob didn't get the firstborn blessing here at Genesis 27:28,29. So I disagree, the scriptures at Genesis 27:28,29, 37,38 show that the blessing that Jacob got, was the blessing of firstborn. Isaac had gotten old and Isaac wanted to bless Esau with the firstborn rights before his death. That's how it was back then.
I don't understand how Jacob or Rebekah dishonored Esau when Esau was the one who sold his firstborn rights to Jacob. That was a legal transaction between Esau and Jacob when Esau sold his firstborn rights. Esau didn't have to sell them to anybody. He was wrong for accusing Jacob of anything because Esau sold his right as firstborn.
The blessing of firstborn is tied up with God's promise to Abraham (Genesis 12:2,3) Jacob was interested in the passing on of spiritual things to his family, the promise given to Abraham concerning the seed.Gen. 28:3, 4, 12-15.

Randy Kluth said:
However, I don't think deceiving his brother Esau was the noble way to go about it. He apparently lacked faith that God would make him the greater of the two, and so tried to obtain his called position in an underhanded[/Quote\]

I disagree that Jacob deceived anyone. God is against deceit. As I said Esau sold his firstborn right, that's nobody's fault but his. Esau didn't have to sell them. Esau by trying to get what he had sold to Jacob was the deceptive one. Also if Jacob was so wrong with how he handle this situation why doesn't the scriptures say so. There's nothing in the scriptures that show that God censored him or punished him in any way for handling the situation the way he did, and as I said we all know how God feels about deceit.

 

[atpollard]

Doesn't 'Jacob' mean "Trickster" in Hebrew?

In any event, the household of Jacob/Israel is a study in dysfunction. Wives and servants having children in an effort to win a contest to buy the love of a husband with children named as counting pieces in the contest. Small wonder the hatred ran deep enough that some siblings wanted to kill their rival half-brothers from "that other woman".

Jacob loved his children like he loved his wives ... selectively. Born out of a generational curse from a father that loved one son more than the other. Jacob had to trick his father into obeying what God had commanded. How is that for being "second best" in your father's heart?

 

[Jay Ross]

Doesn't 'Jacob' mean "Trickster" in Hebrew?

In any event, the household of Jacob/Israel is a study in dysfunction. Wives and servants having children in an effort to win a contest to buy the love of a husband with children named as counting pieces in the contest. Small wonder the hatred ran deep enough that some siblings wanted to kill their rival half-brothers from "that other woman".

Jacob loved his children like he loved his wives ... selectively. Born out of a generational curse from a father that loved one son more than the other. Jacob had to trick his father into obeying what God had commanded. How is that for being "second best" in your father's heart?

Perhaps you need to reflect a little longer on the story of Jacob.

The issue was with Isaac wanting to go against God and God's choosing of Jacob as the line through which the Abrahamic covenant would flow, while Jacob and Esau were still in the womb.

I can see God's hand in the events that enabled Jacob to receive Isaac's blessing. The trickster, in fact was Esau, who, according to the Book of Jasher, as a teenager, possibly around the age of 16 years old, killed Nimrod and then stole Adam's skins, made by God, from him, when Nimrod was dead, as a sign of Esau's presumed authority over people, that the skins gave. That was why Esau sold his birthright to Jacob, because he was fearful that if Nimrod's servants caught up with him that they would kill him out of revenge and the bowl of food from Jacob would provide a convincing cover for him if they did.

In the Bible, we are not given all of the possible facts that surround this part of the story of this particular interchange between the two twin.

Esau was the only accuser that Jacob was a trickster to cover the real reason why Esau gave up his birth right.

Shalom

 

[Curtis]

That's confusion, when you say Romans 9 isn't about Jacob and Esau personally...

Rom 9:10-13
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."

13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
KJV


That latter verse 13, Paul is pointing to the Book of Malachi where God says this...

Mal 1:2-3
2 "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
KJV

What i said is accurate- it’s much more about nations than Esau and Jacob personally, for example Paul quotes from Jeremiah 18 in Romans 9, which most people have no clue about, and in that potter and clay chapter, it’s the nation of Israel on the potters wheel, not Jacob, not Esau.

And Paul’s quote in Romans 9 about God having mercy on whom He wills, that also is from Jeremiah 18, and it is also referring to nations, not any individuals, where we find that God has mercy on nations that repent, and takes back His mercy from favored nations that turn to evil.

Thus Romans 9 is about the nations of Israel and Edom, much more than about Esau and Jacob.

Here’s what I posted in other threads on that:

Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)

Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”

(Edom served Israel)

And ISRAEL, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not ANY individual person - and as Jeremiah 18 shows us, God gives mercy on whom He wills - and He wills to have mercy on those who repent.

The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Israel’s continual sins and rebellion caused God to reshape Israel into another vessel on the potters wheel, as the next verse is an example of that:

2Ti 2:20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

2Ti 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

What kind of vessel anyone is, depends on their actions of honor or dishonor, not on predestination.

Who’s on the potters wheel? Esau, as Calvinism claims?

No. Esau is not clay on the potters wheel being formed into a vessel fitted only for destruction!

Israel is on the potters wheel, being reformed into a different vessel, due to their sin and rebellion. Jeremiah 18:4 and 6, given earlier.

There’s not any individual person such as Jacob or Esau, in the entire Potter and Clay chapter of Jeremiah 18, but only nations.

Therefore the Romans 9 account of Jacob and Esau is not about those two as individuals, but as founders of two nations.

We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.

No nation (or person) is predestined to destruction!

Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

So as we can see, Romans 9 is clearly about nations, and not about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the predestined reprobation of Esau into hell, as the Calvinist claims.

The fate of the nations (receiving Gods mercy, or Gods wrath) is dependent on WHAT THEY DO , and not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, or predestined to receive Gods mercy.

The Romans 9 potter and clay passage is therefore not in any way and about the predestination of Jacob to salvation, and Esau to damnation.

God will indeed have mercy on whom He will - and His will is that He has mercy whenever there is repentance - and also takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.

In fact, as many commentaries agree, Romans 9,10, and 11 chapters are primarily about the nation of Israel.

PS this quote you gave is also about the nation of Edom, which came from Esau:

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste (EDOM) for the dragons of the wilderness."
KJV

The mountains of the city of Edom were laid waste, as the verse you did not quote makes clear:

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage (EDOM) waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Mal 1:4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Even Gods hatred of Esau is about Edom, the nation he founded.

 

[Curtis]

Perhaps you need to reflect a little longer on the story of Jacob.

The issue was with Isaac wanting to go against God and God's choosing of Jacob as the line through which the Abrahamic covenant would flow, while Jacob and Esau were still in the womb.

I can see God's hand in the events that enabled Jacob to receive Isaac's blessing. The trickster, in fact was Esau, who, according to the Book of Jasher, as a teenager, possibly around the age of 16 years old, killed Nimrod and then stole Adam's skins, made by God, from him, when Nimrod was dead, as a sign of Esau's presumed authority over people, that the skins gave. That was why Esau sold his birthright to Jacob, because he was fearful that if Nimrod's servants caught up with him that they would kill him out of revenge and the bowl of food from Jacob would provide a convincing cover for him if they did.

In the Bible, we are not given all of the possible facts that surround this part of the story of this particular interchange between the two twin.

Esau was the only accuser that Jacob was a trickster to cover the real reason why Esau gave up his birth right.

Shalom

I don’t agree with that, because Esau was extremely angry when he learned Jacob by deceit stole his blessing of the firstborn son.

He wanted the status and blessing as a firstborn son, thus he didn’t give it up because of fear of retribution - and if angry relatives were after Esau for killing Nimrod, they wouldn’t care what his status in his family was.

 

[atpollard]

Esau was the only accuser that Jacob was a trickster to cover the real reason why Esau gave up his birth right.

Hebrew names have meanings.
Those meanings are often important to the story.

First, the story is what it is …

[Gen 25:19-34 NKJV]
19 This is the genealogy of Isaac, Abraham's son. Abraham begot Isaac. 20 Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah as wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan Aram, the sister of Laban the Syrian. 21 Now Isaac pleaded with the LORD for his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If all is well, why am I like this?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said to her:
"Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger."
24 So when her days were fulfilled for her to give birth, indeed there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red. He was like a hairy garment all over; so they called his name Esau. 26 Afterward his brother came out, and his hand took hold of Esau's heel; so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them. 27 So the boys grew. And Esau was a skillful hunter, a man of the field; but Jacob was a mild man, dwelling in tents. 28 And Isaac loved Esau because he ate of his game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
29 Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, "Please feed me with that same red stew, for I am weary." Therefore his name was called Edom.
31 But Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright as of this day."
32 And Esau said, "Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?"
33 Then Jacob said, "Swear to me as of this day." So he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and stew of lentils; then he ate and drank, arose, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
​

Second, the names have meanings and were based on their birth …

Esau = עֵשָֽׂו = H6215 = apparently a form of the passive participle of H6213 in the original sense of handling; rough (i.e. sensibly felt) = hairy.

Jacob = יַעֲקֹב = H3290 = from H6117; heel-catcher (i.e. supplanter)

• Additionally, the idea of a “heel-catcher” meant something in that day. It had the idea of “trickster,” “con-man,” “scoundrel,” or “rascal.” It wasn’t a compliment. - David Guzik

An observation from the story. Esau was born the physically stronger of the twins and God had already chosen Jacob for His blessing. How often God chooses the weak of this world over the strong. Probably part of displaying HIS strength all the clearer.