Jesus as a thief

[amadeus]

Yes John, very good. I see how much yoiu have grown too. I love you too.

And I love you old friend. Give God the glory!

 

[Enoch111]

Of course there were warnings, but how many people knew about them and of those who did know about them, how many accepted that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies?

There are two separate issues here:
1. how many people knew about them?
2. how many accepted that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies?

As to the first issue, all Jerusalem and Judea (and all the region round about Jordan) knew about Christ through John (Mt 3:5,6):
Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. [NOTE: All of Israel heard about the one who would baptize with the Holy Ghost]

As to the second issue, we know that the chief priests, scribes, lawyers and Pharisees rejected Christ. That was IN SPITE of John's announcements

But did they know that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecies?
Yes they did.
MATTHEW 2
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. [NOTE: They deliberately omitted the last clause of that verse from Micah 5:2, which revealed that Jesus is the eternal Son of God.]

 

[amadeus]

There are two separate issues here:
1. how many people knew about them?
2. how many accepted that Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies?

As to the first issue, all Jerusalem and Judea (and all the region round about Jordan) knew about Christ through John (Mt 3:5,6):
Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. [NOTE: All of Israel heard about the one who would baptize with the Holy Ghost]

As to the second issue, we know that the chief priests, scribes, lawyers and Pharisees rejected Christ. That was IN SPITE of John's announcements

But did they know that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecies?
Yes they did.
MATTHEW 2
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. [NOTE: They deliberately omitted the last clause of that verse from Micah 5:2, which revealed that Jesus is the eternal Son of God.]

I don't know why you continue to pursue this. I am not going to count the numbers with you. I'll grant you your two questions. I don't know the exact numbers but I also do not believe they are written in the scriptures so what is the point of continuing this? To discuss probabilities? Take that up with a math major which I am not.
rs, but neither do you and the scriptures are not that specific.

 

[Giuliano]

This is certainly a valid point. In the final judgment on each person how much he received does not really matter to God, but God still does choose to use people who have the necessary abilities [talents] to do the work He calls them to do. Consider the men named to lead and do the necessary work in the construction of the tabernacle in the wilderness:

"See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship," Exo 31:2-3

"And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;" Exo 31:6

And then again let us not forget Saul/Paul who was a man very well educated in the scriptures before he really knew God. God certainly knew well why He called Paul as the man who was to write most of what we name the New Testament.

God did not want someone who simply loved Him. He wanted that but He made certain the called person had the gifts to do the required task before him. Were new gifts given? Perhaps, but the old gifts... call them natural gifts if you will... were also to be used.

We see that was a physical type of temple or tabernacle; but I think it shows us something about the Spiritual Temple that Colin mentioned -- the Body of Christ -- where different people are given different gifts. All are necessary for the whole to fit together properly.

I also find it fascinating that the Gentile Hiram of Tyre helped Solomon build the First Temple. It's almost like a prophecy.

 

[Giuliano]

In Rev 3:3 Jesus said he would come like a thief, that they would not expect him, it is a warning to change.

It is not wtitten that Jesus was put in prison before his crucifition. The passage you are quoting is from the parable of the sheep and goats. Jesus said when ever you visted someone inprison, fed, clothed etc you did it for/to me.

It helps to understan just what the bible is saying or to quote the ch+ verse.

Jesus was a prisoner; and while the New Testament does not explicitly say Jesus was put in a prison, Isaiah 53, which I believe refers to Jesus, says it.

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

I think he also visited spiritual prisons to let some held captive free.

 

[Collin Feener]

It is prophecy. Everything that happened will happen again or is happening. With them, how their condition was Spiritually is what is written but how we are physically shows our condition. When David brought the Spiritual Down to teach them in the flesh the temple came to them but when we raise it up it comes to us.

 

[Giuliano]

It is prophecy. Everything that happened will happen again or is happening. With them, how their condition was Spiritually is what is written but how we are physically shows our condition. When David brought the Spiritual Down to teach them in the flesh the temple came to them but when we raise it up it comes to us.

Interesting that the Jews didn't do it by themselves. It was cooperation between Jew and Gentile. Both were needed then, and both are now. It is up to us, as you say.

Come to think of it, we see something similar when Cyrus thought it a good thing to allow Israel to return to build the Second Temple.

We see a Gentile, the daughter of Pharoah, pulling Moses out of the Nile. What would have happened if she hadn't been there to do that?

 

[bbyrd009]

How does the act of a mortal man imprision the Lord of Creation?

well, "Christ died for your sin" by your act, dunno about "imprisoned," might actually be a better metaphor?
The only being I am aware that is imprisoned is satan.[/QUOTE]the Lord of the Air? Why do you say satan is imprisoned, i dont get it

 

[bbyrd009]

I find it interesting that the servant given only one talent was the one who didn't do anything with it. Little was required of him, but he still didn't do it. It seems that God has a way of figuring out who is best trusted with what. I think if we are given little and faithful with that, then He sees us as more trustworthy and gives us more.

fwiw that parable will eventually do a switch on ya i think

 

[bbyrd009]

but God still does choose to use people who have the necessary abilities [talents] to do the work He calls them to do.

a, surely you know that teh RCC changed the def of "talent" from "money" to "ability" like about 300 years or so ago? Likely to obfuscate this passage? Like it is now? Didnt we have a thread here on that recently?

Anyway i at least suggest that when we Read "talent" we think "money," fwiw to anyone. The parable of the talents is a parable "of the money" right

 

[Windmillcharge]

But Jesus effectively imprisoned himself when he took on a veil of flesh subject to the temptations that afflict carnal men. He broke loose from that prison by the Word of God which He was and is. He overcame all of the temptations of flesh rather than allow them to overcome Him. Having done that He then laid down His own life as an undefiled sacrifice to open the Way for all of us. When people take the scripture which are themselves His Body, but use it based on their own carnal conclusions instead of allowiing it to be quickened [brought to Life] within them, therein lies the thievery of which our friend @Collin Feener speaks.

We must work in the day while there is Light before the night comes and darkness remains:

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work" John 9:4

Some people today reading his words in scriptures without understanding effectively work to put him back into prison because their delusions.

Jesus voluntarily limited himself when he became a man. That cannot be called a prison.
He voluntarily submitted to death, as he said 'I have authority to lay down my life and to take it up again.'

It is a mistake to think that we can imprison the Lord of Creation. The only ones being imprisoned is ourselve if we do not understand or live by Jesus's commands.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Jesus was a prisoner; and while the New Testament does not explicitly say Jesus was put in a prison, Isaiah 53, which I believe refers to Jesus, says it.

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

I think he also visited spiritual prisons to let some held captive free.

That he was a prisoner is not in dispute. What is being questioned is whether he was actually put into a prison.
What time was there between being arrested, taken before the council, being beaten, taken to pilate, taked to Herod and back to the council and to pilate.
All this in one night.
When was ne in prison?

 

[charity]

Jesus said in Revelations, do the things I hate and I will be to you as a thief. Jesus hated the way of this world. The things that take a man's life, put him in bondage. When we come to Jesus, without proper understanding we hold him imprisioned in darkness, as a thief. And it is also written he was put in prison before he was crucified, like a thief. He also said you did or did not visit me when I was imprisioned, did not feed me , give me to drink, and then again some did.

'Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard,
and hold fast, and repent.
If therefore thou shalt not watch,
I will come on thee as a thief,
and thou shalt not know what hour
I will come upon thee.'
(Revelation 3:3)

'Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth,
and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked,
and they see his shame.'
(Revelation 16:15)

Hello Colin,

The words, 'come as a thief', relate to the manner of His coming. To those whose eyes have been enlightened His coming will not be 'as a thief', for they will know the signs of His coming, but for those who are in darkness and have no light, it will be without warning or 'as a thief'. (1 Thessalonians 5:2 & 1 Thessalonians 5:4)

'But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.'
(2 Peter 3:10-13)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Collin Feener]

I like that. It seems that some do not understand what it means to be imprisoned in darkness. It means people are slaves to sin and in bondage to sin and the darkness means they do not understand.

 

[amadeus]

We see that was a physical type of temple or tabernacle; but I think it shows us something about the Spiritual Temple that Colin mentioned -- the Body of Christ -- where different people are given different gifts. All are necessary for the whole to fit together properly.

I also find it fascinating that the Gentile Hiram of Tyre helped Solomon build the First Temple. It's almost like a prophecy.

When we consider what prophecy is besides predicting the future we might not be wrong to see Hiram's part as such.

Gentiles are often included where mostly we see the offspring of Jacob. A look at the natural genealogy of Jesus shows us that.

 

[amadeus]

a, surely you know that teh RCC changed the def of "talent" from "money" to "ability" like about 300 years or so ago? Likely to obfuscate this passage? Like it is now? Didnt we have a thread here on that recently?

Anyway i at least suggest that when we Read "talent" we think "money," fwiw to anyone. The parable of the talents is a parable "of the money" right

Yes, I do understand this, but it's like manna [What is it? or bread, etc.] in a way. It can have meanings in addition to the stricter literal [there's that word again] one of spending or investment money. There are parts of ourselves that may be properly or improperly used, or even as with the man who buried his one talent so that it was not effectively used at all.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus voluntarily limited himself when he became a man. That cannot be called a prison.

Sure it can. That is what I called it.

He put himself in a place where he was subjected to something he likely never felt before: temptation.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

You say it was not a prison because you presume he could have departed at any time, but he proved that he could not when he prayed to His Father asking for release. He may had the power as we understand power to release himself but he was bound by his love for his Father. He stated it here in that same prayer:

"... nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Perhaps you or I or some other guy could have broken with the Father and gone the way of our fleshly desires... but Jesus could not. He loved His Father too much to quit. Too bad all of us cannot always say and mean exactly the same thing. Call it by another name, but a "prison" is certainly was for Him.

He voluntarily submitted to death, as he said 'I have authority to lay down my life and to take it up again.'

It is a mistake to think that we can imprison the Lord of Creation. The only ones being imprisoned is ourselve if we do not understand or live by Jesus's commands.

Jesus imprisoned himself and could not go against His Father's will.

 

[Collin Feener]

Sure it can. That is what I called it.

He put himself in a place where he was subjected to something he likely never felt before: temptation.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

You say it was not a prison because you presume he could have departed at any time, but he proved that he could not when he prayed to His Father asking for release. He may had the power as we understand power to release himself but he was bound by his love for his Father. He stated it here in that same prayer:

"... nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Perhaps you or I or some other guy could have broken with the Father and gone the way of our fleshly desires... but Jesus could not. He loved His Father too much to quit. Too bad all of us cannot always say and mean exactly the same thing. Call it by another name, but a "prison" is certainly was for Him.


Jesus imprisoned himself and could not go against His Father's will.

Yes this is true but we forget Jesus saying, You did or did not give me to drink or eat or visit me when I was in prison. What we do to the little ones , surely we do it to the Lord because they are his body.
So I say this again, imprisoned means keep in bondage to sin and the sin is darkness. So if we keep his body in darkness we keep him imprisoned in darkness because the church is his body.
If it was plain to understand the scriptures and the parables, why would it be we need the Holy Spirit and if they understood why is it they are afflicted in this darkness or Prison keeping Jesus there in his word.
Why is it Paul said the letter kills and the Spirit gives life and yet they know Jesus came in the flesh, not came in the Spirit. If Jesus was speaking plainly why are so many confused.

 

[Giuliano]

That he was a prisoner is not in dispute. What is being questioned is whether he was actually put into a prison.
What time was there between being arrested, taken before the council, being beaten, taken to pilate, taked to Herod and back to the council and to pilate.
All this in one night.
When was ne in prison?

I can't say I know.

 

[amadeus]

Yes this is true but we forget Jesus saying, You did or did not give me to drink or eat or visit me when I was in prison. What we do to the little ones , surely we do it to the Lord because they are his body.
So I say this again, imprisoned means keep in bondage to sin and the sin is darkness. So if we keep his body in darkness we keep him imprisoned in darkness because the church is his body.
If it was plain to understand the scriptures and the parables, why would it be we need the Holy Spirit and if they understood why is it they are afflicted in this darkness or Prison keeping Jesus there in his word.
Why is it Paul said the letter kills and the Spirit gives life and yet they know Jesus came in the flesh, not came in the Spirit. If Jesus was speaking plainly why are so many confused.

The confusion of people who have believed God and have real experiences with Him exist because they continue in some measure to draw their own conclusions in their own minds instead of continuing to surrender to God and to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. They presume the Holy Spirit in them will get it all right for them, but this is only so while we let the Holy Spirit in us have the reins.

The choice to hold the reins ourselves or to give them to the Holy Spirit, is NOT a one time choice. We continue to have "free will". This simply means at any point in time even after surrendering ourselves to God that first time, we still can reneg on our promise to God and go our own way instead of His.