Jesus dying on the cross

[Hiddenthings]

@Waiting on him

What I’ve noticed in this forum is that there are certain key verses often brought up by those who hold to the fallen angel doctrine, verses they use repeatedly to support their view. Quiet did it in this thread, as many others have before. These are well-worn passages, frequently cited, but rarely do we see much discussion on the broader context of John 8.

There’s a kind of delusion or spiritual blindness at play, a mindset exposed in those listening to Jesus. Though they physically hear His words, they remain deaf to the truth, and the passage gives us a glimpse into their state of mind.

Take John 8:33, for example...They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

That statement simply wasn’t true, not even from a historical standpoint. Israel had been enslaved or ruled over by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and was under Roman occupation at that very moment!

This self-deception isn't the result of some evil supernatural force, but rather the product of pride and self-righteousness that has been cultivated over many generations.

They're speaking in an echo chamber, just like many today who talk about evil spirits or fallen angels. Its misinformation handed down from teacher to student until they’re completely unaware of the deception they've embraced.

I mean, the very example is in the very chapter they cite and yet do they actually listen? Do they have ears to hear?

 

[quietthinker]

I'm simply someone who is well-informed and aware that you don't have the evidence. If you focus on the subject rather than attempting to discredit the person, you preserve your integrity and create a better opportunity for the truth to be revealed. Have you read @WaitingOnHim's posts? They seem to get it, maybe their perspective resonates more with you?

That which resonates with me are the words of Jesus.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That which resonates with me are the words of Jesus.

And what we attach to them...truth or error

 

[Jay Ross]

That which resonates with me are the words of Jesus.

Ah! Me thinks that someone is looking for a fight by trying to establish a strawman.

Me thought that, what you had posted, needed no embellishment

 

[Hiddenthings]

Ah! Me thinks that someone is looking for a fight by trying to establish a strawman.

Me thought that, what you had posted, needed no embellishment

Jay, it seems to me that some men's imaginations wander far beyond the text, drifting into mythological ideas which have no foundation in the Word of God.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, it seems to me that some men's imaginations wander far beyond the text, drifting into mythological ideas which have no foundation in the Word of God.

I thought that was your role on this forum. You seem to find fault where no fault is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I thought that was your role on this forum. You seem to find fault where no fault is.

As you've seen, there are some in this forum who seem eager to rewrite Scripture. Jay, how is it that you can't prove your ventriloquist story from the Bible, yet you impose it onto Genesis 3:1, just as Quiet did with John 8

As we have seen without evidence your myths are worthless...less than worthless.

 

[quietthinker]

As you've seen, there are some in this forum who seem eager to rewrite Scripture. Jay, how is it that you can't prove your ventriloquist story from the Bible, yet you impose it onto Genesis 3:1, just as Quiet did with John 8

As we have seen without evidence your myths are worthless...less than worthless.

hmmmmmm, double hmmmmmm!

 

[Hiddenthings]

hmmmmmm, double hmmmmmm!

The 'hmmmmm's are usually a sign that the well has run dry and the evidence just isn’t there. It's a tough doctrine to uphold, Quiet. I’d argue it’s one of the most troubling false teachings out there, because it requires its followers to invent so many unbiblical ideas to make it work. As we saw in this thread, Jane had a really difficult time, which ultimately led to her stepping away Imprisoned

 

[Jay Ross]

As we have seen without evidence your myths are worthless...less than worthless.

That is your opinion. There are others on this forum who would disagree with you.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That is your opinion. There are others on this forum who would disagree with you.

It's well supported by evidence, whereas the fallen angel theory is nothing more than a myth. What makes this difficult is that you have no evidence (at all) to refute the correct interpretation, especially when both Christ and Paul are in agreement on Genesis 3:1.

So, how do you respond to that, Jay?

 

[Jay Ross]

It's well supported by evidence, whereas the fallen angel theory is nothing more than a myth. What makes this difficult is that you have no evidence (at all) to refute the correct interpretation, especially when both Christ and Paul are in agreement on Genesis 3:1.

So, how do you respond to that, Jay?

Well you posted this is another thread:

this is a poor exposition, there’s not a single verse offered to support these ideas. Are we meant to just accept this without Scriptural backing?

Seems like this posting of yours is at the moment applicable to you with the above quoted post.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Well you posted this is another thread:

Seems like this posting of yours is at the moment applicable to you with the above quoted post.

Precisely, your assumptions can be tested and found without premise. No number of games can change this, Jay. If you have evidence lets see it.

Let's begin at the beginning with Gen 3:1?

Why did God create such a creature?

 

[Aunty Jane]

That very well may be true, but why the old testament when there certainly was violence? Jesus and God are the same, why did the time period of the old testament happen? Was it all simply for His glory?

Sorry, I haven’t had time to read the whole thread, but your questions have a rather simple answer If you drop all the confusing additions that have been added over the centuries.

What did the fall do to the human race who descended from Adam?
The whole of mankind was affected, rather than just to Adam and his wife.
His rebellious act caused imperfection and death to be introduced into the human genome…..so Adam passed on his penalty of death to all his children, like a terminal illness inherited from a parent, and for which there is no cure.

In God’s Law we see that atonement was important for the forgiveness of sins…..an animal’s blood was used to atone for the sin of the individuals offering it, and it had to be the best they could offer….no lame or blind animals or any defective ones were acceptable. This gave them atonement only in a temporary way because the blood of an animal could not fully atone for the blood of a human...but hope was given in the sacrifice of a perfect human to come, who would sacrifice his life on behalf of the now defective human family. The ultimate sacrifice that would redeem the whole human race. A sinless life offered for the sinless life that Adam lost for all of his offspring. This is the balance of the scales of justice.

How does this work? In legal matters, God’s law required like for like…”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth…and a life for life”…….if a man took the life of another, he was to pay with his own life. But to atone for the sin of Adam, a correspondingly perfect sinless life was needed……but there was no sinless human on earth to pay the price of redemption….so God provided the payment himself by sending his perfect son to die in our place.

Why did Christ’s death need to be so painful? It was because of who was leading the ones who brought about such a horrible death. The Pharisees, Jesus said, were operating under the influence of “their father the devil”, meaning that satan was going to make sure that Christ suffered as much as he could manage under notoriously cruel Roman rule.

Getting the Romans to execute the Messiah was necessary because the Jews had no right to execute anyone, being under Roman domination and law. They almost didn’t succeed when Pilate found Jesus not guilty of any crime under Roman law….but the crowd was getting nasty and threatened to report him to Caesar for treason. Pilate caved, and washed his hands of Jesus’ blood before handing him over for crucifixion. He even threw in a scourging and other iIl treatment to appease the crowd so that Jesus was tortured even before his was hung up to die a slow and agonizing death.

I hope that has answered your questions….

 

[Hiddenthings]

Precisely, your assumptions can be tested and found without premise. No number of games can change this, Jay. If you have evidence lets see it.

Let's begin at the beginning with Gen 3:1?

Why did God create such a creature?

@Jay Ross, you never actually answered the question. You entered the discussion with enthusiasm, but left without providing a single piece of evidence to support your claim.

 

[pandaflower]

Admittedly and not proudly I find myself not getting emotional when others/pastors talk about how Jesus had to die on the cross for us and the suffering He felr...yes it is absolutely terrible, devastating, and I can't imagine...but in my mind I just keep thinking about why did it have to be "set up like that" meaning why out of all the possible ways for us to be saved did it have to be that way? I realize like Paul says who are we mere humans to ask questions.

The scripture tells us,Jesus died as ransom for the sins of the people of the world.

What is a ransom?

If we accept Jesus was God made flesh,how is it he ransoms himself for the condition,dead in sin,separation from God, that he ordained himself for the human race.

In the ten commandments we're told to have no other God's before
God.
But God tells us,he's the only God and besides him there is no savior. So,what other god's were available?

The command is,have no other god's before God . There had to be an issue of other god's for God to command exclusive worship of himself.


The early Hebrews were polytheists before they became monotheist.

What if the curse upon humans in Eden was ordained by one of those other gods we aren't to have ,worship?

Which is why Jesus,our God, arranged his own crucifixion . So to pay the ransom for our souls from what that other lesser god ordained as a curse upon us in Eden.

Think of the God names in the Old Testament.
What if those aren't different names for one God. But are the names of other lesser god's.

Elohim in Hebrew means, god's.

Etymology of the name Elohim​

'Elohim' is a plural word, which is peculiar because God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4). Still, the singular form of the word Elohim is Eloah (אלה), and that form is used frequently in the Bible as well. In between these sits the construct form, that is: the plural form without the final ם (mem), or אלהי, Elohai, and indicative of a rudimentary genitive: 'Elohim of' or 'God of' or 'gods of'.
The etymology of both these terms is generally deemed uncertain but most likely they come from a root אלה ('lh):
Continues:

The amazing name Elohim: meaning and etymology

An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Elohim. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Elohim is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.

www.abarim-publications.com