Jesus is God not just a prophet... answering Muslims

[Debp]

Short but informative by Dr David Wood.

 

[Matthias]

I’m not a Muslim but I’m not persuaded by the argument Dr. Wood is presenting to them.

 

[Matthias]

In my opinion, Dr. Lennox presents a better argument, a stronger argument, to Muslims than does Dr. Wood. I’m more persuaded by it, too.

Would it be more persuasive to Muslims? It hasn’t been in my experience, but it has more room for dialogue.

 

[Debp]

I’m not a Muslim but I’m not persuaded by the argument Dr. Wood is presenting to them.

It was just a brief video on one point by Dr Wood. He has other videos about other points.

In my opinion, Dr. Lennox presents a better argument, a stronger argument, to Muslims than does Dr. Wood. I’m more persuaded by it, too.

Would it be more persuasive to Muslims? It hasn’t been in my experience, but it has more room for dialogue.

I watched most of the video and it is good.

Yes, we were taught about Jesus' "I Am" statements meaning He is saying He is God.

Also, Jesus always let people worship Him. And He was accused of blasphemy because He did that.

Of course the best evidence is a changed and peaceful life through knowing the Lord Jesus Christ. It's something Muslims can only see in person with their dealings with you.

 

[Matthias]

It was just a brief video on one point by Dr Wood. He has other videos about other points.

Yes. This particular point is easily dismissed because it’s based on a false premise. Have you employed it in conversation with Muslims?

I watched most of the video and it is good.

It is accommodating to Jewish monotheism. It isn’t as accommodating to Islam but it opens the door for a wider conversation, and there are some aspects of it which Muslims can agree with.

Yes, we were taught about Jesus' "I Am" statements meaning He is saying He is God.

I think you missed an important point Dr. Lennox made.

Also, Jesus always let people worship Him. And He was accused of blasphemy because He did that.

It’s not blasphemous in the culture of Jewish monotheism to worship someone other than Yahweh.

Of course the best evidence is a changed and peaceful life through knowing the Lord Jesus Christ. It's something Muslims can only see in person with their dealings with you.

I agree. There’s much to be said for that.

 

[Debp]

Yes. This particular point is easily dismissed because it’s based on a false premise. Have you employed it in conversation with Muslims?

No.

 

[Matthias]

No.

I hope you get the opportunity to someday. Firsthand experience is invaluable.

I had a professor in college who often encourages his students: “Learn by doing.”

 

[Debp]

I hope you get the opportunity to someday. Firsthand experience is invaluable.

I had a professor in college who often encourages his students: “Learn by doing.”

Sometimes one is led in a different way... especially if you sense there would be instant rejection and no further communication.

I do watch the Christian apologists as it gives information if I need it....it would come to mind.

Saw some things that are in the Quran. Such as they believe the devil resides in your nose overnight. That is why when they wake up, they are supposed to flush their nose out with water. Sun sets in a muddy pool. Can't recall more right now.

 

[Muna]

Saw some things that are in the Quran. Such as they believe the devil resides in your nose overnight. That is why when they wake up, they are supposed to flush their nose out with water. Sun sets in a muddy pool. Can't recall more right now.

I just posted on that today

 

[Debp]

I just posted on that today

In what thread did you post it? (Devil in their nose overnight.)

It's sad because some Muslims might not believe those things...but they are so brainwashed into staying as a Muslim. Afraid to be ostracized by family or friends....or killed in some countries.

 

[Muna]

In what thread did you post it? (Devil in their nose overnight.)

It's sad because some Muslims might not believe those things...but they are so brainwashed into staying as a Muslim. Afraid to be ostracized by family or friends....or killed in some countries.

Post #23 I was speaking of just what you posted here

666 the Unholy Trinity

A b is not a 6. 6 is the letter f. I personally believe (on their part) there is this built in "plausable deniabilty" thing (when it comes to them messing with people) sort of laughing in your face as they tip toe around it. You know, "imply something they can deny". Because obvously, in the...

www.christianityboard.com

I was just making it sound as if it was some non existent crazy belief (but one which really exists) even as you yourself found out.

 

[Debp]

Post #23 I was speaking of just what you posted here

666 the Unholy Trinity

A b is not a 6. 6 is the letter f. I personally believe (on their part) there is this built in "plausable deniabilty" thing (when it comes to them messing with people) sort of laughing in your face as they tip toe around it. You know, "imply something they can deny". Because obvously, in the...

www.christianityboard.com

I was just making it sound as if it was some non existent crazy belief (but one which really exists) even as you yourself found out.

Funny how we both thought of that devil in their noses on the same day!

Great minds think alike.

 

[Muna]

Funny how we both thought of that devil in their noses on the same day!

Great minds think alike.

Just in case I am going to start taking extra precautions, and start washing my nose out in the morning.

I don't want demons hanging out in my nostrils all day

Edit: "haging out" is not a word lol

 

[Debp]

Another brief video with Dr David Wood covering another point.

 

[Niblo]

Saw some things that are in the Quran. Such as they believe the devil resides in your nose overnight.

Really....whereabouts?

 

[Jericho]

Also, Jesus always let people worship Him. And He was accused of blasphemy because He did that.

Some others:
Jesus claimed to be Lord and had authority over the Sabbath (Matt 12:8)
Jesus was recognized as God by the demons (Mar 1:24)
Jesus forgave sins, something only God can do (Luk 5:20-25)

 

[Niblo]

I’m not a Muslim but I’m not persuaded by the argument Dr. Wood is presenting to them.

Greetings.

There is broad agreement among New Testament scholars (and has been for decades) that Yeshua did not consider himself to be God.

Consider, by way of example, the following quotations (from Trinitarians):

'Any case for a "high" Christology that depended on the authenticity of the alleged claims of Jesus about himself, especially in the Fourth Gospel, would indeed be precarious.' (The Rev. C.F.D Moule: ‘The Origin of Christology’).

'Jesus did not claim deity for himself' (Archbishop Michael Ramsey: ‘Jesus and the Living Past’).

‘There is good evidence to suggest that (Jesus) never saw himself as a suitable object of worship' and that it is impossible to base any claim for Christ's divinity on his consciousness once we abandon the traditional portrait as reflected in a literal understanding of St. John's Gospel' (The Rev. David Brown: ‘The Divine Trinity’)

‘It is no longer possible to defend the divinity of Jesus by reference to the claims of Jesus' (Canon Brian Hebblethwaite: ‘The Incarnation’).

Here is a quote by Cliff Reed, a Biblical Unitarian minister:

‘Unitarians believe that Jesus was a man, unequivocally human. It has long been our view that to talk of him as God is unfaithful to his own understanding of himself. The New Testament accounts describe a Jewish man, chosen, raised up, adopted and anointed by God. They claim that the divine purpose was that Jesus should reconcile first the Jews and then all humanity to each other and to God. This would prepare the way for the Messianic age of peace.’ (Sourced from a Unitarian website).

I agree with Cliff Reed.

Concerning the Doctrine of the Trinity:

The Fourth Lateran Council (1215 C.E) declared:

‘We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.’ (Constitutions: 1. Confession of faith).

The Council of Basel (1431-45 C.E.) decreed:

‘First, then, the holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one in essence, three in persons……………… These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three, one essence, one nature, one Godhead, one immensity, one eternity……. Therefore it condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the body of Christ, which is the church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views. Hence it condemns Sabellius, who confused the persons and altogether removed their real distinction. It condemns the Arians, the Eunomians and the Macedonians who say that only the Father is true God and place the Son and the holy Spirit in the order of creatures. It also condemns any others who make degrees or inequalities in the Trinity.’ (Session 114).

Tertullian, the third-century church father writes:

‘Father and Son and Spirit are three, however, not in status but in rank, not in substance but in form, not in power but in appearance; they are, however, of one substance and of one status and of one power, because God is one, from whom these ranks and forms and appearances are designated in name as Father and Son and Holy Spirit.’ (Adversus Praxean; Chapter 2).

As you know, Trinitarians believe that within the Godhead (the ‘one Substance’) the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons standing side by side, so to speak.

The Church teaches that God is 'immutable'.

By ‘immutable’ is meant that in God there can be no change whatsoever.

The Dominican theologian, St Thomas Aquinas bases the absolute immutability of God on His absolute simplicity (a Spirit, having no parts); on His pure actuality (He has no potential for change); and on His infinite perfection.

According to Aquinas, mutability includes potentiality, composition and imperfection and as such is irreconcilable with God as ‘actus purus’ (the absolutely simple, absolutely perfect Essence). (cf. Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 9; Article 1).

The 4th Lateran Council and the First Vatican Council taught that man consists of two essential parts – a material body and a spiritual soul (Denzinger 428, 1783).

Fourth Eucharistic Prayer (part of the Catholic liturgy) states (my emphasis):

‘And you so loved the world, Father most holy, that in the fullness of time you sent your Only Begotten Son to be our Savior. Made incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, he shared our human nature in all things but sin.’

Humans have but one nature (I know of no Christian doctrine that teaches otherwise).

If Christ has two natures (one human and one divine) then he cannot possibly be like us in ‘all things but sin.’

If, on the other hand, he truly is like us in all things (but sin) then he cannot possibly be God.

Trinitarians simply cannot have it both ways.

I invite any Trinitarian, participating in this thread, to please explain how God - pure spirit, pure actuality, with no potential for change (none whatsoever) - can become flesh (which is forever subject to change).

Blessings.

 

[Matthias]

Greetings.

There is broad agreement among New Testament scholars (and has been for decades) that Yeshua did not consider himself to be God.

Consider, by way of example, the following quotations (from Trinitarians):

'Any case for a "high" Christology that depended on the authenticity of the alleged claims of Jesus about himself, especially in the Fourth Gospel, would indeed be precarious.' (The Rev. C.F.D Moule: ‘The Origin of Christology’).

'Jesus did not claim deity for himself' (Archbishop Michael Ramsey: ‘Jesus and the Living Past’).

‘There is good evidence to suggest that (Jesus) never saw himself as a suitable object of worship' and that it is impossible to base any claim for Christ's divinity on his consciousness once we abandon the traditional portrait as reflected in a literal understanding of St. John's Gospel' (The Rev. David Brown: ‘The Divine Trinity’)

‘It is no longer possible to defend the divinity of Jesus by reference to the claims of Jesus' (Canon Brian Hebblethwaite: ‘The Incarnation’).

Here is a quote by Cliff Reed, a Biblical Unitarian minister:

‘Unitarians believe that Jesus was a man, unequivocally human. It has long been our view that to talk of him as God is unfaithful to his own understanding of himself. The New Testament accounts describe a Jewish man, chosen, raised up, adopted and anointed by God. They claim that the divine purpose was that Jesus should reconcile first the Jews and then all humanity to each other and to God. This would prepare the way for the Messianic age of peace.’ (Sourced from a Unitarian website).

I agree with Cliff Reed.

Concerning the Doctrine of the Trinity:

The Fourth Lateran Council (1215 C.E) declared:

‘We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.’ (Constitutions: 1. Confession of faith).

The Council of Basel (1431-45 C.E.) decreed:

‘First, then, the holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one in essence, three in persons……………… These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three, one essence, one nature, one Godhead, one immensity, one eternity……. Therefore it condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the body of Christ, which is the church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views. Hence it condemns Sabellius, who confused the persons and altogether removed their real distinction. It condemns the Arians, the Eunomians and the Macedonians who say that only the Father is true God and place the Son and the holy Spirit in the order of creatures. It also condemns any others who make degrees or inequalities in the Trinity.’ (Session 114).

Tertullian, the third-century church father writes:

‘Father and Son and Spirit are three, however, not in status but in rank, not in substance but in form, not in power but in appearance; they are, however, of one substance and of one status and of one power, because God is one, from whom these ranks and forms and appearances are designated in name as Father and Son and Holy Spirit.’ (Adversus Praxean; Chapter 2).

As you know, Trinitarians believe that within the Godhead (the ‘one Substance’) the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons standing side by side, so to speak.

The Church teaches that God is 'immutable'.

By ‘immutable’ is meant that in God there can be no change whatsoever.

The Dominican theologian, St Thomas Aquinas bases the absolute immutability of God on His absolute simplicity (a Spirit, having no parts); on His pure actuality (He has no potential for change); and on His infinite perfection.

According to Aquinas, mutability includes potentiality, composition and imperfection and as such is irreconcilable with God as ‘actus purus’ (the absolutely simple, absolutely perfect Essence). (cf. Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 9; Article 1).

The 4th Lateran Council and the First Vatican Council taught that man consists of two essential parts – a material body and a spiritual soul (Denzinger 428, 1783).

Fourth Eucharistic Prayer (part of the Catholic liturgy) states (my emphasis):

‘And you so loved the world, Father most holy, that in the fullness of time you sent your Only Begotten Son to be our Savior. Made incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary, he shared our human nature in all things but sin.’

Humans have but one nature (I know of no Christian doctrine that teaches otherwise).

If Christ has two natures (one human and one divine) then he cannot possibly be like us in ‘all things but sin.’

If, on the other hand, he truly is like us in all things (but sin) then he cannot possibly be God.

Trinitarians simply cannot have it both ways.

I invite any Trinitarian, participating in this thread, to please explain how God - pure spirit, pure actuality, with no potential for change (none whatsoever) - can become flesh (which is forever subject to change).

Blessings.

Is the average Muslim as well-read in Christian writings as you are?

 

[Debp]

Really....whereabouts?

Sorry it wasn't the Quran. It's in the Hadith.

Know Your Enemy – Shaytaan Spends the Night in Your Nose – Hadith

34. Narrated Abu Huraira (radhi Allaahu anhu) : Allah’s Messenger (Sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “When one of you wakes up from his sleep, he must clean his nose (with water, by sniffling it…

abdurrahman.org

Here is a quote by Cliff Reed, a Biblical Unitarian minister:

Don't take an Unitarian's word on Jesus Christ's divinity. Unitarians don't even believe in the blood of Jesus cleansing us of our sins.

 

[Behold]

Don't take an Unitarian's word on Jesus Christ's divinity. Unitarians don't even believe in the blood of Jesus cleansing us of our sins.

JW's are worse.
They will tell you that not every Christian goes to heaven, and not every Christian needs to be born again.

One of them....on this forum ... = Aunty Jane..., will be glad to tell you that not every Christian goes to heaven and not every Christian is born again.