Jesus is God not just a prophet... answering Muslims

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Niblo

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Is the average Muslim as well-read in Christian writings as you are?
Ahhh……I should explain:

I was born in 1945 – in the Rhondda Valley, South Wales – and raised a Baptist. At the age of fifteen I became a Catholic; and remained one for over fifty years.

Becoming a Catholic paved the way for direct communication with folk who knew their subject far better than I. After all, the only way to learn is from those who are better informed than oneself.

For ten years I was a professed member of the Carmelite Third Order; a secular branch of the Carmelite Order. Members engage in prayer, community, and service, under the guidance of the Carmelite tradition.

In pursuit of a religious vocation, I studied biblical and dogmatic theology; hermeneutics; biblical criticism; canon law, and so on. I had excellent teachers. I was a Thomist, and still have a very high regard for the methodology of Aquinas.

I spent a year with the Carmelite Friars at Hazlewood Castle in Yorkshire (now a hotel); and over a year with the Cistercians (Trappists) at Mount Saint Bernard Abbey in Leicester, testing a vocation (I first visited the Abbey in my early twenties, and knew the community well).

It became clear that life in a religious order was not my calling, and so I became a husband and father (as the Abbey Secretary said to me: ‘Our novitiate is a seedbed of good Catholic marriages!’). I look back at my time with the Carmelites and Cistercians with great affection. Even though I no longer share all their doctrinal beliefs, I admire their spirituality, and their honest convictions; and their way of life – especially that of the Cistercians.’

I inherited my love of books from my paternal grandfather.

He was taken out of school at the age of ten, and set to work in one of the local coalmines (this was unlawful at that time, but who cared?).

Using the local Miners’ Institute – these were centres of learning in those days – he studied (among many other things) both Hebrew and Greek. He was a polymath.

His second great passion – Faith and Family together being his first – was music. Able to play both violin and piano – and to transpose written music into tonic-solfa for those who could not read music – he was appointed Musical Director of the local Amateur Operatic Society. His favourite work was Handel’s Messiah. I can see him now, dressed in his black evening suit, white shirt, black dickie-bow, conducting a full chorus and orchestra, with his white baton; every word, every note engraved in his heart. I have his baton, but none of his talent!

In the 1920’s, a number of Italian families moved into Glamorgan and set up shops and cafes. One of these families (the Bassini’s) settled in my hometown.

When Italy declared war, and joined with Germany, the UK government issued an internment order against those it deemed to be ‘enemy civilians.’ This included the Bassini’s. The husband (I knew him as Jack) was taken away, but his wife and three children were allowed to remain in their home (they had a café and a fish and chip shop, located side-by-side).

One day, my grandfather – returning from work – discovered a mob, hurling abuse (and stones) at the Bassini’s and their home; at people they had once called friends. My grandfather stood between the mob and their target, and told them to stop, and to go home. They did.

Many years later, the family’s eldest daughter (Maria) was accepted as a Carmelite nun; and my grandfather and grandmother were invited to attend the investiture ceremony. A great honour.

My grandfather was an Elder at Blaencwm Chapel (now a pay-as-you-like café!). The Elders employed the Minister.

When I was a teenager, one Minister visited my grandfather’s house. He was treated like royalty. My grandfather called him ‘Sir’. Later, I asked my grandfather why he had called this man ‘Sir’ after all, he was the Minister’s boss!

My grandfather smiled, and said: ‘I’m just an Elder. The Minister speaks the Word!’

When my grandfather died, several hundred men – of all ages – attended his funeral (women did not attend funerals in those days). They filled the cemetery chapel, and many were weeping openly.

My grandfather was able to calm a howling mob – and move the hearts of many – not because of any legal authority (he had none), but because of his character; because of the person he was. He lived his Faith as it was meant to be lived. A Christian would say that he reflected the love of Jesus; and that it was this that made him a shining beacon to others. I would say that he reflected the love of the Beloved. He led by example rather than by argument. My greatest regret is that I was too young – and, when old enough, too immature – to hold long conversations with him, and to fully appreciate the kind of man he was.

He is, by far, the finest man I’ve ever known.

Blessings.
 
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Niblo

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Sorry it wasn't the Quran. It's in the Hadith.

Not to worry.

Neither of us makes a mistake; we merely create an opportunity for improvement.

This is the relevant ḥādīth:

‘Abu Huraira reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose.' Muslim: Book 2: Hadith 462). Book 2 is entitled ‘The ‘Book of Purification’.

It is important to set this ḥādīth in context.

The ‘Book of Purification’ lays stress on the importance of cleanliness. It teaches that impurities can harm a person’s physical and mental health.

In this ḥādīth, the word ‘devil’ is a translation of the Arabic ‘shayṭān’.

The word ‘shayṭān’ is a common noun, applied to any entity that can cause harm. This would include dust; viruses; and bacteria.

You will appreciate, of course, that (collectively) dust; viruses; and bacteria are all around us; and at all times. Satan, on the other hand, is not. Omnipresence is not one of his attributes. This alone tells us that the ḥādīth does not concern him.

With all this in mind, the ḥādīth can safely be rendered:

‘When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for that which causes harm spends the night in the interior of his nose.'

Dr Usha Chennuru – a Hindu, and Director, Medical Services, Cipla Health Ltd – writes:

‘Your nose is essential for conditioning the air you breathe apart from humidifying and controlling the temperature of the air you inhale. It facilitates optimal oxygen intake and discharge of carbon dioxide. Since nasal hygiene involves keeping your nasal passages clean, clear, and moisturized, it enhances all the functions of your nose and reduces any congestion that disrupts breathing or causes irritation.

‘Since your nostrils are exposed to the environmental air, they can become accumulation areas for dust, pollution, bacteria, viruses, and fungi. The presence of such foreign substances can trigger multiple problems such as infections, diseases, and sicknesses. Your nose acts as the first line of defense against these foreign substances. According to experts, a clear nasal passage protects you and helps you sleep better as well. If you are prone to allergies, nasal hygiene is a must.

‘Many people are concerned regarding the best time to practice their nasal cleanliness routine. Well, you should do it once in the morning and again in the evening. A nasal wash before starting your day will clean all the pollutants that might have accumulated over the night time. On the other hand, a rinse before bed will clear out your nasal cavity, consequently improving your breathing and facilitating a peaceful sleep. If you step out frequently, make sure you are cleaning your nose properly as it can significantly reduce the chances of cold and other nasal allergies.’ (From the website: ‘Healthshots’).

Dr Usha Chennuru and the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) would be in full agreement.

Blessings.
 

Niblo

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Don't take an Unitarian's word on Jesus Christ's divinity. Unitarians don't even believe in the blood of Jesus cleansing us of our sins.

I once thought so.

However, the Biblical Unitarians John W. Schoenheit, Mark H. Graeser and John A. Lynn write:

‘Two primary qualities of God help us understand why Jesus Christ had to suffer and die in order to redeem mankind. First, God is righteous. Thus His justice demands that a penalty for sin be paid.

‘God cannot ignore the fact of man’s hideous transgression. That transgression must be punished, and if man is restored to God, it must be upon grounds that will not pauperize man nor rob him of his self-respect; but it must be upon legal grounds that will perfectly justify man in the sight of God…

‘Second, God is love. Thus, in His grace and mercy, He decreed that the penalty for sin could be paid by a substitute, providing that the substitute be sinless.

‘Because of the magnitude of Adam’s sin and its reverberating ramifications, only the death penalty would satisfy true justice. Hebrews 9:22 says that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [of sin].” In the Old Testament, it was the death of unblemished “stand-in” lambs and other animals that God allowed to temporarily cover His people’s sins (Hebrews 10:1-14). These sacrifices were foreshadows, or types, of the coming Redeemer, Jesus Christ. He is the true “Lamb of God” whose blood was shed to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

‘How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

‘As we have stated, Jesus Christ was the only man who was “without spot or blemish,” both genetically and behaviourally. As such, only He could qualify to offer His life as the payment for the sin and sins of mankind. The suffering and death of Jesus Christ was part of God’s plan to make available salvation to all mankind.

‘What the blood of bulls and goats could do only temporarily for Israel in the Old Testament, the blood of Jesus has done once and for all for everyone who believes in Him. He bore our sins in his own body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). By His freedom of will He gave up His life for us. He willingly endured the pain of the cross and death for all men. We must understand, however, that it was not God who was responsible for Jesus’ death. Note the following verses:

‘The “rulers of this age” are Satan and his evil-spirit sidekicks (the disobedient angels that were cast down to earth with him). God’s Word plainly says that it is the Devil who was responsible for killing Jesus Christ.

‘Jesus Christ is the Last Adam, the fulfilment of God’s prophecy in Genesis 3:15. As our Redeemer, Jesus purchased our salvation with his own blood. He provided, and is, the way back to God that Adam had lost. Those who confess him as Lord and believe in his resurrection are saved, fully equipped to live in this corrupted world and guaranteed ultimate and everlasting victory over sin and death, as we shall see.’ (‘Don’t Blame God! A Biblical Answer to the Problem of Evil, Sin and Suffering.’).

I hope this helps.

Blessings.
 
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Matthias

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What is the definition of a prophet?

God himself is not a prophet.
 

soberxp

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I’m not a Muslim but I’m not persuaded by the argument Dr. Wood is presenting to them.
These statements are completely meaningless.
Jesus Christ is the image of God.
Not Jesus Christ is God.
Jesus Christ is the word of God in the flesh.
That means what we need to learn from God is the word of God.
Not we should learn from is the Jesus is God.
Father is son, what a great Joy.
 

Matthias

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These statements are completely meaningless.
Jesus Christ is the image of God.
Not Jesus Christ is God.
Jesus Christ is the word of God in the flesh.
That means what we need to learn from God is the word of God.
Not we should learn from is the Jesus is God.
Father is son, what a great Joy.

Why do you think they are meaningless?
 

Matthias

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For they set their minds on unprofitable learning, and such things only stir up strife.

There is truth contained in some of the statements. Setting our minds on truth is profitable learning, even if it stirs up strife.
 

soberxp

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There is truth contained in some of the statements. Setting our minds on truth is profitable learning, even if it stirs up strife.
The Bible has given truth.
Jesus Christ is the word of God in the flesh,the image of God.the word (only) was God ,now the word is Jesus Christ and God.
I and my father Are one.

The Bible never give a hint,Jesus Christ is the monotheistic God.

And what we need focusing on the word of God though Jesus Christ.

If some one telling Jesus is God,he never focus on the word of God,but a lie and hallucination.
 
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Matthias

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The Bible has given truth.
Jesus Christ is the word of God in the flesh,the image of God.the word (only) was God ,now the word is Jesus Christ and God.
I and my father Are one.

The Bible never give a hint,Jesus Christ is the monotheistic God.

And what we need focusing on the word of God though Jesus Christ.

Focusing on the word of God through Jesus Christ - which is a very good thing - has produced strife for 2,000 years. It will produce strife until he returns.
 

soberxp

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Focusing on the word of God through Jesus Christ - which is a very good thing - has produced strife for 2,000 years. It will produce strife until he returns.
If some one telling Jesus is God,he never focus on the word of God,but a lie and hallucination.

How blind leading the blind.
 

Matthias

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If some one telling Jesus is God,he never focus on the word of God,but a lie and hallucination

That should resonate with Muslims (and Jews). It won’t resonate with trinitarian, binitarian and the majority of unitarian Christians.

My position as a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of the living God - a belief which separates me from unbelieving Jewish monotheists - is that Jesus is elohim / theos within the constraints of Jewish monotheism.
 

soberxp

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That should resonate with Muslims (and Jews).
Because the Koran comes from God's guidance, he knows that people have some problems, some mistakes.( I mean the words in the book are correct, but I don't think human religions are without problems. )
It won’t resonate with trinitarian, binitarian and the majority of unitarian Christians.
Because they blind and wrong.
My position as a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of the living God - a belief which separates me from unbelieving Jewish monotheists - is that Jesus is elohim / theos within the constraints of Jewish monotheism.
The Koran makes it clear that both Jews and Christians are ignorant,(There are problems on both sides.)
The main problems is about the Messiah and the monotheists.

Anyway, the funny thing is that God cleans up humans' messes, but the messes just keep piling up. I don't think the Arabs reading the Koran today understand this.I think they screwed up, too.


I screwed up, too.
 
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Matthias

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Muslims understand that God is not a prophet. Jews understand that God is not a prophet. Christians should understand that God is not a prophet.

By definition, a prophet is someone who isn’t God.

Dr. Wood is certainly aware of the definition. The best response, imo, is to calmly remind him of it and politely ask him to elaborate on what he is saying, keeping the definition in mind.

Allah, the God of Islam, is not a prophet. Yahweh, the God of Israel, is not a prophet.

P.S.

“Jesus was not, and is not, Yahweh.” - Ben Witherington, III (trinitarian scholar)

I recommend sharing that widely in dialogue with Muslims, Jews and Christians.
 
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