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Oddawll2

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Quite the opposite. Jesus had compassion on the leper. So whatever perverted version you may be reading, you should let it go. Especially if it needs a footnote to clarify what is already in the text.

Since the Gospels are not fiction but historical fact, the Gospel writers were not free to embellish their narratives. They wrote only what the Holy Spirit gave them to write.
I don't recall ever hearing the word, perverted, to describe scripture; but scholars use the word, corrupted, which is probably the reason that translations have so many footnotes. The Geneva Bible may hold the record for most footnotes.

Since different manuscripts differ on which word to use, maybe Jesus had both indignation and compassion. Maybe he had compassion for the leper, and he had indignation for the fact that he could not make available the cure for leprosy, which he must have known.
 

Oddawll2

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Interesting bit of history ...

Mark 7:4 says that when Jews "come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles."

.... Which make me wonder if this implies that other people did not wash.
 

Deborah_

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Interesting bit of history ...

Mark 7:4 says that when Jews "come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles."

.... Which make me wonder if this implies that other people did not wash.

The washing of the Pharisees described here was not for personal hygiene, but a ritual they went through to rid themselves of spiritual 'contamination' that they might have picked up while rubbing shoulders with other people who were not as obsessed with ceremonial purity as they were. They might even have come into contact with 'unclean' Gentiles! So they washed - just in case!
 

justbyfaith

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@Oddawll2,

I would suggest picking up a kjv; because while it may seem archaic and some are turned off to it by that, it is based on a Greek Hebrew, and Aramaic manuscript source that includes things that the Holy Spirit would like to minister to you that are left out by versions of the Bible that are based on what I would call "watered-down" manuscripts; and which also produce watered-down translations.
 

Oddawll2

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@Oddawll2,

I would suggest picking up a kjv; because while it may seem archaic and some are turned off to it by that, it is based on a Greek Hebrew, and Aramaic manuscript source that includes things that the Holy Spirit would like to minister to you that are left out by versions of the Bible that are based on what I would call "watered-down" manuscripts; and which also produce watered-down translations.

Okay, I could do that.

But first, tell me ...

Where can I find an ancient manuscript of the New Testament written in anything other than Greek?

I realize that I'm new at this, so maybe ancient Hebrew or Aramaic manuscripts exist, but in Sunday school lessons and at least one CSpan video, I'm told that the ancient sources for the New Testament were written in Greek.
 
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Oddawll2

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The washing of the Pharisees described here was not for personal hygiene, but a ritual they went through to rid themselves of spiritual 'contamination' that they might have picked up while rubbing shoulders with other people who were not as obsessed with ceremonial purity as they were. They might even have come into contact with 'unclean' Gentiles! So they washed - just in case!

So do you mean that Jews did not wash cups and kettles unless contaminated by a Gentile?
 

justbyfaith

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Okay, I could do that.

But first, tell me ...

Where can I find an ancient manuscript of the New Testament written in anything other than Greek?

I realize that I'm new at this, so maybe ancient Hebrew or Aramaic manuscripts exist, but in Sunday school lessons and at least one CSpan video, I'm told that the ancient sources for the New Testament were written in Greek.
I was referring to the fact that the Old Testament has its originals in the Hebrew and Aramaic (Greek also, in the Septuagint). Mostly written in Hebrew, some portion of Daniel in Aramaic.
 

Oddawll2

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I was referring to the fact that the Old Testament has its originals in the Hebrew and Aramaic (Greek also, in the Septuagint). Mostly written in Hebrew, some portion of Daniel in Aramaic.

Yes, that's what the folks here have told me. Will you give me an example of a "watered down" translation?
 

justbyfaith

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The NIV and the NASB are the primary ones that I am leary of. I have found that they are based on manuscripts that have certain inspired verses/phrases/passages missing from their pages...such as 1 John 5:7, the latter half of Mark 16, the beginning of John 8, the latter half of Romans 8:1, Jesus' words in Luke 9:55-56 is missing...and there are very likely many more things like this (I did not go on a vendetta against the versions to try and find every instance where the scriptures are missing...but these are the things I became aware of in my excursion into trusting these versions for a season and then returning to the kjv later).
 
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Oddawll2

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For 1 John 5:7-8 the KJV differs from the NIV just like you said. The NIV has a footnote which I do not understand, but I'm guessing that they mean to say that the manuscripts available to the King James translators differ from the older manuscripts that have become available in the last 200 years, and they decided to use the older version.

1 John 5:7-8 KJV

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: [This is missing from NIV]
and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, [This line is not in NIV]
the Spirit, and the water, and the blood:
and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:7-8 NIV

7 For there are three that testify:
[missing phrase ]
and these three are one,

8 [Missing phrase]
the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood;
and the three are in agreement.

I have no clue as to why it matters.
 

justbyfaith

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I have no clue as to why it matters.

It matters because if a person is reading the NIV or the NASB, the Holy Spirit is hindered from ministering to the person with certain specific verses short of a word of knowledge or some kind of supernatural occurrence; because the word that He wants to minister to the person through is nonexistent in the Bible that they are reading!
 

Oddawll2

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It matters because if a person is reading the NIV or the NASB, the Holy Spirit is hindered from ministering to the person with certain specific verses short of a word of knowledge or some kind of supernatural occurrence; because the word that He wants to minister to the person through is nonexistent in the Bible that they are reading!

Well, that's interesting. I have a sense that others here will agree with you.
 

Deborah_

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So do you mean that Jews did not wash cups and kettles unless contaminated by a Gentile?
No - obviously they washed things that were physically dirty. The point is, that the Pharisees washed even clean things (and people) if there was even the possibility that they might have been touched by Gentile hands.

For 1 John 5:7-8 the KJV differs from the NIV just like you said. The NIV has a footnote which I do not understand, but I'm guessing that they mean to say that the manuscripts available to the King James translators differ from the older manuscripts that have become available in the last 200 years, and they decided to use the older version.


I have no clue as to why it matters.

It matters because if a person is reading the NIV or the NASB, the Holy Spirit is hindered from ministering to the person with certain specific verses short of a word of knowledge or some kind of supernatural occurrence; because the word that He wants to minister to the person through is nonexistent in the Bible that they are reading!

It doesn't matter. Many many Christians use modern versions, and it doesn't seem to hinder the Holy Spirit at all. A lot of fuss is made in some quarters about "missing verses" in the newer Bibles - the fact is, that the vast majority of these are duplicated elsewhere in the New Testament, so if you read the whole Bible (as most of us do) there is no problem. Other verses are relegated to footnotes, because we now know (as the KJV translators did not) that they are very very unlikely to be original. As in the I John 5 example given above. The fact that the extra sentence is of very dubious provenance means that it shouldn't be used to establish doctrine anyway. And we don't need it, as there is plenty of other biblical evidence for the Trinity.

You will probably find many threads on this forum (and other forums) discussing the "KJV-only" issue. I hope this thread won't get diverted into that profitless channel. There seem to be a lot of Christians who genuinely believe that other Bibles are inferior, but as an experienced NIV-user I find their arguments totally unconvincing.
 
B

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Greeting Oddawll2 and welcome to this forum. And welcome also to the family of God. It is wonderful that you are reading the Bible in a manner and with a motive to cover truth, rather than as an exercise to discredit or malign.... That of itself is sufficient evidence of your genuine conversion.
Now at the risk of raising the ire of other members here who may disagree, I would like to propose one or three basic principles that may help you to understand the scriptures, at least in the basics. No-one expects you to earn a doctorate in divinity... Ever... so don't sweat not getting it.
First point. The Bible is not word inspired. There are some minor discrepancies between the eye witness accounts we read of Jesus life in the gospels... Which is to be expected because you have different people seeing the same things but from different perspectives. This is all in God's order in order that we may gain greater insight into the events thus described. Police love this when presenting a case. 10 witnesses giving exactly the same evidence creates suspicion of collusion... so slight differences in the gospels give more credence to their validity and truthfulness. So, not word inspired, but most assuredly thought inspired. Inspired by the holy Spirit the writers of scripture, including the prophets of the Old testament, wrote in their own words the thoughts and principles that God revealed to them.
Secondly, about the Trinity. The Trinity, as a word, is not found in scripture. Scripture uses the word Godhead... Which is my preference. God is God. He is unexplainable, except in those areas He has been pleased to reveal. What we know is what we are told. When people attempt to explain the term Trinity, they invariably need to use expressions and concepts that are not found in the Bible. To my mind, if a concept itself in unexplainable, and those promoting it cannot adequately explain it in a way any else can understand, it is best left alone.
What we are told, in its most basic fundamental form is adequate. That God is a Father. That Jesus is His Son. God says Jesus is worthy of worship... Obviously because of His Sonship. The holy Spirit is described in the scripture as being the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Jesus, sometimes in the same sentence. The scripture also says Jesus was the vessel through Whom God the Father created all things... Therefore the Sonship of Jesus goes back to a time before creation. We are not told how long. Nor are we told the Son is as old as the Father as the Trinity attempts to teach us. A Son the same age as His Father is simply not logical. And God is logical, and has described his identity in ways that are logical and in harmony with our admittedly finite minds. It is dangerous to go beyond that. I could go a little deeper, but the above I think is sufficient to give you somewhat of a broader perspective of what you are getting yourself into. The Trinity, despite the creeds etc that demand it is a doctrine all Christians must accept to avoid being labelled heretics or non Christians, is an essence an assumed doctrine. Assumed doctrines should never be doctrines.
 

justbyfaith

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Many many Christians use modern versions, and it doesn't seem to hinder the Holy Spirit at all.

There seem to be a lot of Christians who genuinely believe that other Bibles are inferior, but as an experienced NIV-user I find their arguments totally unconvincing.

Then I won't try to convince you. You have every right to seek to enter in by way of the broad path (Matthew 7:13-14).
 

bbyrd009

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As time goes on, maybe I can grok it.
ntmy :)
do yourself a favor imo, and at least consider other povs than the religious ones,
Patterns in the Bible

and note that Paul stated "I know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock," in Acts 20:29 Acts 20:29 won't reflink for some reason hmm

we're pretty much the wolves, ok?
lol
don't get sucked in to Death, More Abundantly imo
 
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bbyrd009

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Yes, I know. The Trinity only restates the Bible. If fact it seems like such a reasonable idea, one wonders why people argue about it.

However, if Jesus is the Holy Spirit, he should have no need to receive the Holy Spirit. Or is he the Holy Spirit because he received the Holy Spirit. Is it a question even worth asking?
no, that way lies death, there are no people in God, and anyone who suggests otherwise is insane and cannot read to boot
pantheons are for Pagans, ok, which btw aren't bad ppl at all, per se :)
 
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