John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Rich R]

They are both the Holy Spirit, unless you think one of them is a different Spirit.

Notice that the verse is teaching that they are both the Holy Spirit......Not that they each have the Holy Spirit, but that they ARE the Holy Spirit, both,.... that is in the born again, as proof the person is redeemed.

Notice this.. the born again are become "the Temple of the HOLY Spirit". = "Christ IN YOU< the hope of Glory".

So, there it is again... Christ THE Holy Spirit is in you if you are born again as the "temple of the HOLY Spirit".

"Christ IS that Spirit"..... and "God is A Spirit", and "where the Spirit of Christ is, there is Liberty"

See it?
Over and over the NT keeps presenting God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit as ONE...= the same.

Why? Because its true.

In John, Jesus prayed twice that we would all be one. Does that make us all God? Better reconsider what it means to be one. I just read where a mob "was one" in their demands for better living conditions.

I almost hate to bring it up, but it is a fact that both ancient Hebrew and Greek were written in what we call all capital letters. When King James (and most all other English versions) capitalize "holy" and "spirit" sometimes and sometimes not. The problem is that when we see it capitalized we immediately think it is talking about a person. In any case, it prevents us from understanding it the same way those to whom God originally wrote understand it. It's a deep subject that require a certain amount of scholarship, so, knowing you don't like scholarship, I won't get into it. Still, without that understanding, the book will remain largely unintelligible in the area of holy spirit.

 

[Behold]

Would you mind explaining why my not agreeing with you is "stone headedness"? Why isn't you who is stone headed for not agreeing with me?

Have you explained to these Readers that all your answers, or the greater majority, are the product of what you classify as "scholarship" material you are using,...quoting, pasting..... that you didn't write?

You have made this clear to them?

 

[Rich R]

Isaiah 55:9 says that God's Ways are higher than Mans ways.........this is not the same as God being Revealed.

Another verse by Paul gives more context....Its says that no one, not me, you, your favorite scholars, have any idea what God has prepared "up there" for those who have become His, down here, who love Him.

1 Corinthians 2:9

So, we can Know God, and we can receive revelation, but as compared to Jesus who is "ALL the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge".... even Soloman was clueless.

Yes, but even with that clarification, it still doesn't give us license to say things that completely defy normal language, grammar, and logic. Before saying that God is somehow above logic, consider John 1:1 and all the other places where we find the Greek word "logos."

 

[Behold]

In John, Jesus prayed twice that we would all be one. Does that make us all God?.

Christ....Praying for what He wants of humans, is not quite the same as being in Heaven, as the Living Bread come down who said "I and my Father are One".

Paul always wanted all believers to come to one Union of Mind, of Faith.

So, when a person is born again, they become ONE with God...... so, there is that "one".

"One body of Christ". "One BRIDE of Christ".

Jesus was ONE with God, before He came down here.

"Let US make man in OUR Image".

See the "US and OUR".. That is God the Father, Christ the pre-incarnate Word, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

I almost hate to bring it up, but it is a fact that both ancient Hebrew and Greek were written in what we call all capital letters. When King James (and most all other English versions) capitalize "holy" and "spirit" sometimes and sometimes not. The problem is that when we see it capitalized we immediately think it is talking about a person. In any case, it prevents us from understanding it the same way those to whom God originally wrote understand it. It's a deep subject that require a certain amount of scholarship, so, knowing you don't like scholarship, I won't get into it. Still, without that understanding, the book will remain largely unintelligible in the area of holy spirit.

You are correct that the capitalization is part of the translation, not the text.

The uncials don't really affect places where the Holy Spirit is written of as a person. You can go with uncials or miniscules, but the passages read the same. You can make the argument that "holy spirit" refers to the quality of spirit God annoints you with, or however you want to think of this,but that's not at all there is to this discussion.

Acts 20:28 KJV
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 13:2 KJV
2) As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Acts 5:3-4 KJV
3) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Ephesians 4:30 KJV
30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Mark 13:11 KJV
11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

John 14:26 KJV
26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 1:16 KJV
16) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Acts 15:28 KJV
28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 16:6 KJV
6) Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Acts 20:23 KJV
23) Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Acts 21:11 KJV
11) And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Romans 15:16 KJV
16) That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV
13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Hebrews 3:7 KJV
7) Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Hebrews 9:8 KJV
8) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

The Holy Spirit . . .

Made you overseers.
Said "separate me Barnabas and Saul to the work whereunto I have called them.
Can be lied to, and that lie is to God.
Can be grieved, that is, made very sad.
Speaks.
Teaches.
Reminds.
Has Opinions.
Forbids.
Witnesses.
Prophesies.
Sanctifies.
Signifies.

And all this signifies to me . . . the Holy Spirit is a Person within the Godhead, regardless of capitalization.

Much love!

 

[Rich R]

One day, both you and your scholars are going to bend your knees and your tongue WILL confess, that "Jesus IS LORD".

Watch and see.

You are absolutely correct on that, but aren't you also going to bow your knee to him at that time? Interesting that the verse you referred to was talking about Christian judging other Christians.

Rom 14:10-11,

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.​

11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.​

Not that I feel you are judging me or setting me at nought. I just found it interesting.

Do you realize that it was scholars who translated the Bible from Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic into English?

 

[Behold]

Yes, but even with that clarification, it still doesn't give us license to say things that completely defy normal language, grammar, and logic. Before saying that God is somehow above logic, consider John 1:1 and all the other places where we find the Greek word "logos."

God exists above our knowledge, language, grammar, and logic., exactly the same way we exist in TIME< and He exists outside it in eternity.
God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent....and we are not.

We exist within a created universe that has a time frame that borders it, , and God created it as Christ the Word.

We have an eternal spirit, so, in that way we have a real similarity with God, but even this is needing repair, and God as Christ had to come down here to give our spirit a New Birth so that we could rejoin God's Spirit, as Adam had it before He lost this status of a Son.

 

[Rich R]

Have you explained to these Readers that all your answers, or the greater majority, are the product of what you classify as "scholarship" material you are using,...quoting, pasting..... that you didn't write?

You have made this clear to them?

In all of our discussion, there is only one little thing I copied and pasted to save time. I'm surprised you saw that. Or did you see it? What little part did I quote?

Take a guess, and then I'll tell you exactly what it was.

 

[Rich R]

Christ....Praying for what He wants of humans, is not quite the same as being in Heaven, as the Living Bread come down who said "I and my Father are One".

Paul always wanted all believers to come to one Union of Mind, of Faith.

So, when a person is born again, they become ONE with God...... so, there is that "one".

"One body of Christ". "One BRIDE of Christ".

Jesus was ONE with God, before He came down here.

"Let US make man in OUR Image".

See the "US and OUR".. That is God the Father, Christ the pre-incarnate Word, and the Holy Spirit.

Well, Jesus specifically said he wanted us to be one with them.

 

[Behold]

You are absolutely correct on that, but aren't you also going to bow your knee to him at that time? Interesting that the verse you referred to was talking about Christian judging other Christians.

Actually that verse is not related to judging other believers or the bema seat of Christ.

Believers, are absolutely to judge other's who say they are believers, as this judgment, is a discernment, or.. ."he that is spiritual judges all things", and we are told to use our spiritual discernment towards everything, all situations, including "you shall know them by their Fruit".
To "know them" by their fruit, is to judge them according to the Truth that is in the born again, who is Jesus.. John 14:9
We are also to judge "them" by the Holy Scriptures, and mostly by Paul's Doctrines.

 

[Behold]

In all of our discussion, there is only one little thing I copied and pasted to save time. I'm surprised you saw that. Or did you see it? What little part did I quote?
Take a guess, and then I'll tell you exactly what it was.

Thank you for not denying that what you post, isn't what you originally created.
It is from other's whom you classify as "scholarship".
I know this, but there are some here who might be led to believe that what you are arguing, is your material.
We both know the answer to that.....so, there it is.
I dont have any issue with someone copying websites, and using their "Library"., but, its good to make that known, as otherwise it can be misunderstood as you.

Now, you might say...>"but you use others material".
And i do not.
I use the NT, and something called "Golden Verses", that is a "Messianic" edition .
I dont use any commentaries, or anything like that..
I never use anyone else's material., other then Paul's or one of the Epistles as my source, if the Thread is Bible related.
Ive over 6000 posts and over 300 Threads, and none have a quote from some other person's material, if the Thread is Bible related.

 

[Rich R]

God exists above our knowledge, language, grammar, and logic., exactly the same way we exist in TIME< and He exists outside it in eternity.
God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent....and we are not.

We exist within a created universe that has a time frame that borders it, , and God created it as Christ the Word.

We have an eternal spirit, so, in that way we have a real similarity with God, but even this is needing repair, and God as Christ had to come down here to give our spirit a New Birth so that we could rejoin God's Spirit, as Adam had it before He lost this status of a Son.

Why do you suppose God didn't know if Abraham would sacrifice Isaac until the knife was ready to puncture his chest?

Gen 22:12,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
​

Apparently God didn't know for sure what Abraham would do until that moment. There are other places where God says thing like, "perhaps they will repent..." "Perhaps" indicates doubt. Why do you suppose God was disappointed at times when Israel didn't do what He wanted them to do? If He knew they wouldn't do such and such a thing, why would He bother to tell them to do it.

The who idea of omniscience is yet another product of tradition. It's certainly not scriptural.

I'd like to be clear that I love you as a brother despite our differences. I'm serious about that. I thank God for your life and stand on what you know from His word. You are a rare bird indeed, my brother!

 

[Rich R]

Actually that verse is not related to judging other believers or the bema seat of Christ.

Believers, are absolutely to judge other's who say they are believers, as this judgment, is a discernment, or.. ."he that is spiritual judges all things", and we are told to use our spiritual discernment towards everything, all situations, including "you shall know them by their Fruit".
To "know them" by their fruit, is to judge them according to the Truth that is in the born again, who is Jesus.. John 14:9
We are also to judge "them" by the Holy Scriptures, and mostly by Paul's Doctrines.

True enough! It's pretty hard to get into the real meat of the scriptures in a discussion such as take place in these forums. I think we all often just scratch the surface here.

Just from our discussion I really have no idea of your fruit, but I trust it is just fine. I would have to know you and hang out with you for some time before I could say anything different. You being in Israel and me being in California prevents such a personal relationship, so I just assume you are a wonderful son of God. That ought to be enough for any of us!

 

[Behold]

Why do you suppose God didn't know if Abraham would sacrifice Isaac until the knife was ready to puncture his chest?

RichR,

God did know, as God's foreknowledge, knows it all.

He knows what you are THINKING right now. He knows what you are about to POST next.

God Knew that Jesus would go to the Cross, while Jesus was. yet asking Him to let the "cup" pass.

The entire Bible is progressive revelation, that reveals what God knew is going to happen next that is written down.

Even our very LIVES, ......God knows when you are going to die, and how.....and me also.

There is nothing Hidden from God.....He has seen it all right to the end of the Bible, the Age, .....everything.

This ability to read minds , and the "innermost Thoughts", is what Jesus did many times..
Jesus foretold the FUTURE as GOD has that POWER.
HE told the woman at the well, "Yes, you've had 5 Husbands and the one you are with now is not your Husband".

That is GOD, knowing that, exactly as God knows that im going to leave this conversation for now..... as its late in Israel, and i have to get up early to go to the Gym.

And God knew that before i was born.....

 

[Rich R]

Thank you for not denying that what you post, isn't what you originally created.
It is from other's whom you classify as "scholarship".
I know this, but there are some here who might be led to believe that what you are arguing, is your material.
We both know the answer to that.....so, there it is.
I dont have any issue with someone copying websites, and using their "Library"., but, its good to make that known, as otherwise it can be misunderstood as you.

Now, you might say...>"but you use others material".
And i do not.
I use the NT, and something called "Golden Verses", that is a Messianic Bible.

I dont use any commentaries, or anything like that..
I never use anyone else's material., other then Pauls or one of the Epistles as my source.
Ive over 6000 posts and over 300 Threads, and none have a quote from some other person's material.

While you may not consciously use other people's material, I dare say that if anyone who read nothing but the scriptures would conclude that Jesus is God. I think you got that idea because everybody already knows that Jesus is God before ever cracking the book. The idea, as false as it is, is in the very air we breath. Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth.

 

[Rich R]

RichR,

God did know, as God's foreknowledge, knows it all.

Despite the clear statement that God only knew Abraham would obey until the one moment and not before, you still want to interject a preconceived idea. How does that verse not say God didn't know until that moment?

He knows what you are THINKING right now. He knows what you are about to POST next.

God Knew that Jesus would go to the Cross, while Jesus was. yet asking Him to let the "cup" pass.

The entire Bible is progressive revelation, that reveals what God knew is going to happen next that is written down.

Even our very LIVES, ......God knows when you are going to die, and how.....and me also.

There is nothing Hidden from God.....He has seen it all right to the end of the Bible, the Age, .....everything.

This ability to read minds , and the "innermost Thoughts", is what Jesus did many times..
HE told the woman at the well, "Yes, you've had 5 Husbands and the one you are with now is not your Husband".

That is GOD, knowing that, exactly as God knows that im going to leave this conversation for now..... as its late in Israel, and i have to get up early to go to the Gym.

And God know that before i was born.....

So you think I really don't have the free will to write what I write? I'm somehow destined to write what God already knows I'll write. So much for choices I guess. What a droll life that would be!

Good night...

 

[APAK]

How can this be?

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in thebosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Why is the verse saying “God the father”?

If only the father is God why give such a description?

why not just God?
Or just the father?

Well it's important that God is the Father only theefaith so as to point out to us that his Spirit is different from his Son. And that the Son's spirit is so intertwined or embraces by his Father, so close and joined to his Father that he knows him, his word, intent, and purpose and plans. Therefore the Son is fully qualified to reveal him and share his will to and with us.

 

[APAK]

why are you supposedly a new covenant Christian stuck in mosaic covenant faith and practices?
Old creation faith and practices when Christ established the new covenant faith and practices new creation!

Actually I'm not stuck in any Mosaic 'Old' Testament. I believe I as you, through the good graces of God the Father in his Son. The Old Covenant practitioners never really did believe in salvation through faith in Christ. Only a few were exceptions.

You know the basis for Christ's arrival in this world was presented in the OT and we should know the OT and its scripture clearly. It gives us a beneficial wider view as to why and how grace came to us and why God's Son was born and died for our benefit.

 

[The Learner]

start at Jun 27, 2022#1

 

[Kermos]

Right, dream on, as @Rich R already said. Jack will move names and relationships around in a verse or two and call it good. And he will keep judging others in sheer ignorance and who are not of his cloth with direct edicts of fire and brimstone and hellfire.


Trinitarians will always struggle with scripture because they, as you have said many times, try to superimpose their Triune god doctrine into scripture and then onto others, especially Unitarians. And it never truly works because the verses they choose as a 'study' do not jive or harmonize with others when a rigorous comparison and test is made. And don't even bring up contextual study in verses. That concept is really alien for them. It is much easier for them just to verse pick at will.


I think @Jack falls nicely into the same school of non-thought as @Kermos and @theefaith. And Jack might have been set back a class or two because all I hear from him lately are canned marquee-type message posts or responses, like no one is home, or is out to lunch.

Being wrongly accused of non-thought all the while your lack of evidence of non-thought - it's all very telling about you because you wickedly think there are impossible things for God, yet Jesus declares all things are possible with God (Matthew 19:26) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] in post #636 in this thread). According to your thoughts, you do not believe Jesus.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).