John Wesley on the modern gospel

[Prentis]

'In the meantime what we are afraid of is this: lest any should use the phrase, "the righteousness of Christ", or, "the righteousness of Christ is imputed to me," as a cover for his unrighteousness. Warn them against making void that solemn decree of God, "without holiness no man shall see the Lord", by vain imagination of being holy in Christ. O warn them that if they remain unrighteous, the righteousness of Christ will profit them nothing.'

This warns against a gospel without power, that is in 'vain imagination' and not in reality as he says. The true gospel results in the transformation of the one who enters it.

Spot on! And exactly what is so often preached today...

 

[JohnnyB]

Good quote, Prentis!
We can tell ourseves not to live by the flesh, but if you have the mindset that it really isn't going to affect my eternal destiny people will quickly give into the flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

Good OP subject!

 

[IanLC]

Our Call will take us into the land, but Holiness will sustain us in the land! Holiness is a command of God it's His essence and likeness!

 

[Episkopos]

Our Call will take us into the land, but Holiness will sustain us in the land! Holiness is a command of God it's His essence and likeness!

At the risk of using a religious sounding cliché...yeppurs!

 

[Kidron]

I always liked John Wesley.
He had a real zeal to reach the lost, and his brother Charles was quite the proficient song-smith...
Unfortunately, some of J. Wesley's theology is very self-righteous and tends to want to give credit for Salvation to "works" instead of to "Christ alone".

Here is a verse that J. Wesley would have been served well to have memorized.


1st Corinthians 1:30.....

"But of him are YOU in Christ Jesus, who is MADE UNTO US Wisdom, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SACNTIFICATION, and Redemption".

Now, do you see what God through Christ has done for you FREELY, without needing any of your Works?
See it?
If not, read it a few hundred times until it sinks in and sticks.


When you see John Wesley, remind him to read it.
(but be nice)


K

 

[HammerStone]

Well, I know the relationship of the agenda (probably too harsh a term, but I know this stems from some other topics, so let's be honest about that, mutually) to the quote here, but allow me to point out that while John Wesley believed we could be sanctified to the point that we do not sin willingly, he still believed that we could sin.

Part I - On Sin in Believers

5. To avoid this extreme, many well-meaning men, particularly those under the direction of the late Count Zinzendorf, ran into another; affirming, that "all true believers are not only saved from the dominion of sin, but from the being of inward as well as outward sin, so that it no longer remains in them:" And from them, about twenty years ago, many of our countrymen imbibed the same opinion, that even the corruption of nature is no more, in those who believe in Christ.

6. It is true that, when the Germans were pressed upon this head, they soon allowed, (many of them at least,) that "sin did still remain in the flesh, but not in the heart of a believer;" and, after a time, when the absurdity of this was shown, they fairly gave up the point; allowing that sin did still remain, though not reign, in him that is born of God.

7. But the English, who had received it from them, (some directly, some at second or third hand,) were not so easily prevailed upon to part with a favourite opinion: And even when the generality of them were convinced it was utterly indefensible, a few could not be persuaded to give it up, but maintain it to this day.

Part III - On Sin in Believers

1. "But was he not then freed from all sin, so that there is no sin in his heart?" I cannot say this; I cannot believe it; because St. Paul says the contrary. He is speaking to believers, and describing the state of believers in general, when he says, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: These are contrary the one to the other." (Gal. 5:17) Nothing can be more express. The Apostle here directly affirms that the flesh, evil nature, opposes the Spirit, even in believers; that even in the regenerate there are two principles, "contrary the one to the other."

So yes, we do enter a transformation of mind and heart when we are in Jesus. Legally speaking, we are justified by Jesus as well. However, this is a lifelong process, and Wesley recognized that we did not enter into a completely sinless state, that we were being transformed like the Apostle Paul said, but that we also now see only in part, with the whole sight to come, as the Apostle Paul also says.

 

[Prentis]

Well, I know the relationship of the agenda (probably too harsh a term, but I know this stems from some other topics, so let's be honest about that, mutually) to the quote here, but allow me to point out that while John Wesley believed we could be sanctified to the point that we do not sin willingly, he still believed that we could sin.





So yes, we do enter a transformation of mind and heart when we are in Jesus. Legally speaking, we are justified by Jesus as well. However, this is a lifelong process, and Wesley recognized that we did not enter into a completely sinless state, that we were being transformed like the Apostle Paul said, but that we also now see only in part, with the whole sight to come, as the Apostle Paul also says.

I do agree it is wrong to go to the other extreme, to disregard anyone who hasn't attained and does not walk like Christ... If we do, we might as well dismiss Paul's letter to the Philippians ('I have not yet attained'). But to make this standard and calling impossible is as much in error... Impossible to man, yes, but not impossible for God to accomplish in us ('It is not longer I who lives...'). On the one hand, some reject true brothers because 'they have not yet attained'. This is wrong. But it is almost childish... It stems from immaturity.

But the error more prevalent today is to diminish the standard of Christ. Christ calls us to be as he is. Anything less and we have not yet attained.

To diminish this... To claim such a place does not exist... To discourage those who would seek after God for such a life... Is to make ourselves enemies of the gospel, because then we are short-circuiting the purpose of the gospel. If we tell men, in preaching, in sharing, that it is not necessary... Then we are like Peter when he told Christ he did not have to go to the cross. This is when Jesus called him Satan. It is the devil who whispers 'you don't have to die'. But we must. The cross is necessary if we are to call ourselves Christians and honor the Master.

If we truly follow him all the way to the cross, and are crucified with him, we will also be resurrected in the same life as him. Then we walk as he walks, and we know him. The purpose is that we would arrive to Romans 8, and not stop short, so that we would truly be free.

To preach that we have arrived when we are still at Romans 7 is the great danger of the modern church. By this, men make themselves enemies of the cross.

 

[HammerStone]

That's the problem though, the claims I am seeing around here are very much: I have not sinned! I am not sinning!

We are made perfect (brought to maturity) in Christ Jesus (Colossians 1:28). The reality that can also be missed just as easily is that we are not made perfection ourselves. Jesus is the only perfect one, and by his completed work, we are made perfect from an essentially legal perspective. The key caveat is not that we ourselves become without fault, that is instead an ongoing process that will culminate, but for now, we see only in part (I Corinthians 13:9-12). The old man is dead yes, but the flesh body continues to sin, and this is why Paul wrote about the epic struggle in Romans 7. The struggle between the spiritual and physical still endures for the believer. Recall that Jesus said for us to take up our cross daily.

The fact is, we are called to an impossible standard made possible by Jesus. I don't want to mislead new believers into this false notion that everything goes perfect after you become a Christian.

This position does not acknowledge the ambiguity of I John 1:7-10:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Where Satan is at work is where people say I have no sin. Note that our sins are forgiven and made clean by the blood. So no, it's not a matter of not preaching the cross (you seem to have your issues crossed a bit here), but an issue of preaching that we are only made perfect through Christ. It's not in our capacity to do away with our flesh. We are not to walk around proclaiming our sinlessness, we are to walk around proclaiming the gospel of Jesus' sinlessness and His forgiveness. I am made perfect because He is perfect.

 

[Episkopos]

I do agree it is wrong to go to the other extreme, to disregard anyone who hasn't attained and does not walk like Christ... If we do, we might as well dismiss Paul's letter to the Philippians ('I have not yet attained'). But to make this standard and calling impossible is as much in error... Impossible to man, yes, but not impossible for God to accomplish in us ('It is not longer I who lives...'). On the one hand, some reject true brothers because 'they have not yet attained'. This is wrong. But it is almost childish... It stems from immaturity.

But the error more prevalent today is to diminish the standard of Christ. Christ calls us to be as he is. Anything less and we have not yet attained.

To diminish this... To claim such a place does not exist... To discourage those who would seek after God for such a life... Is to make ourselves enemies of the gospel, because then we are short-circuiting the purpose of the gospel. If we tell men, in preaching, in sharing, that it is not necessary... Then we are like Peter when he told Christ he did not have to go to the cross. This is when Jesus called him Satan. It is the devil who whispers 'you don't have to die'. But we must. The cross is necessary if we are to call ourselves Christians and honor the Master.

If we truly follow him all the way to the cross, and are crucified with him, we will also be resurrected in the same life as him. Then we walk as he walks, and we know him. The purpose is that we would arrive to Romans 8, and not stop short, so that we would truly be free.

To preach that we have arrived when we are still at Romans 7 is the great danger of the modern church. By this, men make themselves enemies of the cross.

Very well put!!

 

[Prentis]

That's the problem though, the claims I am seeing around here are very much: I have not sinned! I am not sinning!

I think many here are misunderstood. Evangelical thinking often confuses 'we can cease from sin and walk as he walked' with 'I have never sinned and always walk as he walked'. It seems to me to be a defense mechanism.

I have not witnessed many such claims, and have not made them myself. I claim that we must aim to attain the full stature of Christ, which is to be as he is. If you are reacting to something posted by someone else, claims that do not seem true to you, I do not understand why it is being brought to this thread where such claims were never made, but the standard of Christ was simply upheld. Why? Honest question!

We are made perfect (brought to maturity) in Christ Jesus (Colossians 1:28). The reality that can also be missed just as easily is that we are not made perfection ourselves. Jesus is the only perfect one, and by his completed work, we are made perfect from an essentially legal perspective. The key caveat is not that we ourselves become without fault, that is instead an ongoing process that will culminate, but for now, we see only in part (I Corinthians 13:9-12).

This is where evangelicalism goes down a very dangerous path, and where John Wesley is warning us. God is not absolving us legally of the punishment of sin and counting us righteous all the while leaving us to be, in reality, still slaves to sin. The message of the gospel is opposite to this. God desires to make us blameless... To make us like him, in reality.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have a good example here of the way evangelicalism is; it uses the right words, goes a certain length, but arriving at the end of the gospel (and in a sense the beginning), the cross, everything is short-circuited. The power of the cross to actually remove the old man from power, to actually kill him rendering him powerless, that Christ might live through us, is then denied. It is like leading a person on a path, and at the last second, before arriving at it's end, turning sharply to the right or to the left. This is what men do with the cross, thus claiming the promises but rejecting the death.

The old man is dead yes, but the flesh body continues to sin, and this is why Paul wrote about the epic struggle in Romans 7. The struggle between the spiritual and physical still endures for the believer. Recall that Jesus said for us to take up our cross daily.

This is in direct contradiction with what the New Testament proclaims.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

These things are worlds apart. The struggle can indeed endure for a time within the believer, but the end of our faith is deliverance. The struggle happens because we have not yet understood and fully experienced what it is to go to the cross and truly die with Christ, not because Christ's power is lacking. The struggle endures because we are not yet empty that he would fill us, NOT because he is unable to fill us to overflowing.

The fact is, we are called to an impossible standard made possible by Jesus. I don't want to mislead new believers into this false notion that everything goes perfect after you become a Christian.

Do you really believe this standard is to be fulfilled in us? Your words seem to say otherwise. It is far different to believe that God counts it 'as if' we fulfilled this impossible-made-possible standard, and to believe that by the power of Christ we truly fulfill it.

I have not seen anyone here saying everything goes nicely once you become a Christian. The opposite is being done; we proclaim that once we are converted and have tasted of God's life, we must go to the cross, that we might die, and he might truly live through us, in power... As he did through the saints.

This position does not acknowledge the ambiguity of I John 1:7-10:

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If we say we have not sinned, we are indeed liars, because we are all born in sin and have all fallen short. But if we say we abide in him and yet we sin, we lie also, according to John. John is not contradicting himself, as some suggest.

John also says 'if any of you sin'. I am in no way denying that there is such a thing as a christian sinning. I have not attained, and fall short still. But the true issue here is the standard. Many bring down the standard to how far they have gone.

Where Satan is at work is where people say I have no sin. Note that our sins are forgiven and made clean by the blood. So no, it's not a matter of not preaching the cross (you seem to have your issues crossed a bit here), but an issue of preaching that we are only made perfect through Christ. It's not in our capacity to do away with our flesh. We are not to walk around proclaiming our sinlessness, we are to walk around proclaiming the gospel of Jesus' sinlessness and His forgiveness. I am made perfect because He is perfect.

Satan is at work where people do not believe any longer in the standard of the full stature of Christ, and are turned to fables, claiming a righteousness above man's (Christ's righteousness) without actually walking in it and experiencing it. Again, there is an issue with those who proclaim there own sinlessness... If we are truly walking in such a place, we would not be talking about ourselves, but about the life that is available in Christ. But we would be upholding the same standard of holiness, and calling men to walk in it.

I fear you are seeing something that is not being done... No one here is boasting in sinlessness. I am not claiming to have attained... We are speaking here of the power and the new life that is available in Christ Jesus.

 

[justaname]

So I will be so bold to ask, does anyone not sin any longer? I am not asking if it is possible, I am asking if anyone personally has stopped sinning all together.

Personally I still sin. Not because I want to, nor because I am a slave to it, but because it happens. It happens in my thought life, use of words, and actions. Look I am just being honest here, "walking in the light." I can only pray that I stop altogether, but that has not happened yet. I have a heart of repentance, a renewed mind, a transformed life, a confessing tongue, a believing heart, and l still fail sometimes when it comes to sin. By which I claim all responsibility.

Let me think of sins of omission, guilty!
Let me think of pride, guilty!
Let me think of selfishness, guilty! Do I need to go on?

Do I deny the gospel? Never! He who is in me is greater than he who is in the world! 1John 4:4

I do believe I am being transformed, through a process. My life then compared to my life now, wow!
I suppose the true question is when will I see the completion of the process? Is that up to me or God?

I am no longer captive to sin; my freedom is in bondage to Christ.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Now to think that any righteousness that is done through me is actually prepared beforehand by God. It is His righteousness and not my own, thereby we are His righteousness and His workmanship.

This is taken from the Bible Knowledge Commentary

In the clause, which God prepared in advance for us to do, the word “which” refers back to the “works” in the previous clause. “For us to do” is literally “in order that we might walk in them.” The purpose of these prepared-in-advance works is not “to work in them” but “to walk in them.” In other words, God has prepared a path of good works for believers which He will perform in and through them as they walk by faith. This does not mean doing a work for God; instead, it is God’s performing His work in and through believers (cf. Phil. 2:13). This path of good works is discussed by Paul in Ephesians 4-6.
In conclusion, 2:1-10 demonstrates that though people were spiritually dead and deserving only God’s wrath, God, in His marvelous grace, has provided salvation through faith. Believers are God’s workmanship in whom and through whom He performs good works.

 

[aspen]

I do not love perfectly, therefore I still sin.

 

[HammerStone]

I think many here are misunderstood. Evangelical thinking often confuses 'we can cease from sin and walk as he walked' with 'I have never sinned and always walk as he walked'. It seems to me to be a defense mechanism.

I fear you are seeing something that is not being done... No one here is boasting in sinlessness. I am not claiming to have attained... We are speaking here of the power and the new life that is available in Christ Jesus.

No, I'm positive I'm seeing comments that essentially say "I do not sin." I've seen several comments where people talk about periods of sinlessness in their lives that they fall in and out of. Curiously, they're able to define the period by months or days. I don't see Paul, nor John, nor anyone else in the Bible making these assertions. Now I'll admit you've been less apt to make those sorts of comments, but I see your theology as essentially defending that position.

As far as everything else, I think it's rather clearly addressed by Paul's struggle in the flesh.

Romans 7:21-25 ESV
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

We're still in the flesh, lasted I checked.

 

[Prentis]

No, I'm positive I'm seeing comments that essentially say "I do not sin." I've seen several comments where people talk about periods of sinlessness in their lives that they fall in and out of. Curiously, they're able to define the period by months or days. I don't see Paul, nor John, nor anyone else in the Bible making these assertions. Now I'll admit you've been less apt to make those sorts of comments, but I see your theology as essentially defending that position.

As far as everything else, I think it's rather clearly addressed by Paul's struggle in the flesh.

Romans 7:21-25 ESV
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

We're still in the flesh, lasted I checked.

We are still in the flesh, indeed...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Peter clearly says this 'ceasing from sin' happens while living in the flesh.

To claim that it is impossible (by God's power) to cease from sin while living in the flesh, you have to deny that Christ came in the flesh. Or did he sin? Or was he somehow different? Not tempted as we are?

People usually don't understand the implications of what they say... Or ignore them. If Christ came in the flesh, as we are now, and while in the flesh, lived by the power of God and perfectly holy unto God... Why is it then impossible for us? Are we not called to be as he is? Is the new man not created in true Holiness?

 

[rockytopva]

I have posted a book 30 years out of publication, The Saint of the Wilderness online (http://www.christianforums.com/t7630646/). This is a good story about a true John Wesley Methodist.