If you have judged that they are sinning by believing the lies of the serpent and you don't tell them. Then you don't love them. Those who truly love their brothers and sisters and all human beings will try hard to let them know they are headed for destruction and they need to turn around.
Judgment...
- Thread starter Eltanin
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If you have judged that they are sinning by believing the lies of the serpent and you don't tell them. Then you don't love them. Those who truly love their brothers and sisters and all human beings will try hard to let them know they are headed for destruction and they need to turn around.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
There's argument, coversation, and debate.
Usually I just see two people arguing and it can sink an entire thread. An argument is when two people who don't agree, contend with one another personally about what they believe. A conversation is just two people talking or discussing about a topic. A debate is when two people under predetermined conditions or rules discuss or even argue the point they predetermined.
However what I usually see is 2 people arguing and accusing others of not adhering to a debate format or rules of conversation or etiquette that were assumed but in no case predetermined. You have two people talking on completely different rules or levels of debate, or none at all, just bashing each other. Usually when you say something negative about someone else, you have broken the debate, unless the debate clearly had to do with the person you are bashing, which would have been predetermined and why would someone agree to that (They might, I'm just saying...). Even if what you're saying about someone is completely true, this is a forum of conversation and discussion and even debate, and not a place to attack the moral and biblical character of people you hardly know online. Besides, when you have broken the debate format you didn't start in the first place you pretty much lost already on the foundation of Christian character and what it means to be a Christian on an online debate/discussion forum.
A personal nuisance is when people leave "In Christ" or "In God's love" at the end of a statement to a person they are having an argument with. In case you didn't know, it requires only 1 out of 2 people in a conversation to create an argument or break the rules of a debate and you may have lost any conversation you planned to have, even in a Godly manner. The only bright side to this situation is when the argument is public and the point can't be addressed in a civilized manner. But the point then would be more for the public and less for the 2 people arguing.
Argument itself can be used as a point of contention within a debate, but argument itself is just contention.
Usually I just see two people arguing and it can sink an entire thread. An argument is when two people who don't agree, contend with one another personally about what they believe. A conversation is just two people talking or discussing about a topic. A debate is when two people under predetermined conditions or rules discuss or even argue the point they predetermined.
However what I usually see is 2 people arguing and accusing others of not adhering to a debate format or rules of conversation or etiquette that were assumed but in no case predetermined. You have two people talking on completely different rules or levels of debate, or none at all, just bashing each other. Usually when you say something negative about someone else, you have broken the debate, unless the debate clearly had to do with the person you are bashing, which would have been predetermined and why would someone agree to that (They might, I'm just saying...). Even if what you're saying about someone is completely true, this is a forum of conversation and discussion and even debate, and not a place to attack the moral and biblical character of people you hardly know online. Besides, when you have broken the debate format you didn't start in the first place you pretty much lost already on the foundation of Christian character and what it means to be a Christian on an online debate/discussion forum.
A personal nuisance is when people leave "In Christ" or "In God's love" at the end of a statement to a person they are having an argument with. In case you didn't know, it requires only 1 out of 2 people in a conversation to create an argument or break the rules of a debate and you may have lost any conversation you planned to have, even in a Godly manner. The only bright side to this situation is when the argument is public and the point can't be addressed in a civilized manner. But the point then would be more for the public and less for the 2 people arguing.
Argument itself can be used as a point of contention within a debate, but argument itself is just contention.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Let them perish because you won't tell them the truth?
Apparently you have no confidence in the Holy Spirit.
The Lord Himself rebuke you.
Hmm...would you like to be a bit more dramatic?
Apparently you have no confidence in the Holy Spirit.
The Lord Himself rebuke you.
Hmm...would you like to be a bit more dramatic?
If the Spirit that you are supposed to be walking in is doing all of the work somewhere else outside of you. Then what does he need you for? Have you become altogether worthless in His sight?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Spin it in any way you want, Son - all Christians know that the Holy Spirit is responsible for converting people, not us.
-- Absolutely correct. It all comes down to HOW you tell them.
If you truly share with them out of love and concern, it can open their eyes and their heart.
Even if they do not respond positively, if you have done it in love it is often a seed planted that can be brought to fruition later on via someone else.
To sit back and say, "Oh, the Holy Spirit will take care of it" is the worst possible way to handle it.
You miss an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to use you, and you increase the chance that person will be part of the harvest that is not reached.
-- The Holy Spirit is indeed responsible.
What you seem to miss is that the Holy Spirit speaks to the lost THROUGH Christians to deliver the message that will help the lost to come to Christ.
Please tell me you understand that. Because - if your post is any indicator - that very basic cornerstone of sharing the gospel appears lost on you.
The Holy Spirit works/speaks through the people who are witnessing and sharing the Gospel in love, and then the Spirit stirs that message in the heart of the person who has heard it to draw them to Christ. Sometimes immediately. Sometimes over time after speaking to more than one person.
Why else do you think that Jesus gave the Great Commission to "preach the Gospel to all nations?"
Why would Christians have to preach the Gospel to the unsaved masses if, as you said earlier, "that's the job of the Holy Spirit?"
Paul, Silas, Stephen, Timothy, all went and preached a Gospel of love that was found offensive by many.
It is what the Holy Spirit required and through them being vessels for the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was able to bring many to Christ.
Christianity 101.
Yes, there are baffoons who get in the sinner's face and say "Worthless heathen! Convert or burn in hell!"
But it is quite obvious that the person is acting under their own power and not under the direction or guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And then there's direct rebuke that The Holy Spirit does too...
John The Baptists speaking...
Matt 3:5-10
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(KJV)
John The Baptists speaking...
Matt 3:5-10
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(KJV)
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
No, actually I am well aware that the Holy Spirit works through people to convert other people, but it is still ultimately the power of the Holy Spirit and 'working harder' or being more clever or increasing our level of personal morality is not going to save or damn another person.
36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few.
38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest."
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few.
38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest."
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
I have watched sinners who rejected God and the Bible lead other people to God, because those other's who observed them saw where they could be headed, and the Spirit did Its thing... You don't have to be a Christian to lead others to God, and it doesn't take Scripture...
We have the Bible as a tool, it has become a replacement for the Spirit and for God in many people's eyes. The Bible is just an idol for most Christians anymore...
We can show people what is right by doing what is right... We tell people how to truly be fulfilled, by living a fulfilled life... The Spirit then has the witness It needs to do what It does... You can be this way, or that....
Words are not love... and love is not a sin... real love is determined by action behind it... and real love is Jesus' examole to us...
Love and Faith are both demonstrated through our actions, never our words.
We have the Bible as a tool, it has become a replacement for the Spirit and for God in many people's eyes. The Bible is just an idol for most Christians anymore...
We can show people what is right by doing what is right... We tell people how to truly be fulfilled, by living a fulfilled life... The Spirit then has the witness It needs to do what It does... You can be this way, or that....
Words are not love... and love is not a sin... real love is determined by action behind it... and real love is Jesus' examole to us...
Love and Faith are both demonstrated through our actions, never our words.
-- I am not sure where you came up with "or damn a person."
I have never met a Christian whose goal was to damn an unsaved individual. Isn't that already the case?
But your wording leaves out the part where it isn't just enough to be in proximity of a person and "love them."
You have to actually lovingly share God's words and expectations with them.
Otherwise you leave them to their own preconceived (read: incorrect) understanding of who Jesus is and what He expects.
Your silence as a Christian can cause them to assume that you agree with where they are in their lives and there is nothing to worry about.
If you do not share the actual Gospel with them and lovingly let them know what needs to be done to be saved, you are just best-buddying them to into eternal damnation.
I mention this only because you have said before that you do not share the Gospel with your four gay friends.
Instead, you say, you simply "love them."
Your response when asked why you don't witness to them is, "Show me one homosexual who doesn't know that God condemns homosexuality and I will be glad to talk to them."
But that misses the point...
If that is ALL they know about God (and by default, Christians) then they do not know that He loves them enough to have died for them, wants to give them eternity in Heaven, can heal the pain and rejection they feel (as a human being, not just as a homosexual) and can give them a satisfying and fulfilling life here on earth.
If you are not sharing those facts with them, then you are leaving them in ignorance and helping ensure they will not spend eternity in a pleasant place.
You say you have a burden for homosexuals. And you also say that it is the Holy Spirit that is responsible for drawing a person to Christ.
Did you ever wonder if perhaps that "burden" you have has been put there by the Holy Spirit?
Because if it has, then you need to be doing more than just "proximity loving" them.
They need to hear the Gospel. Not their idea of what it likely says about them, but what it actually DOES say about them - as a human being.
Not just as a homosexual, but as a lost child that Christ loves and longs to see saved.
You are in a unique position to not only commiserate, but educate, in love.
If you are not sharing the Gospel to ensure they are saved, you are simply loving them into the grave.
.
It's hard to say exactly how the Holy Spirit works, and it's easy to put him in a box. It can be tricky because you have no idea who is going to be saved, but at the same time you're called to be a witness toward salvation, and what we do and say actually has an effect on whether someone does or does not receive judgment. We are intercessors and types of Christ and the Holy Spirit works that in us just like it did Christ. Now your ministry may not be evangelistic in nature, but we are all called to evangelize. How we evangelize, is a strange contrast between exactly what Foreigner and Eltanin said directly above me. Think about Salvation as 2 different roads, one that we all have alone until we all reach the same road once we encounter Jesus and are saved. So each person has his own road before salvation and you hope it will eventually lead to Christ and his road. Now on that road to salvation we all play a different part to non believers, exactly where we're placed on someone elses path to finally meeting Jesus and being saved. The easiest to note and the most glorified position is the person who actually welcomes them through the door in the physical, usually the evangelist but no one person actually has to have that position, because spiritually as you note it belongs to the Holy Spirit. But we never know exactly what role we play in someone else' salvation. And I start back with my original point. It's hard to say exactly how the Holy Spirit works. So I can't really knock someone who doesn't strictly evangelize and pass out Bibles if they live their life out in a Holy and God fearing manner, though I'm not ever going to discourage evangelism unless its done in a way that murders the presentation of the gospel. I do believe evangelism can be harmful to a soon to be Christian non believer if done incorrectly. Sure, the gospel never returns void, but that doesn't mean what it returns is always good, though it will all lead to that direction at some point. The gospel can pull out the deepest anxieties, anger, and sin in anyone listening to it, and depending on how it is received, it can actually turn people off and then there is a hardening, after which people may succumb to a worse life of sin after they heard it.
It's interesting that our presentation has an effect on how people receive the gospel. So I don't preach that all evangelism is right, however I will never go up to someone and say stop evangelizing because I never know how the Holy Spirit is working in someone else's life and through their evangelism even if say, in my flesh, I'm disagreeing with the how of their works. There are so many different elements to each person's salvation, and in the end, if we are each being obedient to what the Holy Spirit is leading us to do in accordance to the Holy Scripture, then we can stand in confidence, against even other Christians who persecute our own method(s) of evangelizing.
I guess for scriptural reference use Jesus and his ministry. Say there were 100 people sick around Jesus, he might heal just one, and how he did it was always different. It's about timing and it's about obedience to the Holy Spirit's timing and working in someone else' life. Oh and catching fish of course is a great analogy and scriptural too. The tricks of the trade, and how shrewdness can play a part and preparation. All really cool. Never hurts to start out with the law if you take a street "The Way of the Master" approach.
It's interesting that our presentation has an effect on how people receive the gospel. So I don't preach that all evangelism is right, however I will never go up to someone and say stop evangelizing because I never know how the Holy Spirit is working in someone else's life and through their evangelism even if say, in my flesh, I'm disagreeing with the how of their works. There are so many different elements to each person's salvation, and in the end, if we are each being obedient to what the Holy Spirit is leading us to do in accordance to the Holy Scripture, then we can stand in confidence, against even other Christians who persecute our own method(s) of evangelizing.
I guess for scriptural reference use Jesus and his ministry. Say there were 100 people sick around Jesus, he might heal just one, and how he did it was always different. It's about timing and it's about obedience to the Holy Spirit's timing and working in someone else' life. Oh and catching fish of course is a great analogy and scriptural too. The tricks of the trade, and how shrewdness can play a part and preparation. All really cool. Never hurts to start out with the law if you take a street "The Way of the Master" approach.
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