KJV Dispute (Split from "Biblical "Women" in the Eyes of God")

[whirlwind]

Jeremiah 50:37 (Complete Jewish Bible): "... they will become like women."
Nahum 3:13 (Complete Jewish Bible): "Look at your troops! They behave like women!"

So, what do these Prophets mean by "like women"?

Jeremiah 50:37 (NIV): "They will become weaklings."
Nahum 3:13 (NIV): "Look at your troops — they are all weaklings."

Thank you for your reply but...as women are NOT weaklings and as women prove to be strong soliders...I think you need to discard your references for truth found in the KJV. Your understanding of what "these Prophets mean" is not God's meaning:

 

[Dodo_David]

Thank you for your reply but...as women are NOT weaklings and as women prove to be strong soliders...I think you need to discard your references for truth found in the KJV. Your understanding of what "these Prophets mean" is not God's meaning:

The KJV is not the standard for comparison.

I will cite an excerpt from this site's Bible Version Statement.

We frequently use and considered the following versions, so we feel quite safe recommending them (they are listed in no particular order): Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB or CSB), New King James Version (NKJV), English Standard Version (ESV), New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), New American Standard Bible (NASB or NASV), King James Version (KJV) and the New Living Translation (NLT). These Bibles all provide slightly different English perspective on the truth of Holy Scripture, even though they all have varying strengths and weaknesses. In fact, we recommend owning at least three of them (or using internet resources) to consult a variety of renderings on a certain text.

Do not mistake the abundance of translations for errors or disagreement on major Christian beliefs. In fact, we confidently assert (along with many, many others) that all of the above versions offer no major deviation on essential Christian doctrines. The misunderstanding comes in how we read and apply verses, but that is topic for another day.

 

[whirlwind]

The KJV is not the standard for comparison.

I will cite an excerpt from this site's Bible Version Statement.

The KJV is The Holy Bible. As you have shown when using other translations one can drift off into man's understanding and totally lose God's meaning. All done in the name of making it easier to understand.

 

[Dodo_David]

The KJV is The Holy Bible.

The KJV is one of several English translations of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. The latter are the standard for comparison, not the former.

Besides, why would you insist that I use the KJV, when in another thread you cite Young's Literal Translation?

 

[whirlwind]

The KJV is one of several English translations of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. The latter are the standard for comparison, not the former.

Besides, why would you insist that I use the KJV, when in another thread you cite Young's Literal Translation?

The King James is The Holy Bible and I believe has God's stamp of approval for those of us unable to understand Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. If I ever have a question on translations I refer to E.W. Bullinger who gives notes in the KJ Companion Bible and the Strong's Concordance. If I still have questions I refer to the Young's Literal.

I do not trust the others. There have been too many occasions where the meaning is totally destroyed by the new and improved versions.

 

[Dodo_David]

As I said before, the KJV is an English Version of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, and the latter are the standards for comparison.

The KJV is not the creation of the writers of the Old and New Testaments. Those people wrote in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Koiné Greek, not 17th-Century English.

 

[Purity]

The King James is The Holy Bible and I believe has God's stamp of approval for those of us unable to understand Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. If I ever have a question on translations I refer to E.W. Bullinger who gives notes in the KJ Companion Bible and the Strong's Concordance. If I still have questions I refer to the Young's Literal.

I do not trust the others. There have been too many occasions where the meaning is totally destroyed by the new and improved versions.

Do you know how many Greek MSS were used in 1611 to translate the KJV?
Do you know how many Greek MSS were used in 1881 to translate the RV?
Do you know how many Greek MSS were used in 2005 to translate the NET?

The answer should provide some perspective to your comments / beliefs above :)

Thank you for your reply but...as women are NOT weaklings and as women prove to be strong soliders...I think you need to discard your references for truth found in the KJV. Your understanding of what "these Prophets mean" is not God's meaning:

Its an admirable quality to edify women and speaking as a man who has studied extensively "women of the Bible", I can say they posses strength at times that men fail to find. Having said that they are the weaker vessel and often used as a symbol of weakness in the Bible for obvious reasons.

 

[FHII]

Its an admirable quality to edify women and speaking as a man who has studied extensively "women of the Bible", I can say they posses strength at times that men fail to find. Having said that they are the weaker vessel and often used as a symbol of weakness in the Bible for obvious reasons.

Gotta give that a big amen. Even taking it to a spiritual level where the Body of Christ -- New Jerusalem -- is the bride of Christ. Yes, the weaker vessel but still stronger then men (1 Cor 1:25)

 

[Purity]

Do you know how many Greek MSS were used in 1611 to translate the KJV? 6
Do you know how many Greek MSS were used in 1881 to translate the RV? 2,000
Do you know how many Greek MSS were used in 2005 to translate the NET? 5,700

Believers today must be careful not to get caught up in the "fundamentalist" mindset and accept the translations today (not all) by most, have greater accuracy than the original 1611 AV.

To assist those who are looking for tools to enhance their study methodologies the following may be of use:

•Marginal notes in English translations (NKJV, ESV, NASB) can be helpful

–E.g. Matt 17:21 is excluded in ESV:

•“4Some manuscripts insert verse 21: “but this kind comes out by prayer and fasting”

•NET Bible (https://bible.org/netbible/)

–Useful textual notes - See

•E.g. Matthew 1:7 tn note:

•Textual Commentaries

–Metzger, B. A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament
–Comfort, P. W. New Testament Text and Translation Commentary

Should any of the forum participants like further helpful references by all means ask.

Purity.

Gotta give that a big amen. Even taking it to a spiritual level where the Body of Christ -- New Jerusalem -- is the bride of Christ. Yes, the weaker vessel but still stronger then men (1 Cor 1:25)

As in the natural so in the spiritual - good reference FH!!

 

[Dodo_David]

It is begging the question to claim that the KJV is superior to all other English versions of the Bible.

 

[whirlwind]

It is begging the question to claim that the KJV is superior to all other English versions of the Bible.

Question answered...it is. :)

 

[ccfromsc]

A KJV ONLYite. Lord save us all! I will bite.... so why is the KJV THE only version? :wacko:

 

[Purity]

Question answered...it is. :)

The nostalgia of KJV (old English language) has certainly enticed many a man & woman to remain loyal over its modern counterparts. You would be unwise not use other works for greater clarity and insight, a combination I suggest.

E.g.

And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? AV

Whirlwind might like to translate this please :)

 

[mjrhealth]

Gods Stamp of aproval????? Where ?????

In all His Love

 

[whirlwind]

The nostalgia of KJV (old English language) has certainly enticed many a man & woman to remain loyal over its modern counterparts. You would be unwise not use other works for greater clarity and insight, a combination I suggest.

E.g.

And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? AV

Whirlwind might like to translate this please :)

LOL It isn't the nostalgia although there is great poetic beauty in the play of words in the KJV. Rather it is that the words are most closely translated from the text. There have been many times that the change of words, to make the reading easier in the new translations, where the meaning is changed...totally changed. And, in using the KJV one is able to refer to the Strong's Concordance to see the original meaning....as is necessary to understand the passage you asked about.


Ezekiel 13:15-16 Thus will I accomplish My wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord God.


The false prophets, those that see visions of peace when there is no peace....will be NO MORE. Jesus Christ is our Peace. Those that falsely prophesy of Christ when it is Satan they are teaching of will be...NO MORE. They teach of rapture, a false peace, a false safety!

Now we come to a mistranslation in the KJV but one that can be cleared up by taking the word "daughters" and "women that sew" to their meaning as given in the Strong's Concordance:

Daughters #1121 ben - a son, a builder of the family name, grandson, subject, etc....... And, the list continues with one, only one, word showing the female gender in all the choices of #1121....daughter.


13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,


The verse is a continuation of the preceding verses...we, as the son of man, are to teach against these false prophets which are (in 13:17)mistakenly referred to as "daughters." Why did that happen? Because of the following where "sew pillows" comes into play.


13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?


There is no Strong's description for "women" but they are the same "daughters" that are false prophets. The female gender was incorrectly applied by the translators because of sewing pillows.

The pillows sewn by false prophets is #3704, taken from #3680 - to plump, fill up hollows; to cover (for clothing or secrecy, conceal, cover (self), (flee to) hide, overwhelm

The false prophets fashion, through their lies, secrecy (rapture) that conceals truth, covering the "armholes" to not allow God's saving grace to reach them. They "hunt souls" through deception.


13:19-20 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies? Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.


To make them fly....be raptured....lies by the false prophets.

 

[Purity]

[SIZE=9pt]An admirable attempt but the ESV & RV correctly interpreted this section of Scripture. The out-dated Strongs couldn't help you here either. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]18 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the women who sew magic bands upon all wrists, and make veils for the heads of persons of every stature[/SIZE], in the hunt for souls! Will you hunt down souls belonging to my people and keep your own souls alive?

[SIZE=9pt]There is a twofold oracle in Ezek 13:17which undeniably enters into a sphere of minor mantic acts and magic—a sphere which can only be put quite improperly under the catchword “prophetic.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]13:17 [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]“As for you, son of man, turn *toward the daughters of your people who are prophesying from their imagination. NET :)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]*[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]tnhttp://biblia.com/books/gs-netbible/Eze13.17http://biblia.com/books/gs-netbible/Eze13.17[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] Heb “set your face against.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]The Law:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Duet 18:9 [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, you must not learn the abhorrent practices of those nations. 18:10 There must never be found among you anyone who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire,12[/SIZE] anyone who practices divination,13 an omen reader,14 a soothsayer,15 a sorcerer,16

[SIZE=9pt]This passage sets this mantic activity in opposition to the “prophets” ([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]נביא[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]) given to Israel, as a Canaanite counterpart, even in its terminology. When we examine the perspective which enables Ezekiel to set these lesser activities under the catchword “prophetic,” then it is clearly the case that here also powers were employed which mediated “life” and “death.” Just as the word of the prophet legitimately gives death (See Ezek 11:13) and life (See Ezek 37:4), so, in the activity of these women of Israel ([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]המתנבאות מלבהן[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] See Ezek 13:17), death and life were dispensed in an unauthorized manner, and so Yahweh’s dominion was infringed upon. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Ezek 13:18 In details much that is described here remains obscure in its exposition. The first saying, found in parallel to Ezek 13:3 as a [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]הוי[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] cry, describes the women who give their oracle for the small payment of a couple of handfuls of barley and some pieces of bread. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Barley and bread refer to the materials for magical practice, supporting this by references to barley (See Numbers 5:15 and pieces of bread in Lev 2:5 as elements of sacrifice, and by the Greek ἀλφιτομαντεία and χριθομαντεία. However, more correctly, we must point here to the analogy of 1 Sam 9:7 according to which a seer gives his oracle for a small payment in bread, which could in an emergency be replaced by a gift of money. Nevertheless what is meant by [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]כְּסָתוֹת[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which were sewn and fastened on the wrists, and the [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]מִסְפָּחוֹת[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which were worn on the head and were made in various sizes according to the stature of the wearer. For [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]כסתות[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which interpreted as προσχεφάλαια “cushion for the head,” but scarcely correctly, whilst Origen, according to prefers the translation φυλαχτήρια, reference has been made to the Akkadian kasū “to bind, ban,” and it has been taken as “bandages” or “cords”. [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]מספחות[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which is translated loosely by as ἐπιβόλαια, is connected with the Akkadian sapāḫu “to scatter, spread out” and interpreted as an item of clothing set loosely on the head, as a veil or shawl. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Can we then see in the connection of the two items, cords and veil, the process of binding and loosening which was certainly elsewhere important in the history of religion?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Or do both features represent in their own way a “binding”? For binding and loosening all kinds of illustrative material has been adduced from excavations in Palestine, from Babylonian-Assyrian texts, especially the series of incantations maqlū and šurpū[/SIZE], as well as other ancient Near Eastern narrative sources.

[SIZE=9pt]Clearly in this instance you would need to consult the historical context & current up to date lexicons to illuminate this section of Scripture. ( I hope you can agree [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]J[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] )[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Once you can agree that the KJV (as do all versions and translations) came as a result of [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]scholarly preferences and theological interpretations; we can together bring to light some amazing truths concerning God's Word. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]God Bless[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Purity[/SIZE]

 

[Dodo_David]

Question answered...it is. :)

Continuing to beg the question is no way to demonstrate that what you say is true.

 

[whirlwind]

Gods Stamp of aproval????? Where ?????

In all His Love

Psalm 12:6 (666) The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

The number six - the weakness of man; manifestation of sin; evils of Satan
The number seven - Resurrection, Spiritual Completeness; Father's perfection


The King James was the seventh version of the English translation of God's Pure Words.


The seven English versions that make the English Bibles up to and including the Authorized Version fit the description in Psalm 12:6 of the words of the Lord being "purified seven times" are Tyndale's, Matthew's, Coverdale's, the Great Bible (printed by Whitechurch), the Geneva Bible, the Bishops' Bible, and the King James Bible.

The Wycliffe, Taverner, and Douay-Rheims Bibles, whatever merits any of them may have, are not part of the purified line God "authorized," of which the King James Authorized Version is God's last one -- purified seven times.
- The AV 1611: Purified SevenTimes, Dr. Laurence M. Vance



_______________________________________________________________________

[SIZE=9pt]An admirable attempt but the ESV & RV correctly interpreted this section of Scripture. The out-dated Strongs couldn't help you here either.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Correctly interpreted by the ESV & RV? So says Purity. :) [/SIZE]







[SIZE=9pt]18 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the women who sew magic bands upon all wrists, and make veils for the heads of persons of every stature[/SIZE], in the hunt for souls! Will you hunt down souls belonging to my people and keep your own souls alive?

[SIZE=9pt]There is a twofold oracle in Ezek 13:17which undeniably enters into a sphere of minor mantic acts and magic—a sphere which can only be put quite improperly under the catchword “prophetic.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]13:17 [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]“As for you, son of man, turn *toward the daughters of your people who are prophesying from their imagination. NET :)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]*[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]tnhttp://biblia.com/books/gs-netbible/Eze13.17http://biblia.com/books/gs-netbible/Eze13.17[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] Heb “set your face against.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]The Law:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Duet 18:9 [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, you must not learn the abhorrent practices of those nations. 18:10 There must never be found among you anyone who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire,12[/SIZE] anyone who practices divination,13 an omen reader,14 a soothsayer,15 a sorcerer,16

[SIZE=9pt]This passage sets this mantic activity in opposition to the “prophets” ([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]נביא[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]) given to Israel, as a Canaanite counterpart, even in its terminology. When we examine the perspective which enables Ezekiel to set these lesser activities under the catchword “prophetic,” then it is clearly the case that here also powers were employed which mediated “life” and “death.” Just as the word of the prophet legitimately gives death (See Ezek 11:13) and life (See Ezek 37:4), so, in the activity of these women of Israel ([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]המתנבאות מלבהן[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] See Ezek 13:17), death and life were dispensed in an unauthorized manner, and so Yahweh’s dominion was infringed upon.

[/SIZE]
[/QUOTE]



[SIZE=9pt]Why do you see false prophets and/or soothsayers as "women?" [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Why do you not see that, in Ezekiel 13...it is all about the "prophets of Israel" which is both men and women, that prophesy about peace when there is no peace? That is the subject...not some magic acts.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=9pt]Ezekiel 13:15-16 Thus will I accomplish My wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Ezek 13:18 In details much that is described here remains obscure in its exposition. The first saying, found in parallel to Ezek 13:3 as a [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]הוי[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] cry, describes the women who give their oracle for the small payment of a couple of handfuls of barley and some pieces of bread. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Barley and bread refer to the materials for magical practice, supporting this by references to barley (See Numbers 5:15 and pieces of bread in Lev 2:5 as elements of sacrifice, and by the Greek ἀλφιτομαντεία and χριθομαντεία. However, more correctly, we must point here to the analogy of 1 Sam 9:7 according to which a seer gives his oracle for a small payment in bread, which could in an emergency be replaced by a gift of money. Nevertheless what is meant by [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]כְּסָתוֹת[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which were sewn and fastened on the wrists, and the [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]מִסְפָּחוֹת[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which were worn on the head and were made in various sizes according to the stature of the wearer. For [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]כסתות[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which interpreted as προσχεφάλαια “cushion for the head,” but scarcely correctly, whilst Origen, according to prefers the translation φυλαχτήρια, reference has been made to the Akkadian kasū “to bind, ban,” and it has been taken as “bandages” or “cords”. [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]מספחות[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt], which is translated loosely by as ἐπιβόλαια, is connected with the Akkadian sapāḫu “to scatter, spread out” and interpreted as an item of clothing set loosely on the head, as a veil or shawl.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Sorry...too much in one paragraph. Let me take the simplicity of...barley and repeat...it is NOT ABOUT WOMEN and magic practices. It is about people (male and female) lying, deceiving, destroying the truth of God's Word for handfuls of bread...money. They write their own bibles, they sell books, they deceive at pulpits, they lie on forums...it is never ending with these "prophets of Israel."[/SIZE]


[SIZE=9pt]Ezekiel 13:19 [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?[/SIZE]

They lie for money.

[SIZE=9pt]Can we then see in the connection of the two items, cords and veil, the process of binding and loosening which was certainly elsewhere important in the history of religion?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Or do both features represent in their own way a “binding”? For binding and loosening all kinds of illustrative material has been adduced from excavations in Palestine, from Babylonian-Assyrian texts, especially the series of incantations maqlū and šurpū[/SIZE], as well as other ancient Near Eastern narrative sources.

[SIZE=9pt]Clearly in this instance you would need to consult the historical context & current up to date lexicons to illuminate this section of Scripture. ( I hope you can agree [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]J[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] )[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Nope...don't agree. :) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Once you can agree that the KJV (as do all versions and translations) came as a result of [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]scholarly preferences and theological interpretations; we can together bring to light some amazing truths concerning God's Word. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]God Bless[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Purity[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Thank you for the time you took with this but...I do not agree. [/SIZE]

 

[Purity]

Whirlwind

I understand "why" you do not agree, I think its plainly obvious where you are at in your learning. Its often telling when a person disagrees with everything which is written. You disagree with those Hebrew Scholars who interpreted the text and then disagreed with the other texts in support of the correct interpretation.

Maybe you could explain where under the law they were commanded to sew wrist bands of people and veil their followers :)

Thanks for the interaction

LW

 

[Dodo_David]

Psalm 12:6 (666) The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

The number six - the weakness of man; manifestation of sin; evils of Satan
The number seven - Resurrection, Spiritual Completeness; Father's perfection


The King James was the seventh version of the English translation of God's Pure Words.


The seven English versions that make the English Bibles up to and including the Authorized Version fit the description in Psalm 12:6 of the words of the Lord being "purified seven times" are Tyndale's, Matthew's, Coverdale's, the Great Bible (printed by Whitechurch), the Geneva Bible, the Bishops' Bible, and the King James Bible.

The Wycliffe, Taverner, and Douay-Rheims Bibles, whatever merits any of them may have, are not part of the purified line God "authorized," of which the King James Authorized Version is God's last one -- purified seven times.
- The AV 1611: Purified SevenTimes, Dr. Laurence M. Vance



_______________________________________________________________________

Now, that is what I call non sequitur.