It is good you agree now that Jesus was not in heaven but he was in the earth or Sheol. The caves some were cut out of rock, and others were earthen caves dug into the side of Mountains, we are not told which he was placed into, but He was placed into the earth with a rock place in front of the hole as the verses speak it. Though these things are not worth arguing over, at least you agree Jesus was in the tomb, not in heaven. As Matthew's statement of Jesusspeaking the sign the world would be given has helped us all understand that Jesus was not taken to heaven nor the Thief. My apology for making it sound like Jesus was sleeping with the theft. They both died that day and Paradise did not mean they went to heaven, for as Jesus himself said he would be in the heart of the earth. I do appreciate your thoughts and time you have spent with me on this matter. And your acceptance of the words of God in Matthew. In Christ's loveVickie
Lazarus And The Rich Man Is Speaking You Go To Heaven Upon Death
- Thread starter Vickie
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
I never said Jesus was in heaven I said his soul /spirit was not in his body and he went to of sheol/hades which is across the gulf from Paradise as we are told in the story of Lazuras ....I never said I disagreed with Mathew I said your idea of Christ being dead and buried and asleep with a thief was not correct ... I said the story of Lazuras is not a parable that one can just apply any meaning to one choses I said to absent from the body is to present lord ... I said the flesh returns to the dust from which it came and the spirit returns to God from which it came ...while I have no desire to argue with you but to show you the Word as everyone here as attempted to do ...I also do not want my words twisted
I used the new KJV and it is no different, for all bibles have bad translations through out them. True a good Student of the Word comes to see the miss translations scholars have made and the indoctrinations that have been woven into all translations including KJV.
I use all translations, and a library of books you know nothing about, including my access to the largest known theological Library in the world, which is down the road from where I live. Southwestern Baptist Seminary is extensive and rated as the largest in the Unites States. I go whenever I need to. Plus my private collection of Dictionaries, Concordances, bibles of the 1611 KJV and it just goes on and on. As it is my life to read and study and walk in the Words of God, I take no offense to your thoughts. For you speak on things you know little of, and your understanding is hedged by your teachers.
These two verses you quoted speak the exact same things, I miss your point in what you are trying to bring forth.
No, the heart of the earth means to be down in the earth, covered by the dirt in the sense, the side of a mountain would be cut into with a rock pushed into the entrance to keep predators from entering, such as wild animals. Jonah was down in the bottom of the ocean between the mountains in the sea, with reef etc, and God had him swallowed by the whale. which kept him in an enclosed place under the water. But it seems you are missing the point of what Jesus said, it was the three days and nights in this enclosed tomb of the whale that Jonah was placed into, that this was the sign the world would have, three days and three nights into the enclosed place, a tomb, made out of earth, which was to be the testimony to the world of the savior's death and resurrection. Unstable teachers who have not understood the words of the living God, have taken the word paradise and said Christ went to heaven on that one verse which takes away from the death and resurrection of the living God. They have tried to weaken the resurrection and death, which was prophesied in the scriptures to take place that men would know the power of the resurrection that comes through God. Which is our hope. Many have been taught this fable of Christ ascending to heaven at the cross and it is a lie, for Christ did not ascend until 40 days later as written in the verses. Why do we have the celebration of the Resurrection, if Christ went to heaven that day? Thanks for sharing your thought.IN Christ's precious truthsVickie
Hey good to see you nighmare, I'll bring one verse you haven't given much thought too, and tell me what you think, okay?I Thess 4:16 speaks of the coming of Christ, and the last sentence says: All the dead in Christ will come with him, right? Just who are the dead in Christ? Ever give that much thought? For the dead in Christ is all who have died in Christ, isn't it? If these who had died where in heaven then it would have said, those who are in heaven come down with Christ and those who are alive are gathered up. See, what happens when a man teaching and claiming false teachings, continue in them and they set up seminaries in many places and they just accept what they have been falsely taught through out the centuries. The Dead in Christ as Thessalonians speak are those who have died in Christ, every single Christian is being raised out of the ground just as Jesus said in John 5:28-29 and Daniel 12:1-2. The promise has never changed from what Israel was given to us Gentiles who are grafted into the SAME PROMISE, it is a fable invented to take the truth of what we Gentiles have been grafted into and destroy the truth and it is all in our churches. Our Lord could not and would not change the promise to Israel, and make it different for us who are grafted in. It would make God a respecter of persons, and a liar for the promise was to them first. We have had false teachers out here destroying the truth of the promise given to us grafted in. Thanks vickie
My apology, I thought you had said the thief went to heaven with Jesus the night they died. You believe in going to heaven and you have presented many verses used by that doctrinal teaching as grounds for it and Paradise is one of those words and that verse is used by those teaching that doctrine. Christina, my dear sister, Do you know what the promise is that was given to Israel, by God? Thanks Vickie
Yes I have considered it and I know scripture well as you and When Jesus told the thief he would see him in paradise that day thats exacatly what he meant as the Lazuras tells you can see across the gulf Jesus went to shoel/hades which is across the gulf from Paradise and he saw the theif in Paradise that day....Just as promised by our lord And you might want to rethink your thoughts on 1 thess4:16 because it is talking about the coming of the Lord at the 7th and last trump and he is descenting from where ??? I Thess. 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him.Its why the saints can cry out from under the alter they already with Christ and he tells them to rest a while longer and this word rest means simply to rest as one might sit down in the shade and rest from a hard days work ...Not to be dead and buried in the gound.
cedarhart
When good men do nothing, evil will triumph.Take a
- Nov 17, 2008
- 202
- 13
- 0
- 68
"I used the new KJV and it is no different, for all bibles have bad translations through out them. True a good Student of the Word comes to see the miss translations scholars have made and the indoctrinations that have been woven into all translations including KJV. I use all translations, and a library of books you know nothing about, including my access to the largest known theological Library in the world, which is down the road from where I live. Southwestern Baptist Seminary is extensive and rated as the largest in the Unites States. I go whenever I need to. Plus my private collection of Dictionaries, Concordances, bibles of the 1611 KJV and it just goes on and on. As it is my life to read and study and walk in the Words of God, I take no offense to your thoughts. For you speak on things you know little of, and your understanding is hedged by your teachers." Yep, your self taught methods and a "new" version of the KJV is obvious. And one of the first things a Christian learns is not to pass judgement on others. I am very well versed on Scripture and you are the one who speaks on things that you know little of. You also have no idea what I know or how I study as I'm sure it would be foreign to you. It seems that you have been so unsure of all of your own conclusions that you indulged yourself in a "collection" of man's references and their different opinions. They can be interesting to read but I have no need to trust their words as God provided us with all we need to know in the in His Holy Scriptures. If you truly studied with understanding you would not have to prove yourself such a profound scholar as it would be apparent to all. You may have a KJV and a Strong's Concordance, but it obvious to us non-learned and misled folks that you have not listened or understood their words.My brother has a library "collection" such as yours. He also has educational degrees up the wazzoo. He claims to be so knowledgeable that us mere mortals cannot possibly comprehend all that he knows. He is very intelligent and "book smart"; he is also an educated idot. He has very little common sense and is constantly imposing his self-proclaim ideas onto others as if he is the only source of reason and has been "clued in" where all others have failed. Much like yourself according to your words. A strong, faithful, loyal, loving, discerning Child of God will also have tack and finesse when sharing what the Scripture has provided for us and not make their own doctrine. Although your theories are interesting, they hold little weight with the original Hebrew text which the original KJV holds its standards to closer than any other "Book".
Dear Vickie, with all due respect, in the bible God had clearly shown us NOT to do this. And this is what you are clearly doing. It's just cruel and blasphemy to twist your Father's words to your own ideas.Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.You are leaning onto you own understanding and this is where God clearly told us not to do it. God's Words is above ALL. However, in the bible, God had clearly shown that we are not to allow to take His Words away or to add them. (Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18-19) We are suppose to heed God's warnings, Not men's warnings.Blessings
Dearest Vickie please understand us here it's not just a differnt belief that has us all so upset we see that dailly here. But differnt beliefs are normally due to not understanding scripture or one following their relgious doctrines..this not your case .. Yor are not ignorant of scripture nor are you following a religious doctrine ..its obviously not the case here. Its your twisting of scripture your applying your own rules own interptations you seem to just jump to any conclusions that furthers your ideas ...without hearing and seeing ... There are rules to scripture interptation .... And when a verse doesnt fit your idea you just twist it to make it fit and/or Ignore it completely and/or say it says something else ... Its your changing of the word of God that worries us... for you as well as those trying to learn ... And as Jordan points out God warns against this practice Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understandingthis is what you are doingExample: you have given Paradise your own meaning ...where are you getting this meaning? you say we all misunderstand it and you have it right. the word is used 3 times in all scripture and the only way to understand it is to go to the original word in which meaning #3 would seem to aline exactly with the Lazuras story ... Yet you have decided Lazuras is a parable and means what you alone deem it to mean and paradise means what you say it means ....and then say this is Gods Word ... This can only be if one assigns their own meaning to things, which is what you are doing ... paradeisos:1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters2) a garden, pleasure grounda) grove, park3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world5) heaven
Hey waz up....I cant say all the dead in Christ will come with him the scripture says this::: 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise firstI cant say Christ will bring "all" but a good number......Yes I know who the dead in Christ are,,,yes it is those that have died in Christ......Yes,,,Christ will bring some ,,,maybe all ,,,but probably some with him at his return....Yes we will be gathered back to Christ (I hope your not thinking rapture cause that aint what the text reads)Also would you like to discuss Daniel 12,,,,cause it has a topic which you seemed to miss the topic is Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." What time?????The end time (tribulation)Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Remember the topic is the endtime,,,,,you are making it out to be about people that died years before satans role as antichrist please stay on subject.....We can discuss if you likeJohn 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,"John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of Life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Again this as a subject I fear you are missing it......If you understood where Christ went at death you would understand John 5:28-29
cedarhart
When good men do nothing, evil will triumph.Take a
- Nov 17, 2008
- 202
- 13
- 0
- 68
There is a rather lengthy study in 3 parts regarding some of the verses mentioned in this thread: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/10459-no-rapture/Vickie,It's very interesting that you do not respect God's Word enough to capitalize "Bible" but do other titles. Just wondering why?"Plus my private collection of Dictionaries, Concordances, bibles of the 1611 KJV and it just goes on and on.I used the new KJV and it is no different, for all bibles have bad translations through out them"
Hades is beneath the ground, the sheol is the ground, paradise is the sleep that takes place and they all three refer to the same thing, DEATH. Jesus did NOT SAY he would "SEE HIM" Jesus said, "TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME" That is taking the verses out of context completely to say that JESUS SAID:"I WILL SEE YOU". Let's look at the verse KJV: Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. This clearly says the thief is "WITH JESUS". Jesus went to the heart of the earth and the thief went to the same place. Jesus said the thief would be with him. And you yourself keep making the true statement Jesus did not go to heaven upon death,
Christina, read the verse again. Who are the DEAD IN CHRIST that "SHALL RISE FIRST?"I Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:I Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. This verse speaks of the Saints who have died in Christ, they are raised up and Paul says they are brought with him, then they are called the DEAD IN CHRIST. The dead in Christ are those who have died knowing the LORD. When Christ comes and reigns upon the earth soon, the DEAD in CHRIST will RISE UP from the Sheol and be given eternal life at Christ's coming, they are raised first then we who are alive are changed. This is true because this is the promise given to Israel, which we have been grafted into also. We receive the same promise of a resurrection from the dead at his coming. They never go to heaven and neither will any one who is grafted in. For God is not a respecter of person in this matter. WE can not be given anything greater than they are given. The verses tell us the earth is their inheritance along with us sharing it.
Why does God tell the Saints to "REST" a little longer? What does the word REST mean? Why is Altar used instead of heaven? Those who are under the altar are all those who "HAVE BEEN SLAIN" and are resting, just as the verse says. As far as the dead rising first, the verse 15 says those left alive will certainly NOT PRECEDE those who have "FALLEN ASLEEP". That verse 16 says will be raised up first from the graves. These are all the Saints that have ever died upon the whole earth. If you can not see the fullness of the verses quoted and do not accept these verses and all that they are saying, there is no argument from me. It is not my place to belittle you or make you feel less than with your understanding of these verses. Our King will soon be here and His words will be known upon the whole earth. Rev 14:6-7 speaks of the time of Christ's coming when the angel will appear and tell all the nations, tribes, and people of the earth to worship the Lord who has made all things. Our king will reign upon the earth with all people. We do not go to heaven but live our eternal life here on the earth with our King. The promise made to God's chosen and elected. In Christ's precious words Vickie
The bible holds the words of life, the words that heal and set us free.Waz up with you? Your teaching is different. Or we can say mine is different. I find the promise is not understood by you that was given to the Israelites and to thosegrafted in. So, it is where we would have to start at. Are you familiar with verses that speak on the promise? Do you know any and can bring them forth? LOl VickieWaz up with you? Your teaching is different. Or we can say mine is different. I find the promise is not understood by you that was given to the Israelites and to thosegrafted in. So, it is where we would have to start at. Are you familiar with verses that speak on the promise? Do you know any and can bring them forth? LOl Vickie
Where is your proof that this is what Paradise is????? you have none its strickly your own thought you havent a single thing to base this on.I Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. again you add your own thoughts not Gods Words of course he will bring them with him because he is desenting/coming down from heaven where these that are asleep(which means dead) are already... he comes with his saints this is why they are first And you have no proof that is what rest means other than you say so but God never says this ... So again you have nothing but the way you chose to see it despite all the verse you choose not to address or put some abstract meaning too .... So you have made Gods Word fit your view rather than bend your view to Gods word and to do this you give your own meanings to things like Paradise which you havent a sheard of proof infact You flat out deny what it means to make your theroy work
John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." This verse covers two things, and there is a double witness to this. First of all, As it is written in I Peter 3:18, 19, 20, that Christ immediately after giving up the Ghost, (that is to say died on the cross); He went to those that were held captive, not physically but in their soul bodies. He went to those that lived all the way back "to the time of Noah", which means "the beginning" which then means back to Adam, and even to those of the six day creation before Adam, that were spiritually dead.I Peter 3:18, 19, and 20; "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" [18] "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison," [19] "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." [20] These souls were spiritually dead because they could not overcome the penalty of sin for being under the law. Jesus had not paid the price yet. But when Christ had paid the price on the cross, God was fair and Jesus went to them and offered to them the same opportunity that we have today, to accept eternal life. Isaiah, Daniel and Jeremiah all were born before Christ went to the cross, don't you think these prophets of God have the same right to choose that you and I do? Of course they do.The second important point here is dealing with the transfiguring of the human body into the spiritual body. There are two men in the bible that the Bible records as not dying, but being taken by God. These two are Enoch, and Elijah.Genesis 5:23, 24; "And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:" [23] "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." [24] II Kings 2:11; "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." These two never saw death in the flesh, but were taken. Then we saw in Matthew 17:1-3 where Jesus became transfigured before three of His disciples, to be a witness of what would happen following His death.Matthew 17:1-3; "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,"Matthew 17:2 "And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light."Matthew 17:3 "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him."Jesus was showing those three Peter James and John, the writer of this gospel, that witnessed this transformation what would happen to the body of Christ. It would be the same thing that happened to Elijah, and Moses.; Moses being the law, and Elijah being the prophet. Jesus even went one step beyond this; in that He brought many of them that were buried out there in a hole in the ground around Jerusalem out of their graves, when He came out of the tomb. From this act caused many in that day to believe, these souls appeared to many on the streets. These were well known souls that everyone knew, and they bear witness of Christ and many believed. The flesh bodies did not come out of the grave, but their spiritual bodies were made visible to those living in the physical dimension. This was all done so the it could be documented that there is life after death, and Jesus had conquered death.John 5:26 "For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;"This is to say that the heavenly Father is the fountain of life, and He allowed Christ also to become the fountain of life. Both offices of the Godhead are life givers, which is in reference to spiritual life, and the life of the soul and spirit. When you accept Christ, then you become part of that fountain of Christ. You become part of the body of Christ, and when you speak to lost souls, Christ's Spirit then awakens them. They then can enter into that Spiritual life just as your are.John 5:27 "And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man."God the Father gave the authority to Jesus Christ to execute judgment over all men on earth.John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,"This again is what we talked about in I Peter 3:18-20, when those that believed came out of the holding place for souls of the physically dead, in their soul bodies they visibly walked the streets of Jerusalem. Jesus is the fountain of life, and when Jesus offered life to those spiritually dead souls, they sprang to life from the authority of Jesus. God treats all His children the same, regardless of their race or what period of time they were born within this flesh age.John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of Life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." This is saying that after each soul has heard Jesus' voice, and those that have accepted Him and repented, Jesus is giving them eternal life, which is "the resurrection of life". Then those that have heard Jesus and chose not receive Him, will have done evil in refusing the mercies of God, and their souls are damned to hell fire. Don't overlook the fact that there will also be the time of the Millennium age, whereby the teaching and discipline will come prior to the final judgment day.Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us. Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age souls are judged by works only.Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.
This is a good post and if what Vicki said is true then Moses and Elias would not been able to appear,,,,,,because they would have been lying in a grave waiting on the return of Christ,,,,,but of course they werent in graves.........
Dear Vickie, may I ask you a simple question... Where is Jesus is at right now? On Earth or in Heaven or something else? Please provide documentation for this. I would greatly appreciate it.
Heb 10:24 For Christ did not enter a man made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; He entered Heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Ever wondered why the Saints in the ground who came up out of the ground at Christ's resurrection and weren't taken to heaven? But dwelt on the EARTH?Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, G3419 Matt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Because all of the promised people including the elect come up out of the ground and are brought directly into Israel. Our inheritance. Ezek 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29We have to be in the grave to be resurrected at the sound of HIS VOICE and we have to be judged first. No man goes into the Kingdom of God without judgement first. Will you go to the right or to the left?
Why did this scripture say... then?Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.II Corinthians 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.This scripture quite disprove your theory. We can't be in both places at once.Vickie do you not realize that in Matthew 27:53 that Christ opened the graves? Why? Cause it happened after his resurrection. To be honest, If Christ has not yet died on the coss for our sins... the whole world will still be in the graves. Sorry, your theory holds no leg to stand. You are not only twisting scriptures... you are also twisting TIME events taking place in the whole entire bible. God warns up to not lean unto our understanding of a scripture. (Proverbs 3:5-7) Why? Because the scripture cannot be broken. (John 10:35)Do away with the traditions of men or else you will be in trouble with God... I love you Vickie, but God warns us many times not to do this blasphemous.
Hey Nightmare, how are you? God wrote for us a couple of verses that tell us where Enoch and Elijah are. Disproving the teaching that Enoch is in heaven. Let me say this first. It appears in Hebrews 11:5 the teaching of this doctrine has flavored the translators translation of this verse, and a few others I've noticed through out the bible. But clarification is given by reading the same chapter 11 verse 13, and verse 39 which contradicts the teaching of Enoch going to heaven, or anyone, for it says all these people were still living by faith when they died.....BUT NONE OF THEM RECEIVED THE THINGS PROMISED. The promise as written is eternal life. Enoch did not receive the promise, nor any one who died in the faith, they like everyone are waiting in the grave to be called up at the sound of His voice when the King returns. As you read further God says he has prepared a city for them, the New Jerusalem which is coming down out of Heaven. Zion which is in Israel, the New Jerusalem, that the Ransomed and the Redeemed dwell forever as Rev 20 describes the 1000 yrs reign with us and Christ on the Earth. God is not going to make any of us perfect, by giving us eternal life without them. Hebrews 11:39 All through the bible God speaks of them being made perfect at his coming. They like us will all face judgment from the Lord. This event in Romans is what it is all about, not allowing anyone to remain any where but the grave to wait for this: Then we have Paul speaking of the Resurrection, not going to heaven, which goes with Daniel 12:2 some being resurrected to everlasting life, others to everlasting condemnation. Romans 2:6 (the Righteous Judgment of God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (until we are judged in this we sleep in the ground at death waiting. )8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,This righteous judgment has to take place, for all of us, therefore this statement alone makes it impossible for man to be given ETERNAL LIFE upon dying. 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive what is due him. God has this judgment sit up to take place at his coming, and this knowledge of truth destroys the teachings that God would let anyone into the kingdom of God to live before JUDGEMENT HAPPENS> amen. The blood covers our sins, but Judgment has to take place for the good and the bad we have all done, making it impossible for God to allow anyone from death and the grave where we are all held until He comes for the Judging. Therefore knowing these things called judgment upon all, some will rise to be given eternal LIFE and judgment on those who have NOT OBEYED the TRUTH, will rise to everlasting condemnation just as both Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 says. These two verse are what Paul is speaking of in Romans. Vickie
Good question, Jordan. First let me say we are the Dust that goes back to the ground, then the breath that God gave us, which is the spirit of LIFE, called breathe that goes back to him, which makes us DEAD, turning us back to DUST to wait for that same breath to be put back in us at HIS COMING, the resurrection of the DUST, the DEAD.
You are miss reading what Paul says leaving out the very point of Paul's statement: To be at home in this body as our focus keeps us from being focused on God, is not allowing us to be present with the Lord in his Spirit that has been given to us as a guarantee. For God has made us to be servants unto Him in His Spirit, while we are in this earthly TENT. (verse 1) should we be destroyed, we still have hope because of the Spirit given to us as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. Just what is to come? Paul tells us what is to come, the resurrection, which these verses from Paul speak of righteous Judgment that must come before eternal life is given in Romans. Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the GentileThis is the what Daniel is speaking in Daniel 12:2 When the Son of Man comes those in the ground will be raised up, some to eternal life others to everlasting condemnation. This Judgment as Daniel, Paul, John and others have written about and Jesus' very one words in John 5:28-29 says until this judgment takes place no eternal life is given to any man. If you continue reading in Romans 2:11 Paul says: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. This is the very words of Paul which this whole chapter 2 of Romans is about. Paul letting the people know that Judgment comes first before eternal life can be given. 2 Corinthians 5 which you use for going to heaven, also speaks of the judgment in verse 10. All these verse tell us eternal life can NOT BE GIVEN,in the kingdom of God until you have been judged by God at his coming.
Jordan, You are miss reading what I have quoted. The Saints came up out of the ground and walked into the city, Jerusalem. They were removed from their graves and not taken to Heaven upon Jesus' resurrection. Not at all meaning they are lost. The verses of these Saints prove that John 3:13 is saying: Which should open your understanding that NO ONE has ascended into heaven nor can, except the Son of God. John 3:13. Here we have Jesus saying NO MAN has ascended into heaven, which includes Enoch and Elijah not going there, for Jesus said this himself in John 3:13.
Blasphemous is speaking against the spirit of God, verses which speak against others teachings of the Words of God is not blasphemous. You are very sweet and I care about you also Jordan. Jesus says no one has ascended, and I say I believe him, meaning no man has ascended, that is truth. I don't believe man when he says a all who die go to heaven. I see verse after verse in the bible that say you sleep and are resurrected at his coming, for this is found in the bible and I have shared these verses with you. Should you not believe that statement, I am not here to degrade you or mock you nor make fun of you. You are a creation of God's and I above all things, must treat you with respect even in a disagreement with you. If you would prefer not to continue in this, it is okay with me. It is God who we seek for truth in matters like this. I asked Our Lord directly and these verses have been shown to me by our Lord. I trust him, I have faith to believe and hope in these verses to be resurrected and given eternal life at his coming. I think it is beautiful and comforting to know this truth and to live my life being led by the spirit to receive this gift of Eternal life when he comes. The only difference is you feel you receive it instantly upon death. I read I sleep and wait for it as Israel does and the Gentile, also as Paul said. LOL Vickie
This pretty much says it all “Where does the soul go after death? Does the soul sleep and remain with the body until the final resurrection on the Last Day? Or does the soul leave the body at death, to be with the Lord in Paradise (if Christian), or to a place of punishment (non-Christian)? ]The Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and some Torah followers believe in soul sleep this popular belief of the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Soul sleep” is the destiny of every Torah-keeping believer. Yet, the Old Testament is always interpreted in light of the New Testament in proper Scripture interpretation and never vice versa—the New Testament is the fulfillment and culmination of the Old. When Scripture interprets Scripture in proper hermeneutics, the heretical doctrine of soul sleep is easily disproved. So you either do not belive in Christ if you are a (Torah follwer) ...or you are agree with cults to belive this either way its not scripture 1 cor. 15 says16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.[/b]44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.To be absent from the body is to present with the Lord...... Dust returns to dust from which it came spirit returns to God from which it came this is the Christain Belief this is whats wrtten in Gods Word ...So debating it is worthless as its not a Christian doctrine therefore does not belong on this site which explains why not a single posters has agreeded with this its a non Christian and or cult belief .... Its not often we all agree on a doctrine and now I better understand why this is...Whether or not we all agree or disagree on Christian doctrines .......We all it would seem agree when one is non Christian ....
- Status
Similar threads
